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Old 07-05-2016, 08:50 AM   #61
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Given this response, I have to ask - how much more would it cost (say on an MBS chassis) to (1) clean up after yourself, (2) install fasteners into something that will hold them and drill holes with care vs. knocking out a hole with a hammer or other improper tool, (3) use quality components and (4) install pre-built wiring harnesses vs. the haphazard wire installation currently used?

Would doing this put the MH out of contention price-wise or cut into your margins beyond an acceptable level? Or is the reason things are done this way is because of the production targets that have to met, customer be damned?.
1. zero. Our guys know they have to vacuum in all locations. Now, I think they get the obvious ones, kitchen base, under drawers, etc. I have seen some crazy things in hidden cavities. Shower base is a smaller opening and could have been missed. I guess I would have to see the extent do the "left behinds" to tell you for sure. I can only speak for my division however. They're not perfect, but I present pictures of all things like that to the line so they know what the consumer expects. Its a learning process for them as well.

2. Not much, just the cost of the backer that needs to be added. We add backer to anything we know is getting installed. Is there a possibility someone does not hit backer and just lets it slide...sure, and that's not easy to catch. Depending on the employee to "self correct" on that one.

3. Again, I can't speak for other divisions, but where we find components lacking, we upgrade them. Sometimes you don't know until you see a failure rate. But we use real metal fixtures, thick glass vessel bowl, upgraded light fixtures, more expensive Progressive Dynamics converter, higher grade exhaust fans, better electronics, AGM maintenance-free batteries are double the cost of flooded, but we use those. So I guess, its a general question, but there is a decent cost increase to use more expensive items and we use those items in our line. We use 1/2" Corian, some use 1/4"...all of these things add up and most people don't always notice them.

4. My division uses wiring harnesses so I don't know what to tell you there. it does take more time and money, but we feel like we get a cleaner product.
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Old 07-05-2016, 09:25 AM   #62
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Thanks for the reply

1. I will say that at the Forester division, they do a poor job of cleaning up after themselves. Every drawer, cavity, dash panel, etc. that I have opened or removed - I find sawdust, wire trimmings, knockout pieces. Don't even want to get into the never ending showers of Styrofoam beads from not using true a/c ducts.
2. I have found a lot of screws on our Forester MBS that are screwed into nothing, or overdriven and stripped out. Somebody is a little overzealous with the screwgun or there are no backers.
3. I've made several of the upgrades (like AGM batteries), Helwig, Koni FSD shocks, Kenwood DVD/Nuvi on our Forester and would have gladly paid for a "Platinum" version if it was offered. If Dynamax is the premium line, I think you should push for the premium MBS chassis with TPMS, steering wheel controls, HID headlights, foglights, etc.
4. Disappointing that the best practices from other divisions (which I assume were actually separate companies prior to purchase by FR/BH) - aren't spilling over to all divisions. Better processes lead to better quality, happier customers and lower warranty claims. The wiring on our Forester looks like a rat's nest. It's on my list to re-do one day, but harnesses should have been installed to begin with.
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Old 07-05-2016, 10:34 AM   #63
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1. brings up a point I often forget. We use foil faced ducts. Extra cost, but cuts clean with no debris. Although in theory, a molded duct is quieter, no tape seams or anything to collapse or come loose. The downside is if you have to cut into it.
2. I'd like to say I have not seen that on our stuff, but I have. Its really just making sure they're aware this stuff comes back to bite us. You might think you're getting away with something...but you're not. There needs to be a way to hold the line accountable, which we're always working on.
3. Steering wheel controls are in the works, not sure what else I'll get, but we do push for it.
4. I think you're see more of that..I know Forester is working on some new things and I assume that may require more use of harnesses. Having separate divisions running independently offers up some advantages, but as with any system there are some trade offs as well.

I can tell you when I left the Forester division they were blowing out the ducts at 3 stations along with line. They added additional cleaning stations and additional QC sign off processes. We're all always evolving, trying to take human error out of the process.
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Old 07-06-2016, 08:08 PM   #64
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1. it has absolutely ZERO to do with the cost of a Truma. You can't just send the door back and have us match lines, as the covers are different sizes. We would require the entire unit, or we risk you being unhappy because the lines don't match perfectly. We have been running the Atwood's without issue for some time on our REV model, so I'm not sure why you assume we know of some major issue. We made the change to the Truma on the REV first and that was simply a weight savings. The REV was too heavy for the new EPA weights and we saved about 35-40lbs by going from an Atwood water heater and furnace to a Truma-combi. We liked the performance and added features, so we made a change on the other Isata lines.

In any event its not my intent to sit here and banter back and forth....Please email your current location and full punch list to MSwihart@forestriverinc.com
My thought is where there's a will, there's a way, but it doesn't sound like you guys are interested in that. As requested, here's the punch list for my two month old, 2017 Dynamax Isata 3:

1) Water leak coming from under shower.....water leaks leaks from under the shower, under the wall and into bedroom.

2) Gray and black valve cable sheaths burnt completely through on generator exhaust. Cannot drain grey tank due to this issue.

3) Front lower slide gear rail is bowed in, unlike the other three, and slaps the side of the slide when the coach is in motion causing a loud banging sound.

4) Water pump leaks.

5) Hot water is unusable.....either scalding or cold with no ability to modulate the temperature.

6) Awning does not close correctly.....makes a loud clank and gets stuck upon nearing the end of closing.

7) Lighted entry handle doesn't light.

8) Wall in bathroom is delaminating and bowing out at the seem.

9) Coach wall trim is detaching from wall behind drivers seat.

10) Rear window shade is only attached to valence on one side making it hang crooked.

11) Stick-on faux counter top cover peeling off of bedroom night stand.

12) Room slide switch only has one screw anchored in firm wood. The screw on the other side is not anchored and not secured.

13) Squeaking floor substructure when someone walks near entry door.

14) TV mount directly over passenger head rattles loudly while coach is in motion.

I'll also pass this along to the email address you provided.
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Old 07-06-2016, 09:09 PM   #65
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I'm not sure where you have gathered that we're not interested in making things right? As I stated earlier, the "way" is to have the coach back at that plant for a change like that. It is my will for Atwood to stand behind their product and make sure it is operating like it should. If they cannot get it to operate as intended, then we would ask them to repair or replace the product with something that will. We'll be involved every step of the way.

One thing on the TV is we wanted to give you maximum flexibility...so it was installed with an articulating arm. The more joints, the more movement. Really the only option to reduce movement is a fixed mount. I just wanted you to be aware in case you used that feature and want to retain it, there is a trade off.
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Old 07-06-2016, 11:28 PM   #66
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I'm not sure where you have gathered that we're not interested in making things right? As I stated earlier, the "way" is to have the coach back at that plant for a change like that. It is my will for Atwood to stand behind their product and make sure it is operating like it should. If they cannot get it to operate as intended, then we would ask them to repair or replace the product with something that will. We'll be involved every step of the way.

One thing on the TV is we wanted to give you maximum flexibility...so it was installed with an articulating arm. The more joints, the more movement. Really the only option to reduce movement is a fixed mount. I just wanted you to be aware in case you used that feature and want to retain it, there is a trade off.
Understood on the TV. Hopefully, Atwood will be able to take care of it. As you know, I've been pretty down on that unit. It's because I've seen so many people unhappy with it online. It literally has, give or take, 1.5 star reviews across multiple sources......most citing similar problems to mine. I hope they can fix it, but because so many people have expressed that it is a flawed design, I'm concerned that I'm going to get the run around at the dealership and having to take it back multiple times for them to try to get it right. It's pretty stressful and a complete waste of time to keep returning to the repair shop for the same issue.....ask me how I know. . Thanks for the reply and have a good night.
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Old 07-07-2016, 10:23 AM   #67
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I have their manager involved and sent him copies of the forum posts. They worked great before the recall....I think their fix may have overcompensated. I'll have them look at all options. As a side note, the only way to do a swap in the field would be to not match the paint lines, but paint the door black. Would match the windows and other black trim. We have to let Atwood do their thing though.
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Old 07-07-2016, 02:24 PM   #68
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I have their manager involved and sent him copies of the forum posts. They worked great before the recall....I think their fix may have overcompensated. I'll have them look at all options. As a side note, the only way to do a swap in the field would be to not match the paint lines, but paint the door black. Would match the windows and other black trim. We have to let Atwood do their thing though.
Understood on the black water heater panel. I'd be fine with that if Atwood can't get this right. Also, the dinette USB ports and electrical outlets are now dead. Additionally, the dinette LED lights flash continually when turned on. Any thoughts?
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Old 07-07-2016, 02:33 PM   #69
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Could be a couple of different things.
1. are you plugged into 110V? If so, could be a breaker tripped. (outlets)
2. If not plugged in, your outlets could have worked via the inverter and now the batteries are low.

You're dealing with two systems. 12V (USB and lights) 110V (outlets). If lights everywhere else are working and you have all the other outlets working and are plugged in, I would look to the wire tray that goes in and out with the slide. I have seen those hang up or the connection get loose. Would need to know more about what's going on first.
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Old 07-07-2016, 03:11 PM   #70
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Could be a couple of different things.
1. are you plugged into 110V? If so, could be a breaker tripped. (outlets)
2. If not plugged in, your outlets could have worked via the inverter and now the batteries are low.

You're dealing with two systems. 12V (USB and lights) 110V (outlets). If lights everywhere else are working and you have all the other outlets working and are plugged in, I would look to the wire tray that goes in and out with the slide. I have seen those hang up or the connection get loose. Would need to know more about what's going on first.
We're not plugged in and the solar charge controller says the batteries are at full charge. Where is the wire tray that you mentioned? Thanks.
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