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09-16-2018, 09:33 AM
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#1
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,564
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Bathroom sink not draining. Isata 5 DS
Anyone out there have a slow drain in the bathroom sink on an Isata 5? The sink drains into the black tank right at the black tank vent stack. When I took delivery there was no slope on the drain line but the factory service center put some slope on it. While there was some improvement after that it still drains slow and the last cup or so of water bubbles up as if the drain doesn't have enough venting going on? The water lever in the 'P' trap is only about half an inch below the sink strainer. Isn't normal that the water level in the 'P' trap would be lower? Anyone else have this problem, can you see water in your 'P' trap up close to the sink? If you solved this what did you do? I'm tempted to cut into the wall and connect a 'T' so that the Bath sink drains into the gray tank. Ideas?
__________________
Old Navy Chief
2019 Isata 5 36' DS 4x4
2015 Jeep Rubicon Toad
Days camped 2021 = 25
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09-18-2018, 03:34 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: 8000' in CO
Posts: 849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caseymyers
Anyone out there have a slow drain in the bathroom sink on an Isata 5? The sink drains into the black tank right at the black tank vent stack. When I took delivery there was no slope on the drain line but the factory service center put some slope on it. While there was some improvement after that it still drains slow and the last cup or so of water bubbles up as if the drain doesn't have enough venting going on? The water lever in the 'P' trap is only about half an inch below the sink strainer. Isn't normal that the water level in the 'P' trap would be lower? Anyone else have this problem, can you see water in your 'P' trap up close to the sink? If you solved this what did you do? I'm tempted to cut into the wall and connect a 'T' so that the Bath sink drains into the gray tank. Ideas?
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You and I must have coaches that were built on the same day because we seem to experience the same exact issues!
So yes, our lav sink drains very slowly AND we get the bubbling/gurgling as the last little bit drains out of the sink. The “funny” part about this is that you and I have different floor plans, so our sinks, drains and vent stacks are in completely different places! As of now, I have done very little investigative work, but it’s interesting to hear that you had the factory add extra slope for the drain under the counter. I will have to look into that for sure.
Here's a THEORY: the rain cap that is glued to the top of the vent stack COULD be considered a hindrance all on its own. Think of it like a pipe “cap” that has a bunch of tiny holes in it. If I were to guess, I’d say that from a surface area perspective, it’s 30-40-ish% blocked. I’ll stress, that’s a GUESS, but what I can say for certain is that the vent stack rain cap is _NOT_ flowing enough air to render the 1.5” vent stack as effective as a 1.5” vent stack should be. If we say that my estimate is anywhere near correct and 30% is the number, that would reduce the 1.5” pipe to 1.05”. If it’s 40%, then we would be talking about effectively reducing the pipe to 0.90” instead of 1.5”. Probably not a huge issue for draining the sink, but it’s certainly not ideal for draining the 3.0” drainpipe/valve when you go to dump your blank tank.
The rain cap for the vent stack on our (both of them) look exactly like this one:
__________________
2019 Dynamax Isata 5 35DB
Audi "Nardo Grey"
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09-18-2018, 03:43 PM
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#3
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Commercial Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bristol, IN
Posts: 18,904
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The rain cap thingy, is actually a 360 Siphon developed specifically for this purpose by a retired engineer. Since its creation, the company was bought by Lippert, but to my knowledge, nothing has changed.
https://www.lci1.com/360-siphon
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09-18-2018, 04:01 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: 8000' in CO
Posts: 849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bclemens
The rain cap thingy, is actually a 360 Siphon developed specifically for this purpose by a retired engineer. Since its creation, the company was bought by Lippert, but to my knowledge, nothing has changed.
https://www.lci1.com/360-siphon
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Huh. That is interesting and thanks for posting.
I’m not a aero or fluid dynamists…..dynamissyst…..arghh, I’m not even sure tis that’s an actual word, but I CAN say that when I go to drain the black tank (no matter how full it is), if I just rip open the drain valve, it will easily air lock inside a few seconds. Once or twice now, I’ve had it air lock so badly that it simply stopped draining. Now I’ve just gotten into the habit of only pulling the valve open 50-60% and just accepting that it’s going to take a little longer.
If I look at any actual sticks-and-bricks building code, it will usually say that the vent stack MUST be half the diameter of the drain pipe that it’s venting. So, the black tank drain is 3” and that would suggest that the vent stack should be 1.5”, which it is. However, from a surface area perspective, the cap is certainly cutting into that. Since it sounds like the rain cap/odor siphon thingy was really designed to be effective at drawing odor out when there is no flow in the drain (according to the YouTube video above), I really view it as a hindrance from an airflow “I need to drain the waste pipe” venting perspective.
Again, I’ll stress that this is coming from someone who can barely spell dynamisyst…..dynamisois….dynometer….oh, I give up!
__________________
2019 Dynamax Isata 5 35DB
Audi "Nardo Grey"
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09-18-2018, 04:03 PM
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#5
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: 8000' in CO
Posts: 849
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.....but I also don't think that is the problem with the sink draining. The sink drain is 1.5", so the vent should only "need" 0.75" to be fully effective.
__________________
2019 Dynamax Isata 5 35DB
Audi "Nardo Grey"
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09-18-2018, 05:18 PM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,564
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Thanks, I'll try draining the sink w/o the cap installed, see if that makes a difference?
__________________
Old Navy Chief
2019 Isata 5 36' DS 4x4
2015 Jeep Rubicon Toad
Days camped 2021 = 25
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09-18-2018, 05:31 PM
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#7
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: 8000' in CO
Posts: 849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caseymyers
Thanks, I'll try draining the sink w/o the cap installed, see if that makes a difference?
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I was thinking the same thing when I climbed up there to check it.....actually, I was thinking that I'd climb up there, pull the cap and shine a flashlight down the vent to inspect for blockage. That's when I discovered the cap thingy. Alas, it's glued on and with not a lot of vent stack sticking up to potentially buy another cap and then glue it on.....and based on the video Brian posted above it LOOKS like the cap maybe be flanged and then sealed to the roof, but I'd have to climb back up there and check again.
__________________
2019 Dynamax Isata 5 35DB
Audi "Nardo Grey"
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09-18-2018, 08:20 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLT4SPD
You and I must have coaches that were built on the same day because we seem to experience the same exact issues!
So yes, our lav sink drains very slowly AND we get the bubbling/gurgling as the last little bit drains out of the sink. The “funny” part about this is that you and I have different floor plans, so our sinks, drains and vent stacks are in completely different places! As of now, I have done very little investigative work, but it’s interesting to hear that you had the factory add extra slope for the drain under the counter. I will have to look into that for sure.
Here's a THEORY: the rain cap that is glued to the top of the vent stack COULD be considered a hindrance all on its own. Think of it like a pipe “cap” that has a bunch of tiny holes in it. If I were to guess, I’d say that from a surface area perspective, it’s 30-40-ish% blocked. I’ll stress, that’s a GUESS, but what I can say for certain is that the vent stack rain cap is _NOT_ flowing enough air to render the 1.5” vent stack as effective as a 1.5” vent stack should be. If we say that my estimate is anywhere near correct and 30% is the number, that would reduce the 1.5” pipe to 1.05”. If it’s 40%, then we would be talking about effectively reducing the pipe to 0.90” instead of 1.5”. Probably not a huge issue for draining the sink, but it’s certainly not ideal for draining the 3.0” drainpipe/valve when you go to dump your blank tank.
The rain cap for the vent stack on our (both of them) look exactly like this one:
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Make that 3 built on the same day...
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09-19-2018, 04:56 AM
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#9
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vrunner
Make that 3 built on the same day...
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Make that 4. Mine does the same thing.
__________________
2018 Isata 5 30FW
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09-19-2018, 06:12 AM
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#10
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Marysville, Ohio
Posts: 1,765
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Mine as well, and it’s an Isata 3rw.
__________________
2008 Dynaquest 340xl
Bill and Carol
Retired mechanic
US Army Veteran 🇺🇸
Previous coach 2017 Isata 3RW
Also,3 Diesel pushers, 1Bvan, 2 class Cs
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09-19-2018, 08:17 AM
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#11
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Commercial Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bristol, IN
Posts: 18,904
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I had no issues in the 30FW I demo'd. Is this just happening from normal "water on" operation....or are you filling the sink? then pulling the stopper.
One thing to note...unlike a normal residential sink, this does not have an overflow. I have to assume the overflow on a residential allows air right at the drain. Also an RV drain is only 1.25", not 1.5.
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09-19-2018, 09:28 AM
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#12
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bclemens
I had no issues in the 30FW I demo'd. Is this just happening from normal "water on" operation....or are you filling the sink? then pulling the stopper.
One thing to note...unlike a normal residential sink, this does not have an overflow. I have to assume the overflow on a residential allows air right at the drain. Also an RV drain is only 1.25", not 1.5.
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Mine is a 36 DS. Initially the horizontal drain pipe was installed with 'up' slope to the vent pipe. (Kitchen drain the same way but there was enough slack in the fittings that I could adjust the kitchen drain for slope, it now works fine). Trying to fix the bathroom drain Greg cut a hole in the wall and rebuilt my Lav drain to create some down slope. Yet the result is the same; water level in the 'P' trap is visible, maybe half inch below the bottom of the sink bowl, what I would consider pretty high water level for a P trap. When you run water to wash hands, the drain works, but runs slow as if clogged, as it finally empties the last bit of water bubbles up with air coming back up through the 'P' trap. All this as if the vent is not working. I can probably live with it but it's driving my co-pilot nuts. Ideas? P.S. Just had a thought while drafting this, isn't that the shallow end of the tank where the vent is located? What if that vent pipe is sitting in the tank water? You know the depressed tank syndrome you've had on some other units? That might explain the air bubbling back through the system? Ideas?
__________________
Old Navy Chief
2019 Isata 5 36' DS 4x4
2015 Jeep Rubicon Toad
Days camped 2021 = 25
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09-19-2018, 09:29 AM
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#13
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,564
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Normal water on. Not filling the sink.
__________________
Old Navy Chief
2019 Isata 5 36' DS 4x4
2015 Jeep Rubicon Toad
Days camped 2021 = 25
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09-19-2018, 09:39 AM
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#14
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caseymyers
Normal water on. Not filling the sink.
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Same.
__________________
2018 Isata 5 30FW
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09-19-2018, 10:12 AM
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#15
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Commercial Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Bristol, IN
Posts: 18,904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caseymyers
Mine is a 36 DS. Initially the horizontal drain pipe was installed with 'up' slope to the vent pipe. (Kitchen drain the same way but there was enough slack in the fittings that I could adjust the kitchen drain for slope, it now works fine). Trying to fix the bathroom drain Greg cut a hole in the wall and rebuilt my Lav drain to create some down slope. Yet the result is the same; water level in the 'P' trap is visible, maybe half inch below the bottom of the sink bowl, what I would consider pretty high water level for a P trap. When you run water to wash hands, the drain works, but runs slow as if clogged, as it finally empties the last bit of water bubbles up with air coming back up through the 'P' trap. All this as if the vent is not working. I can probably live with it but it's driving my co-pilot nuts. Ideas? P.S. Just had a thought while drafting this, isn't that the shallow end of the tank where the vent is located? What if that vent pipe is sitting in the tank water? You know the depressed tank syndrome you've had on some other units? That might explain the air bubbling back through the system? Ideas?
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1. so you haven't tried that Hepa valve yet?
2. My engineer also suggested adding an air admittance valve like we do for island sinks. Then its not getting its venting from the vent stack...but right there locally.
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09-19-2018, 10:12 AM
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#16
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: 8000' in CO
Posts: 849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bclemens
I had no issues in the 30FW I demo'd. Is this just happening from normal "water on" operation....or are you filling the sink? then pulling the stopper.
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Agreed with others that have responded; just normal use like washing hands brushing teeth, etc. I've completely removed the stopper from anybody's sight as that A) helped a little bit with the draining and B) will keep anyone from stopping the sink because.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by bclemens
One thing to note...unlike a normal residential sink, this does not have an overflow.
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....and I have 3 kids, so something bad WAS going to happen if I didn't make that thing disappear!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bclemens
Also an RV drain is only 1.25", not 1.5.
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Good to know.
__________________
2019 Dynamax Isata 5 35DB
Audi "Nardo Grey"
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09-19-2018, 10:28 AM
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#17
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: 8000' in CO
Posts: 849
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[QUOTE=caseymyers;1931493]Mine is a 36 DS. Initially the horizontal drain pipe was installed with 'up' slope to the vent pipe. (Kitchen drain the same way but there was enough slack in the fittings that I could adjust the kitchen drain for slope, it now works fine). Trying to fix the bathroom drain Greg cut a hole in the wall and rebuilt my Lav drain to create some down slope. Yet the result is the same;
Quote:
Originally Posted by caseymyers
water level in the 'P' trap is visible, maybe half inch below the bottom of the sink bowl, what I would consider pretty high water level for a P trap.
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If I were to throw a shot in the dark guess at this, it would be; the P-Trap is simply moved up towards the sink more for space restrictions in the cabinet below. In a sticks-and-bricks, the P-Trap sits lower to accommodate the stopper and probably due to the fact that there is room to mount it lower. So, with the P-Trap moved towards the sink bowl, you are able to see the water in it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caseymyers
When you run water to wash hands, the drain works, but runs slow as if clogged, as it finally empties the last bit of water bubbles up with air coming back up through the 'P' trap. All this as if the vent is not working. I can probably live with it but it's driving my co-pilot nuts. Ideas?
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This describes the draining of our sink exactly. The only exception is that it’s driving _me_ nuts, not my co-pilot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caseymyers
P.S. Just had a thought while drafting this, isn't that the shallow end of the tank where the vent is located? What if that vent pipe is sitting in the tank water? You know the depressed tank syndrome you've had on some other units? That might explain the air bubbling back through the system? Ideas?
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Since I’ve had the bottom half of the vent pipe out, I’ll comment on what I know; the vent pipe doesn’t actually protrude down into the black tank. On ours, the tank grommet that acts as the entry point and seal for the vent stack has a lip at the bottom of it that stops the PVC pipe from entering the tank. That lip is about as wide as the PVC pipe is thick, so it’s designed to stop the pipe but not block it. You would have to ram it in pretty hard to actually penetrate the pipe down into the tank. Even if you did, the black tank would have to be VERY full to actually cover/block the vent pipe.
__________________
2019 Dynamax Isata 5 35DB
Audi "Nardo Grey"
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09-19-2018, 10:35 AM
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#18
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bclemens
1. so you haven't tried that Hepa valve yet?
2. My engineer also suggested adding an air admittance valve like we do for island sinks. Then its not getting its venting from the vent stack...but right there locally.
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Greg talked me out of the Hepa valve when he and I were discussing how to fix this thing, he didn't think it would help much, so I've hesitated to get under there and cut pipe not knowing if the Hepa would fix the issue but I may still go that route.
But I like option #2 and was actually thinking of doing that. Is it a device where I could cut the horizontal pipe and glue it in there under the sink? Can you send me part numbers or a photo of what I'd be looking for? I'm no plumber.
__________________
Old Navy Chief
2019 Isata 5 36' DS 4x4
2015 Jeep Rubicon Toad
Days camped 2021 = 25
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09-19-2018, 10:36 AM
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#19
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: 8000' in CO
Posts: 849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bclemens
1. so you haven't tried that Hepa valve yet?
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I just had to google this and I’m going to assume that you are speaking about the HEPvO valve and some spell check/auto-correct changed your text to Hepa.Like this:
Introducing HepvO - the Sanitary Waste Valve
If this is the device you are speaking about, I guess I would ask the question of you; Has Dynamax/Forest River tried this product?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bclemens
2. My engineer also suggested adding an air admittance valve like we do for island sinks. Then its not getting its venting from the vent stack...but right there locally.
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In reality, shouldn’t a 1.5” vent stack be absolute overkill for a 1.25” sink drain? The bigger question in my mind is why isn't the sink draining properly?
__________________
2019 Dynamax Isata 5 35DB
Audi "Nardo Grey"
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09-19-2018, 11:21 AM
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#20
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,564
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Dynamax uses the Hepa valve under the showers, water flows one way, no P trap needed.
__________________
Old Navy Chief
2019 Isata 5 36' DS 4x4
2015 Jeep Rubicon Toad
Days camped 2021 = 25
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