Factory Tour in June - Page 2

foretm · 06-18-2015, 11:05 AM

Sorry folks, work was nuts after being gone a week, hasn't left me much time to provide feedback to the forum.

Factory tour was great. Saw a lot of Berkshires on the line, couple Charlestons, and one Legacy that had just come on the line, it was a 340KP. Was able to see the vacuum-bonding (SP?) process and each station of the build, from MORryde equipped chassis to finished product.

Interesting to note that it’s easy to recognize a particular model being built as the Legacy is the only one with steel wheels, Berkshire has aluminum wheels with only a single rear axle, and Charleston is aluminum wheels with a tag axle. Couple things that stood out to me that I liked:

All plumbing lines run from the wet bay to the end product with no couplings, "T"s, or "90"s, which helps to reduce the possibility of leakage. All tubing bends have a plastic piece that maintains the radius and prevents kinking.
All "panels" (roof, walls, floor) are framed in 2" aluminum or steel (floor is steel on Legacy and Charleston, aluminum on Berkshire, walls and roof are aluminum) and vacuum-bonded with fiberglass on each side. The floor is an 8'x24' piece of board bonded to the steel frame (Legacy) which is then bolted to the MORryde chassis. This helps with floor creaking.
Steel frame behind the top part of the front cap adds strength to the RV being tied into the chassis.

Here's the suggestions/questions I gave them based on feedback here and elsewhere, and the responses from Bob Richardson on those items.

Consider running HDMI cables to all TVs. It can cost the consumer upwards of $300-500 dollars to get HD signals sent to those TVs either over the coax or wirelessly.

Consider installing a BlueRay player instead of a DVD, should you decide to go with HDMI cables.

Consider mounting the external TV a bit higher and leave us room underneath to add a sound bar inside the compartment.
- I agree with you on most of your suggestions, running HDMI to all TV's, Blue Ray DVD, Sound bar for the exterior TV. This has all been brought up in our meetings and consideration is always a possibility, but we look at numerous product enhancements and eventually have to choose by priority relative to price point. Not saying yes or no at this point but it will be taken seriously.
- HDMI cables are included in the Berkshire and Charleston

Consider the Truma AquaGo water heater. I realize it’s likely more expensive, however it seems superior given its ability to maintain temperature with different flow rates. Also allows for instant hot water if the plumbing is designed to be circular. Something that you could use on the Berkshire or Charleston.
- Truma AquaGo® provides instant hot water while on the road
- Truma AquaGo
- The hot water system, we just made the move to Atwood, a highly respected company that has been around forever and we feel at this point the enhanced features of more BTU's and using it just like home, we are good to go. Do note that we have retained your suggested Truma System. Atwood at this point offers a great support system for both the manufacturer and the consumer.

Consider running a wire chase from the dash to the roof so the customer can add additional electronics which need external antennas, CBs, GPS, XM, etc.
- Wire chase in the dash area, the dash system currently includes GPS, XM-Sirius ready, we will look at the CB lead.

Re-consider the choice to switch from stainless to Corian sinks in the bathrooms. A number of folks on the forums are not happy with that decision, including myself.
- The sink issue we switched due to customer/dealer requests, we will have to keep an eye on that one. Haven't had any customer complaints at this point.
- Dana, I know you and I are on the same page on this one as well as Rick I believe... so let them know if you agree with the change or not.

How many coaches come out of this plant annually as a whole?
How many of those are Legacys/Berkshires/Charlestons?
- Last year we produced in excess of 500 units. The breakdown would be around 200 Legacy, over 200 Berkshire and close to 100 Charleston.
How long does it take for a Legacy/Berkshire/Charleston to be produced from MORryde chassis to finished product?
- To produce a unit at our plant. There will be 2 weeks at Mor-Ryde and an additional 4 weeks though the production process, including paint. Actual time approximately 6 weeks, provided we don't have any component delays from our multiple suppliers. We do work off of a backlog, so from order to completion we quote 6 to 8 weeks, sometimes longer.
What processes do you have to verify systems after a coach is built?
- Processes in house for systems check are in 3 stages, we have a "Traveler" inspector that works the line during process, a PDI systems check at the end of the line and a second PDI systems check prior to shipping. There is roughly 10 days in between the 2 PDI's due to paint.
Why is the Legacy built with a steel floor frame when the Berkshire and Charleston are built with aluminum framing in the floor? What steps if any are taken to prevent corrosion on the steel floor framing?
- The Legacy and the Charleston both have steel floors and the Berkshire has aluminum. The only reason, early on when the Berkshire first was introduced, it needed more carrying capacity and aluminum was the answer, today we still build it that way because simply it works fine and the ride and drive are excellent...if it isn't broke why fix it! To prevent corrosion on the steel flooring, first it is vaccubonded and the edges are sealed with a rust inhibitor as is the substructure from Mor-Ryde.

As for the other questions:

Exhaust tubes – Forgot to ask…

Schwintek slide mechanism differences between Legacy and Palazzo. Didn’t ask, know the answer.
- There is no difference in the mechanisms. It’s important to note that the overwhelming majority (not all) of the issues with the Palazzo Schwinteks were on the 33.2 and 36.1. The 33.2 has the dinette, kitchen, refer, pantry, and W/D in the full-wall slide. The 36.1 is ~3’ longer than the 33.2 and also had the Dinette, Sofa, Pantry, W/D, and master dresser/closet and TV. So basically the Schwintek mechanisms were underpowered for such large slides when originally using the 300:1 motors. Add in the fact that a lot of the slides were not square, which the Schwinteks are very sensitive to, and you end up with what you have. Thor has switched to the 500:1 motors for more torque, and added a third rail to help with putting that torque to the slide. I believe they likely began a closer QC on the slide room build to help with out of square, but you never know. I do not know if FR switched to 3 rails, that would be something to ask or determine if interested in the 340KP.

Emergency slide retract on 340KP – Sorry, also slipped my mind, however I doubt there is a much better answer than the one you have. I thought you could get to the motors to disengage from outside the rig, not sure. If not I assume you would have to remove the fascia from the slide room. On getting it back in, human power won’t be enough, you’ll need a come-along, or some type of machinery I would assume. I doubt there’s a real good answer here. BTW, did not get to meet Mitch, however he was there in that facility. Did get to meet some of the factory service guys, very knowledgeable folks.

In response to these answers I’ve sent the following asking for more clarification, currently waiting on a response.

Can you give me some information on the Atwood model being used in the Legacy? I would like to do some research on it. See below, someone who has a new 2015 is saying the Atwood is not working well for them either. The adjustment knob is outside? There’s numerous threads on the Girard, but since it’s no longer in production, no sense in beating that dead horse.
- http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...uff-79256.html

The wire chase from dash to roof was mentioned because of this thread. The poster mentioned that his GPS antenna was actually coiled up and hanging under the dash behind the radio. Pay special attention to post #6, where Magnadyne not only knew of the issue, but said that FR does it this way by default sometimes. The fact that Magnadyne knows this means it was not an isolated incident. Since its original equipment, shouldn’t it be installed properly with the antenna on the roof and the wire run from the roof to the dash? My suggestion is more for aftermarket items, and that there be an easy way that the consumer can run wires from the dash to the roof for items such as Sirius/XM, CB, etc... however not running the GPS antenna on the included unit is something else.
- http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...sue-75744.html

Can you tell me what the approximate insulated R values are for the roof, walls, and floor?

I apologize for being long-winded… lots of information here, hope it’s helpful to someone.

Thanks,
Mike

conceptumator · 06-18-2015, 05:21 PM

Thanks for the update on your visit - really appreciated.

Strange you noticed the steel wheels on the Legacy. When I first started looking, aluminum wheels were on my wish list. The salesman first told me the Legacy had aluminum, but when I pointed out they were steel he seemed a little confused. Maybe because the brochure they pass out for the Legacy indicates them to be aluminum? Sure does - I have a copy of it. Alas, I knew they were steel when I bought it, so that's a future enhancement, maybe when I need tires in a few years. For now, the way the set up the stems on the inner duals is really easy to work with so I'm happy.

Not sure if they understood the question on the Sirius antenna thing. I tried to find out if it was Sirius ready or actually had Sirius and the antenna installed before the delivery and no one could tell me. I happened to have the Sirius module (actually XM) from my last RV and just popped it in myself, but the booger is the antenna. Doesn't work very well on the dash and I don't want to put a hole in the roof for it.

Thanks again - hope you had a nice trip.

captnrick3 · 06-18-2015, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by foretm

Sorry folks, work was nuts after being gone a week, hasn't left me much time to provide feedback to the forum.

Factory tour was great. Saw a lot of Berkshires on the line, couple Charlestons, and one Legacy that had just come on the line, it was a 340KP. Was able to see the vacuum-bonding (SP?) process and each station of the build, from MORryde equipped chassis to finished product.

Interesting to note that it’s easy to recognize a particular model being built as the Legacy is the only one with steel wheels, Berkshire has aluminum wheels with only a single rear axle, and Charleston is aluminum wheels with a tag axle. Couple things that stood out to me that I liked:

All plumbing lines run from the wet bay to the end product with no couplings, "T"s, or "90"s, which helps to reduce the possibility of leakage. All tubing bends have a plastic piece that maintains the radius and prevents kinking.
All "panels" (roof, walls, floor) are framed in 2" aluminum or steel (floor is steel on Legacy and Charleston, aluminum on Berkshire, walls and roof are aluminum) and vacuum-bonded with fiberglass on each side. The floor is an 8'x24' piece of board bonded to the steel frame (Legacy) which is then bolted to the MORryde chassis. This helps with floor creaking.
Steel frame behind the top part of the front cap adds strength to the RV being tied into the chassis.

Here's the suggestions/questions I gave them based on feedback here and elsewhere, and the responses from Bob Richardson on those items.

Consider running HDMI cables to all TVs. It can cost the consumer upwards of $300-500 dollars to get HD signals sent to those TVs either over the coax or wirelessly.

Consider installing a BlueRay player instead of a DVD, should you decide to go with HDMI cables.

Consider mounting the external TV a bit higher and leave us room underneath to add a sound bar inside the compartment.
- I agree with you on most of your suggestions, running HDMI to all TV's, Blue Ray DVD, Sound bar for the exterior TV. This has all been brought up in our meetings and consideration is always a possibility, but we look at numerous product enhancements and eventually have to choose by priority relative to price point. Not saying yes or no at this point but it will be taken seriously.
- HDMI cables are included in the Berkshire and Charleston

Consider the Truma AquaGo water heater. I realize it’s likely more expensive, however it seems superior given its ability to maintain temperature with different flow rates. Also allows for instant hot water if the plumbing is designed to be circular. Something that you could use on the Berkshire or Charleston.
- Truma AquaGo® provides instant hot water while on the road
- Truma AquaGo
- The hot water system, we just made the move to Atwood, a highly respected company that has been around forever and we feel at this point the enhanced features of more BTU's and using it just like home, we are good to go. Do note that we have retained your suggested Truma System. Atwood at this point offers a great support system for both the manufacturer and the consumer.

Consider running a wire chase from the dash to the roof so the customer can add additional electronics which need external antennas, CBs, GPS, XM, etc.
- Wire chase in the dash area, the dash system currently includes GPS, XM-Sirius ready, we will look at the CB lead.

Re-consider the choice to switch from stainless to Corian sinks in the bathrooms. A number of folks on the forums are not happy with that decision, including myself.
- The sink issue we switched due to customer/dealer requests, we will have to keep an eye on that one. Haven't had any customer complaints at this point.
- Dana, I know you and I are on the same page on this one as well as Rick I believe... so let them know if you agree with the change or not.

How many coaches come out of this plant annually as a whole?
How many of those are Legacys/Berkshires/Charlestons?
- Last year we produced in excess of 500 units. The breakdown would be around 200 Legacy, over 200 Berkshire and close to 100 Charleston.
How long does it take for a Legacy/Berkshire/Charleston to be produced from MORryde chassis to finished product?
- To produce a unit at our plant. There will be 2 weeks at Mor-Ryde and an additional 4 weeks though the production process, including paint. Actual time approximately 6 weeks, provided we don't have any component delays from our multiple suppliers. We do work off of a backlog, so from order to completion we quote 6 to 8 weeks, sometimes longer.
What processes do you have to verify systems after a coach is built?
- Processes in house for systems check are in 3 stages, we have a "Traveler" inspector that works the line during process, a PDI systems check at the end of the line and a second PDI systems check prior to shipping. There is roughly 10 days in between the 2 PDI's due to paint.
Why is the Legacy built with a steel floor frame when the Berkshire and Charleston are built with aluminum framing in the floor? What steps if any are taken to prevent corrosion on the steel floor framing?
- The Legacy and the Charleston both have steel floors and the Berkshire has aluminum. The only reason, early on when the Berkshire first was introduced, it needed more carrying capacity and aluminum was the answer, today we still build it that way because simply it works fine and the ride and drive are excellent...if it isn't broke why fix it! To prevent corrosion on the steel flooring, first it is vaccubonded and the edges are sealed with a rust inhibitor as is the substructure from Mor-Ryde.

As for the other questions:

Exhaust tubes – Forgot to ask…

Schwintek slide mechanism differences between Legacy and Palazzo. Didn’t ask, know the answer.
- There is no difference in the mechanisms. It’s important to note that the overwhelming majority (not all) of the issues with the Palazzo Schwinteks were on the 33.2 and 36.1. The 33.2 has the dinette, kitchen, refer, pantry, and W/D in the full-wall slide. The 36.1 is ~3’ longer than the 33.2 and also had the Dinette, Sofa, Pantry, W/D, and master dresser/closet and TV. So basically the Schwintek mechanisms were underpowered for such large slides when originally using the 300:1 motors. Add in the fact that a lot of the slides were not square, which the Schwinteks are very sensitive to, and you end up with what you have. Thor has switched to the 500:1 motors for more torque, and added a third rail to help with putting that torque to the slide. I believe they likely began a closer QC on the slide room build to help with out of square, but you never know. I do not know if FR switched to 3 rails, that would be something to ask or determine if interested in the 340KP.

Emergency slide retract on 340KP – Sorry, also slipped my mind, however I doubt there is a much better answer than the one you have. I thought you could get to the motors to disengage from outside the rig, not sure. If not I assume you would have to remove the fascia from the slide room. On getting it back in, human power won’t be enough, you’ll need a come-along, or some type of machinery I would assume. I doubt there’s a real good answer here. BTW, did not get to meet Mitch, however he was there in that facility. Did get to meet some of the factory service guys, very knowledgeable folks.

In response to these answers I’ve sent the following asking for more clarification, currently waiting on a response.

Can you give me some information on the Atwood model being used in the Legacy? I would like to do some research on it. See below, someone who has a new 2015 is saying the Atwood is not working well for them either. The adjustment knob is outside? There’s numerous threads on the Girard, but since it’s no longer in production, no sense in beating that dead horse.
- http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...uff-79256.html

The wire chase from dash to roof was mentioned because of this thread. The poster mentioned that his GPS antenna was actually coiled up and hanging under the dash behind the radio. Pay special attention to post #6, where Magnadyne not only knew of the issue, but said that FR does it this way by default sometimes. The fact that Magnadyne knows this means it was not an isolated incident. Since its original equipment, shouldn’t it be installed properly with the antenna on the roof and the wire run from the roof to the dash? My suggestion is more for aftermarket items, and that there be an easy way that the consumer can run wires from the dash to the roof for items such as Sirius/XM, CB, etc... however not running the GPS antenna on the included unit is something else.
- http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...sue-75744.html

Can you tell me what the approximate insulated R values are for the roof, walls, and floor?

I apologize for being long-winded… lots of information here, hope it’s helpful to someone.

Thanks,
Mike

Not long winded at all. Thanks so much, that was a lot of work. Very informative. I would like to go there myself. When we get new rigs we always think we have the latest of the latest I.E. Girard water heater. I guess not always. However, ours is working OK so far.

Since my schwintek slide motor failure, I am working with Randy at the plant to see if maybe I can add some more rollers to reduce movement/drag etc. on the slide. I'm nervous about that now, it's a sickening feeling to be stuck with a slide out and no way to move.

Vince and Charlette · 06-18-2015, 09:20 PM

Perhaps the worst thing about the Georgetown is sway. Did they provide any insights on that issue or their recommended way to resolve it?

foretm · 06-19-2015, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conceptumator

Thanks for the update on your visit - really appreciated.

Strange you noticed the steel wheels on the Legacy. When I first started looking, aluminum wheels were on my wish list. The salesman first told me the Legacy had aluminum, but when I pointed out they were steel he seemed a little confused. Maybe because the brochure they pass out for the Legacy indicates them to be aluminum? Sure does - I have a copy of it. Alas, I knew they were steel when I bought it, so that's a future enhancement, maybe when I need tires in a few years. For now, the way the set up the stems on the inner duals is really easy to work with so I'm happy.

Not sure if they understood the question on the Sirius antenna thing. I tried to find out if it was Sirius ready or actually had Sirius and the antenna installed before the delivery and no one could tell me. I happened to have the Sirius module (actually XM) from my last RV and just popped it in myself, but the booger is the antenna. Doesn't work very well on the dash and I don't want to put a hole in the roof for it.

Thanks again - hope you had a nice trip.

On the assembly line, the steel wheels are easily noticed as they are black vs aluminum in color. They don't put the caps on until close to the final stage, of course by then you can tell what it is by length, design, and decals. I didn't realize the brochure showed them to be aluminum, interesting. I agree with you on the tires.. i'll do the same thing.

Agreed, which is why I followed up with another question asking why the GPS antenna is coiled up under the dash instead of being run to the roof? One would think that if the GPS is included with the vehicle, then the antenna would be mounted with a clear view of the sky. The radio is XM/Sirius capable assuming you buy the module. So in a nutshell if they aren't going to mount the GPS antenna for functionality that is included, they certainly won't do it for an optional piece.

foretm · 06-19-2015, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captnrick3

Not long winded at all. Thanks so much, that was a lot of work. Very informative. I would like to go there myself. When we get new rigs we always think we have the latest of the latest I.E. Girard water heater. I guess not always. However, ours is working OK so far.

Since my schwintek slide motor failure, I am working with Randy at the plant to see if maybe I can add some more rollers to reduce movement/drag etc. on the slide. I'm nervous about that now, it's a sickening feeling to be stuck with a slide out and no way to move.

They did switch to Atwood on the water heater, and DNDNVA on here (Dana) has the new Atwood water heater and says its working pretty well. So i'm hopeful that it will be better than the Girard. The way the Girard works is counter-intuitive to me so i was planning on ripping it out for a Truma Aquago. Expensive, but German engineering and getting some good reviews from the users who have them.

Glad Randy is working with you on it... If you find yourself in the neighborhood, you should visit the plant. Its worth it. Also go to Thor in Wakarusa while you are there. Its a good tour as well, and even though its not what you own or what i'm buying eventually, they're methods are very similar and you get a very good look at the process.

foretm · 06-19-2015, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince and Charlette

Perhaps the worst thing about the Georgetown is sway. Did they provide any insights on that issue or their recommended way to resolve it?

They did not... this plant is specific to the diesel line, Legacy, Berkshire, Charleston. I will ask Bob to give me the name of a rep from the Gas Class A factory and pass that along to you.

Vince and Charlette · 06-19-2015, 09:08 AM

Thanks. After spending $3,000 on "fixes", I am anxious to hear the factory solution.

foretm · 06-19-2015, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince and Charlette

That's fine. By the way, if you see a super/incredible deal on a DP, please let me know. We just bought a brand new 2015 Georgetown 364TS. Three gasser characteristics make me dream for a DP: sway, lack of power and noise level. However, we love the interior design. Since my DW and I made a commitment to live debt-free, the DP was out of our reach. So, we are learning to be satisfied with and thankful for what we have.

Not sure what you have in mind for an "incredible deal", but MHSRV has a brand new 340KP-300HP for $129K

2015 Forest River Legacy 340bh-300 Bunk Model & Ext. Tv, Alvarado TX - 113225085 - RVTrader.com

foretm · 06-19-2015, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince and Charlette

Thanks. After spending $3,000 on "fixes", I am anxious to hear the factory solution.

Vince, see the response from Bob, diesel rep from FR. I'm not sure what all "mods" you have done to rectify this, but I would also check on the Georgetown forum to see what others have done.

"Regarding the Georgetown, I would first direct them to their purchasing dealer, most likely the addition of a rear sway bar will solve his issue. He can contact Georgetown service, but they do not get involved with 3rd party add ons."

Thanks,
Mike

foretm · 06-19-2015, 12:08 PM

Vince and Charlette · 06-19-2015, 07:25 PM

foretm,
Thanks so much for digging into this. I've done all of these. The tire shop I was at today said that some inherent instability comes from the small tires (19.5) on such a large MH (38'). (Later 2015 Georgetown models, exactly like my 2015 come with 22.5 inch tires. Haven't yet found out why the mid-year change.) Members on the Forum acknowledge the different tire sizes. The dealer already put on the TruTrac rear trac bar and a steering stabilizer. He now recommends new shocks all the way around. I also added the 1 and 3/4" heavy duty rear sway bar from Roadmaster. Still, I run across an occasional Forum statement that this is a common problem with the Ford F53 chassis and I just need to "get used to it". I'm considering larger tires, wheels and simulators, but that's another $3,000 to $4,000. A pusher is starting to look real good right about now!

conceptumator · 06-19-2015, 08:33 PM

I've never been in a Georgetown, but from the conversation, it sounds like they're built on the F53 chassis. The Hurricane I traded in back in April was on the same chassis. It was only 31', but I can attest to the sway thing being common. Once I got used to it, all was OK, but it would wear you out after a long day of driving, especially in wind. Even small cars passing would cause fairly major sway that you had to be prepared for. When we got the new Legacy on the highway, I couldn't believe the difference. So much easier to drive and you're not a total wreck after 10 hours behind the wheel! Sorry to say it, but I think what folks are telling you is correct: the sway goes with the territory in a gasser. Good luck. Hope you find something that works.

aeroshots · 06-20-2015, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conceptumator

Thanks for the update on your visit - really appreciated.

Strange you noticed the steel wheels on the Legacy. When I first started looking, aluminum wheels were on my wish list. The salesman first told me the Legacy had aluminum, but when I pointed out they were steel he seemed a little confused. Maybe because the brochure they pass out for the Legacy indicates them to be aluminum? Sure does - I have a copy of it. Alas, I knew they were steel when I bought it, so that's a future enhancement, maybe when I need tires in a few years. For now, the way the set up the stems on the inner duals is really easy to work with so I'm happy.

Reference the aluminum verses steel wheels. I found it interesting when I spoke with FL about getting a quote on aluminum wheels. They looked up my VIN and stated "hum, that shows it comes with aluminum rims". Very strange, but someone somewhere knows the story on this.

conceptumator · 06-20-2015, 10:13 AM

aeroshots: That is strange. Sounds like maybe we should question Forest River as to why they advertise aluminum wheels, show we have aluminum wheels and then install steel wheels. Might be an interesting explanation, for sure.

david29829 · 06-21-2015, 06:38 PM

I attended Camp Freightliner last week. The first order of business is to give a spec sheet for your motorhome based on the chassis Vin number. My 2015 Legacy BH was born with painted steel rims..

david29829 · 06-21-2015, 06:40 PM

P.S. Camp Freightliner in Gaffney SC was awesome..

conceptumator · 06-21-2015, 06:51 PM

I emailed Forest River today and asked for my spec sheet. I also researched the online specs some more and found that in a couple of locations they indicate steel wheels, but in the vast majority of their specs they say aluminum are standard. Not sure what to think of it. Thanks for the input.

captnrick3 · 06-21-2015, 11:01 PM

Interesting. Found that too on spec. sheets prior to purchase and was surprised

foretm · 06-22-2015, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeroshots

Reference the aluminum verses steel wheels. I found it interesting when I spoke with FL about getting a quote on aluminum wheels. They looked up my VIN and stated "hum, that shows it comes with aluminum rims". Very strange, but someone somewhere knows the story on this.

I believe that FL offers the XC-S chassis in both configurations, steel and aluminum wheels. For purposes of cost reductions FR goes with steel on the Legacy. If you go to Freighliner's website, you'll also see that the XC-S chassis come with Front discs standard and Independent Front suspension is available on that chassis as well, but as stated not ordered for cost.

Bear in mind Thor does the same thing on their Palazzo which is intended to be comparable to the Legacy, however in my opinion it is far inferior.

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