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Old 07-20-2018, 11:50 AM   #1
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Force HD Swivel Seats

In the category of "well why doesn't Dynamax do XXXX it would be so simple, every one else is doing it"...I wanted to explain why its not always as simple as it may seem.

In an effort to get that 2nd arm rest that we have lately been hammered for (or maybe its just one person, over and over and over and seems like 10 million) we have started using the stock Freightliner seats with dual arm rests for 2019 and recovering them. Luckily, I said we would start with the Force and then if that went well, move on to the DX3 and XL. Because what we have found is that the bolt pattern for the stock seat is not the same as the top of the swivel ped.

Unbeknownst to us (shame on me for not checking, but it seems illogical), the swivel seat ped, designed for us, uses the stock bolt pattern on the bottom. BUT, then uses a wider bolt pattern on the top to accommodate the aftermarket seat. So, unfortunately we have had to discontinue the swivel seat option on the Force until we develop a solution.

Options we are working on:
1. We have the swivel seat mech supplier, add a ped with the stock bolt pattern. This takes time and must be tested.

2. See again if we can use the stock Freightliner swivel ped they use on the day cabs. We have been down this path before with no results, because they only offer that on the Cascadia. But we're exploring anyway. Quickest and easiest.

3. We install a plate that would adapt the stock seat to the swivel ped. adds yet more height to the seat stack, more complexity and we would still have to pull test it.

Ultimately I would love to have a stock Freightliner seat on a stock swivel mount, that would be, in my opinion, the best solution.

Anyway, my apologies, but as soon as we have a solution we will make them available for purchase.
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Old 07-20-2018, 11:58 AM   #2
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I am caught up in this Brian and appreciate you posting and letting us know. Can you guarantee us that there will be a solution and is there any way you could give us a relative time frame that we would have to wait? I know testing will be involved for function and maybe even safety as well. The swivel seats for me and Im sure others were a major deciding factor in my purchase and would really need to know these 2 things.
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Old 07-20-2018, 12:17 PM   #3
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No, I can't guaranty that there will be a solution, but I don't see any reason why we wouldn't be able to have one. Might be splitting hairs, but its like guarantying delivery dates. I can with my best intentions get you close...but there are variables outside of my control.

As for time frame...that really depends on the solution. I hope to have more info back from our suppliers by next week so I can get a better estimate. They designed and built this for us before...so I don't see why they can't again. But if the volume is not what they want to see, they could tell me they are not interested.
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Old 07-20-2018, 12:50 PM   #4
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No, I can't guaranty that there will be a solution, but I don't see any reason why we wouldn't be able to have one. Might be splitting hairs, but its like guarantying delivery dates. I can with my best intentions get you close...but there are variables outside of my control.

As for time frame...that really depends on the solution. I hope to have more info back from our suppliers by next week so I can get a better estimate. They designed and built this for us before...so I don't see why they can't again. But if the volume is not what they want to see, they could tell me they are not interested.
Brian, I think you said before that you just pull the stock seats out and scrap them? Do these seats have dual arm rests? If so, I might be interested in getting 2 of them to work on my own solution. Mostly because the stack height with the swivels in place is still just a bit too tall for me due to my height. I have to let the pressure out of the air system to get it down as low as possible and then I don't get much suspension out of the seat, it just bottoms out on each bump. If I air up enough to get some suspension, I can oly see out of the bottom 2/3 of the windshield.

Worse case I would remove the swivel mechanism as that adds 4" to 5" to the stack height. I think the base can be shortened enough to accommodate the swivel but still lower the overall stack height. Oh, and now that were finally putting some miles on the rig, DW is beginning to complain that her feet don't reach the floor and it is uncomfortable on long drives.
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Old 07-20-2018, 12:55 PM   #5
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I know after talking to the rep that Dynamax is wanting to ship the motorhomes as they sit now, without the swivel, and us take possession of them as they are and hope there is a solution in the future. He said Dynamax did not want to sit on the rigs until they knew more.

Im not sure I can agree to that. The swivel seats was a major-major part in our decision in this motorhome process. I know that we would have either went with a Class A or the DX3 and would not have bought the Force HD. I know this is no ones fault and stuff happens but I think how it is handled from here forward is really important.

Also at no ones fault, our delivery date is already 2 months behind original date at order which has been a big thing also. Im hoping we can come up with a suitable solution that can be of benefit to both of us. I am willing to try and work this out but not sure we are heading down the right road as of now.
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Old 07-20-2018, 01:23 PM   #6
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Brian, I think you said before that you just pull the stock seats out and scrap them? Do these seats have dual arm rests? If so, I might be interested in getting 2 of them to work on my own solution. Mostly because the stack height with the swivels in place is still just a bit too tall for me due to my height. I have to let the pressure out of the air system to get it down as low as possible and then I don't get much suspension out of the seat, it just bottoms out on each bump. If I air up enough to get some suspension, I can oly see out of the bottom 2/3 of the windshield.

Worse case I would remove the swivel mechanism as that adds 4" to 5" to the stack height. I think the base can be shortened enough to accommodate the swivel but still lower the overall stack height. Oh, and now that were finally putting some miles on the rig, DW is beginning to complain that her feet don't reach the floor and it is uncomfortable on long drives.
We did, but those came with no arm rests and we sold them to Dicks Auto Parts in Middlebury for salvage. Now we but them in with the arm rests and use them on the Force. You can buy the arm rests through Freightliner though if you wanted to try a stock seat.
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Old 07-20-2018, 01:27 PM   #7
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I know after talking to the rep that Dynamax is wanting to ship the motorhomes as they sit now, without the swivel, and us take possession of them as they are and hope there is a solution in the future. He said Dynamax did not want to sit on the rigs until they knew more.

Im not sure I can agree to that. The swivel seats was a major-major part in our decision in this motorhome process. I know that we would have either went with a Class A or the DX3 and would not have bought the Force HD. I know this is no ones fault and stuff happens but I think how it is handled from here forward is really important.

Also at no ones fault, our delivery date is already 2 months behind original date at order which has been a big thing also. Im hoping we can come up with a suitable solution that can be of benefit to both of us. I am willing to try and work this out but not sure we are heading down the right road as of now.
That's really between you and your dealer for now. We won't sit on them, we have already written change orders to delete the swivel seat option so that customer are not paying for what they won't be getting. Then once we have a solution, we will make that available. So they're going to get it...whether it stays as retail sold or becomes stock is up to you and them. I have no doubt we will find a solution. We have already reached out to another company and they say they are already working on a stock swivel...4-6 weeks to proto. And I think that is the worse case scenario.
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Old 07-20-2018, 01:45 PM   #8
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Brian, I would assume that if you are still getting National seats, then their swivel kit would fit their seats. Their on-line information for the swivel kit doesn't exclude a type of seat, but you may need to check directly with National.




It may be something you buy the truck with the seat you want from Freightliner and then the swivel kit from National.


This assumes that you are still getting a National seat. That's what you were getting last spring when I asked who the seat & ride mech was from.
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Old 07-20-2018, 01:52 PM   #9
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That's really between you and your dealer for now. We won't sit on them, we have already written change orders to delete the swivel seat option so that customer are not paying for what they won't be getting. Then once we have a solution, we will make that available. So they're going to get it...whether it stays as retail sold or becomes stock is up to you and them. I have no doubt we will find a solution. We have already reached out to another company and they say they are already working on a stock swivel...4-6 weeks to proto. And I think that is the worse case scenario.
Ok so I am not confused. Dynamax's stance on this is at the last minute, when you have already been waiting 6 months and we are 2 months behind the scheduled delivery date, we are not able to deliver you one of the things that you most wanted out of your motorhome. So we will not charge you for this and send it to you anyway. You can either take it or leave it. Really? Without the swivel seats, I would not have given half of what I agreed to pay for this one. It was not an option. Does a customer thats been waiting this long not mean any more than that? I think this may have just caused the same dealer to lose 2 sales... Not just one.. But Im guessing thats ok too?

Come on Brian... I know you and Dynamax is better then this. My wife has 3 trips already booked for this fall and we have run into this snag but Im not sure I can take the coach under these terms. It is almost like losing an entire room without the swivel seats. Its too big a bet to not be sure the swivels can be worked out. I know that part is not your fault but its certainly not our fault but we are the ones who are gonna have to suffer.

Either way I will take it up with the dealer as you said and hopefully me and my friend both will be able to get our deposits back but if not thats ok too. I really hate this has turned this way Brian. I know the swivel thing is nobody fault but I am disappointed in how its turned since then.
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Old 07-20-2018, 01:58 PM   #10
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Brian, I would assume that if you are still getting National seats, then their swivel kit would fit their seats. Their on-line information for the swivel kit doesn't exclude a type of seat, but you may need to check directly with National.




It may be something you buy the truck with the seat you want from Freightliner and then the swivel kit from National.


This assumes that you are still getting a National seat. That's what you were getting last spring when I asked who the seat & ride mech was from.
I'm not sure who national is but for 2018, we got seats from Lexington (purchased by Lippert last year) the swivel peds from Atwood (purchased by Lippert the year before) and the chassis from Freightliner.

For 2019. We get the seat from Freightliner, the swivel bed (was from Atwood) and the chassis from Freightliner.
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Old 07-20-2018, 02:15 PM   #11
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Ok so I am not confused. Dynamax's stance on this is at the last minute, when you have already been waiting 6 months and we are 2 months behind the scheduled delivery date, we are not able to deliver you one of the things that you most wanted out of your motorhome. So we will not charge you for this and send it to you anyway. You can either take it or leave it. Really? Without the swivel seats, I would not have given half of what I agreed to pay for this one. It was not an option. Does a customer thats been waiting this long not mean any more than that? I think this may have just caused the same dealer to lose 2 sales... Not just one.. But Im guessing thats ok too?

Come on Brian... I know you and Dynamax is better then this. My wife has 3 trips already booked for this fall and we have run into this snag but Im not sure I can take the coach under these terms. It is almost like losing an entire room without the swivel seats. Its too big a bet to not be sure the swivels can be worked out. I know that part is not your fault but its certainly not our fault but we are the ones who are gonna have to suffer.

Either way I will take it up with the dealer as you said and hopefully me and my friend both will be able to get our deposits back but if not thats ok too. I really hate this has turned this way Brian. I know the swivel thing is nobody fault but I am disappointed in how its turned since then.
Boy, that escalated quickly. Just when I thought I was winning over friends.

1. I have no idea what date the dealer gave for delivery...so that one can't be on Dynamax.

2. We had no way to know that not having swivel seats diminished the value of the vehicle by half. Because there are several people on here that have considered taking off the swivels to get a lower seat height, or taking off the swivels to get a stock seat with dual arm rests.

3. For 2019, the swivel seats became an option. If that was not relayed to you, my apologies but the dealer should have as they are marked on the 2019 price sheet that way.

I don't really consider this a "take it or leave it" scenario.

So...let's say it takes 3 months to get the swivel seats figured out. Are you expecting me to hold every single Force in my yard, then when they come in, ship them finally?

As I said, I see no reason that we can't get this figured out. But, as they say"don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes", I am not going to blindly guaranty anything before I have more data. I know that it can be resolved...its just a matter of logistics at this point.

Best case scenario, you take the coach, in 3 months we inform the dealer that the swivel seats are ready and you decide "i really like how the seat height is now and we didn't miss them as much as we though we would". thanks, but I'll take the savings. end of story.

Worst case, you take the coach, we never figure out the seats. You can still sit in them...it's just more of a private conversation. Call it the "reading room".

Worser case...you take the coach. We figure out the swivels, you buy them, they get installed, you hate the seat height change and then continually tell me what a disappointment they are and that you wasted your money.
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Old 07-20-2018, 02:59 PM   #12
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Boy, that escalated quickly. Just when I thought I was winning over friends.

1. I have no idea what date the dealer gave for delivery...so that one can't be on Dynamax.

2. We had no way to know that not having swivel seats diminished the value of the vehicle by half. Because there are several people on here that have considered taking off the swivels to get a lower seat height, or taking off the swivels to get a stock seat with dual arm rests.

3. For 2019, the swivel seats became an option. If that was not relayed to you, my apologies but the dealer should have as they are marked on the 2019 price sheet that way.

I don't really consider this a "take it or leave it" scenario.

So...let's say it takes 3 months to get the swivel seats figured out. Are you expecting me to hold every single Force in my yard, then when they come in, ship them finally?

As I said, I see no reason that we can't get this figured out. But, as they say"don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes", I am not going to blindly guaranty anything before I have more data. I know that it can be resolved...its just a matter of logistics at this point.

Best case scenario, you take the coach, in 3 months we inform the dealer that the swivel seats are ready and you decide "i really like how the seat height is now and we didn't miss them as much as we though we would". thanks, but I'll take the savings. end of story.

Worst case, you take the coach, we never figure out the seats. You can still sit in them...it's just more of a private conversation. Call it the "reading room".

Worser case...you take the coach. We figure out the swivels, you buy them, they get installed, you hate the seat height change and then continually tell me what a disappointment they are and that you wasted your money.
1) The salesman called Doug, the Eastern rep from Dynamax, and he gave us the estimated delivery date. End of May, first week of June... We agreed and put down the deposit.

2) For certain family situations such as ours, it diminishes the value completely. We need those seats for our family. Thats why we ordered the cabover for extra sleeping. If it was only me and my wife, I would have ordered the DX3 TS and been done. So yes its a game changer for sure.

3) The swivel seats were relayed as an option. Meaning if you want them we can get them and if you dont want them we can take that off the price. So we ordered them.

To start with on the rest, I had no clue we were thinking 3 months but we can use that as a baseline. Im not saying I would expect you to hold them 3 months but it seems you could work with us some how within a time frame to see if it can be worked out at all. Not having the seats is not an option for us at all but it may be the end result for the Force HD's because we dont know if you can fix it or not. Im not willing to bet the price of one on it? The friend of mine who also is caught up in this has kids. He cant do without the swivels either. The swivels are not a comfort thing as it is a necessity for seating. It does not matter which is more comfortable, money saved or not.

Im not upset that the swivel issue has come up. I dont hold no one responsible for that. Its an accident. No problem but dont take my coach and send it on to the dealer and say we either buy it or it becomes stock for them. Its like me building your house and you are ready to take delivery but something happened and I had to remove 10' from your living room. I respond with well you can take it and hope I can fix it later or I am going to sell it.

Then you have to go and tell your wife about it and tell her we either take it or leave it. Man thats pretty tough right there. You have all the power here and thats on you. I dont think I am wrong here.

In the mean time we both have talked to our dealer and they have offered us both back a full refund and not sure what they will do with the motorhomes. In the mean time we have wasted 6 months of our life on this and an entire summer. Its just a sad thing...
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Old 07-20-2018, 03:04 PM   #13
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Just an FYI, it’s just the swivels that aren’t doable. The seats would still be there. Kids can still sit there. In fact in my 30FW video, my son is sitting in the passenger seat reading a book. That became his fort.
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Old 07-20-2018, 03:45 PM   #14
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I understand that but we needed them for adult seating. We had 2 families going to Disney world in October. The wife is dealing with all the reservations as we speak trying to transfer them to a hotel.
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Old 07-20-2018, 05:47 PM   #15
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Brian when you say this escalated in a hurry, the way we configured our motorhome was based on number of people and seating. We bought the TS with theater seats and removed one couch for the upgraded fireplace and TV. That only gives us 2 seats in that area. That’s why the swivel seats are a big deal.

We looked for other options on RV Trader and none close enough to us. The wife found a Tiffin Allegro RED so if we can get it bought problem solved. This decision not based on that the swivel problem happened because I hold no ill will for that. Accidents happen and stuff comes up. It’s the way you have treated it since it has been explained by the dealer, the rep and your stance. But the dealer we have is fantastic. They are willing to help us with the Tiffin.
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Old 07-20-2018, 07:13 PM   #16
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Well, from everything you have said, this is really what you wanted all along. So now you get the coach you really wanted, without having to tell your wife no. It’s the “out” you needed. I’m a “silver lining” kind of guy.

When I was on the sales side, working a show for a dealer, I would demo a Winnebago if that’s what the customer landed on. I would pitch my product, but in the end, if they really wanted something different, I would answer their questions on a competitor product, because I’d rather they buy what they want, than forever regret me pushing them into mine. And while at a show, I’m really there to support the dealer in any way I can. Best of luck.

PS. When I said “that escalated quickly” it was sort of a joke. I was quoting a movie line, thus the lol at the end. I was just trying to keep it light.

Enjoy the Tiffin. Those guys seem to build a good product and with the involvement form the owner I’m guessing they have a pretty good forum as well.
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Old 07-20-2018, 08:51 PM   #17
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So they're going to get it...whether it stays as retail sold or becomes stock is up to you and them. .
No sir Brian you are not putting this off on me and when you are talking to me you will leave my wife out of the conversation. I will not speak to you again about that........We wanted the Dynamax. We have been waiting on the Dynamax. We have had opportunities to buy something different but I like the forum and the people here and like the motorhome. I knew about the swivel seat problem yesterday but was really not too concerned about it until today when I found out what I was told was not exactly true. And then after talking to the rep, and talking to you is when I got disappointed. Your attitude as the GM with the quote above is in my opinion unprofessional to a customer who has waited this long. I understand there is a problem and Dynamax needs time to work through it. No problem. But when I am told we are shipping and it either will be yours or the dealer can stock it and sell it is to me not right. Its kind of the chicken way out also instead of manning up, addressing and fixing the problem.

All I wanted was to see if you could work with me and lets take some time to see what answers we could get in the next week or so but you just shoved it on me and the dealer when Dynamax is the one that dropped the ball. Not me... Not the dealer... You, Dynamax and whoever designed this swivel.. Now you can twist the words all you want like you usually do and make it sound like its the customers fault but this time my friend, its on you.......

I have tried to get along with you on this forum and make this process as smooth as I can but this has wore me out. I ordered, as it was an offered option by Dynamax, swivel seats which gave us 2 more seats in the living area. We also have the theater seats which is 2 more. Thats all we have in that area... Your attitude is we are sending it as is and if we can fix it later we will offer to SALE you the parts to fix it. If we cant, oh well try and use it as we built it. If not the dealer can sell it to someone else. The least Dynamax could have done was say hey, our bad, sorry for all the trouble and if we can fix this we would gladly send you the parts on us for all the trouble...

I would love to be a fly on the wall and see how you would react if this had happened to you and your family. Damn I would love to build you a house..... Hell I would settle for this little out building your thinking about.

You are wrong on this and I hate that it has happened but I will not stand by and let you try to put this off on me. 1 week before delivery and this has to happen. And worse, your attitude and answer to a solution... The worst part about it is about right before dinner the salesman called and said he knew how bad we wanted the rig and to please take the weekend and see if we could accept the motorhome as is. The wife and I both actually agreed because of the plans we have made and the wait we have been through. But then I come home and read this smart ass post you have made and you are the GM..... The GM... Wow..

You do so much good work and things for the people on this forum but I swear at times you do twice as much harm at the same time... I want the coach still as it is but the thought of giving in to you on this with your attitude is something Im not sure I could ever swallow.

To the good folks on the forum I am sorry all of you had to read this but I did PM the good GM and he wanted this to be on the forum so here it is.
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Old 07-20-2018, 09:52 PM   #18
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I have not made any attempt to twist words. Nor could I, as everything you and I write is here in black and white. If we go back a little further this was written “Its not something I wanted but the DW does so a happy wife is a happy home“.

While my words may have rubbed you the wrong way, all I was doing was stating the facts . I am not going to lie to make anyone feel better or bend the truth. The truth is, when that coach is done, we will ship it. That is not me shoving it on to you or the dealer. If that dealer doesn’t want it, it can go to another dealer. I will not force them to take a coach or you for that matter that was not ordered the way you spec’d it.

And I took the option price off. So yes, while I would sell you the parts once we got the swivel seats figured out, I would make sure no one paid more than the original option price even though it will cost me more money to install them after the fact. I felt like that was being pretty fair. You get the coach quicker, don’t pay for something you didn’t get and only end up paying what you would have in the first place. Maybe someone else can tell me if that seems like I am taking advantage of the situation.

You did reach out to me originally in a private message, but I knew this affected more than just you so I wanted the information about the swivel seat change to be public knowledge. So no surprises. That way you can make an educated decision about what was best for you and your family. The “chicken” thing to do, would be to lie and say we have a parts shortages but go ahead and take your coach, once we get it resolved we’ll send the parts. Then, when the dealer has your money say “sorry, there was a product change and we can’t do those swivels any more”. Sorry, here’s a couple hundred for your inconvenience, but now you’re stuck with a coach you didn’t want.

I’m sorry you feel the way you do, but I was just being honest. The only way I know how.
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Old 07-20-2018, 10:05 PM   #19
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Join Date: Jan 2018
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How far back did you have to look to find that post I made. I would guess a long long long way because I have made several since then saying I did not want the coach but was actually getting really excited about it as the delivery date got closer.

Your the GM and you have the final say in the matter so its whatever at this point. I would just urge others to be careful when ordering because 1 week away and its take it as it is or do without. I know my sale is irrelevant and unimportant to your bottom line because I am nothing but 1 customer and you have people lined up to buy.

Again I apologize to all the good people who have had to read this. Y'all are a lot of great people on here and we were hoping to be a part of it.
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The Renegade is offline   Reply
Old 07-21-2018, 07:21 AM   #20
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Thanks for all the PM’s guys. Y’all are great.
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