I'm not an electrician (though I have done some wiring), but I'm not following this at all. There is no current through neutral or ground wires. You will not have a short unless hot is shorting. AAMOF, on a 110V system, the neutral and ground wires are bonded together in the circuit panel and then actually grounded to a rod driven into the ground. A breaker should have tripped in that situation, IMHO.
Motorhomes are not wired like houses.
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Slim, RVing 30 plus years
2015 Dynamax DX3 37 RB
The DW read this thread and wanted me to ask you how you knew something was wrong.? Was is the smell of smoke? Were you sitting inside?
She is really glad no one was hurt.
Her reasoning for asking is the main reason for the coach in the first place is so when we vacate our dogs can go with us. I know that may be weird to some but our dogs are our kids now.
I smelled something burning and started looking around.. moving about the coach I located a receptacle smoking!!! At that point I went into action as fast as possible as I described in my first post. Get one of these for your door... hopefully there may be a chance.
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Slim, RVing 30 plus years
2015 Dynamax DX3 37 RB
Yes they are. They go by the NEC for the most part. They just use way cheaper devices. The problem is they don't have any inspectors like I have had all my life. They do whatever is faster and cheaper.
Yes they are. They go by the NEC for the most part. They just use way cheaper devices. The problem is they don't have any inspectors like I have had all my life. They do whatever is faster and cheaper.
Okay.. I'm not going to argue this with you.. I'm not an electrician either. I can tell you this.. your home doesn't use a transfer switch.. your house doesn't have a inverter system.. your house has a ground termination point via rod in the ground.. a motor home does not. Your house combines neutral and ground together at the panel a motorhome does not.. motorhomes are complex and ARE NOT THE SAME
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Slim, RVing 30 plus years
2015 Dynamax DX3 37 RB
Besides you being a master electrician as your profile states.. I'm sure you can school me.. however this is not about hijacking the direction of this post.. start another thread... I m always open for a lesson.
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Slim, RVing 30 plus years
2015 Dynamax DX3 37 RB
My bedroom and dinette are for sure on them as well. I think it’s more just wiring convenience but yeah get your point. And in this example that outlet definitely is not.
Just doubled checked mine.. it was like I thought. Wet areas..both bathrooms, kitchen and outdoor receptacle. Slides are not sadly.. nor is microwave or entertainment area TVs and so on..
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Slim, RVing 30 plus years
2015 Dynamax DX3 37 RB
I'm not an electrician (though I have done some wiring), but I'm not following this at all. There is no current through neutral or ground wires. You will not have a short unless hot is shorting. AAMOF, on a 110V system, the neutral and ground wires are bonded together in the circuit panel and then actually grounded to a rod driven into the ground. A breaker should have tripped in that situation, IMHO.
You are wrong dustman. In the RV panel they float. Neutral and ground are only bonded at the service entrance usually at the main breakers no matter what the electrical system. Go look up no shock zone for an explanation of what could happen with a RV.
You are wrong dustman. In the RV panel they float. Neutral and ground are only bonded at the service entrance usually at the main breakers no matter what the electrical system. Go look up no shock zone for an explanation of what could happen with a RV.
OK- I didn't think about inverters or generators and was only thinking about shore power. BUT- if the OP had his rig connected to shore power(sounds like he did), there would have been a connection to ground via the campground system. Regardless, no matter how it's wired, the entire point of a circuit breaker is to trip in case of a short. Unless I'm missing something else here????
Edit: Briefly explored that site. If you have an open ground I understand that breakers could not trip since the loop is open- until you touch the rig that is. But if the OP had a short, he clearly did not have an open ground situation. Back to this- why didn't the breaker on that circuit trip?
OK- I didn't think about inverters or generators and was only thinking about shore power. BUT- if the OP had his rig connected to shore power(sounds like he did), there would have been a connection to ground via the campground system. Regardless, no matter how it's wired, the entire point of a circuit breaker is to trip in case of a short. Unless I'm missing something else here????
I wish that were the case.. but it didn't as it wasn't GFCI protected. Regardless, not sure why it wouldn't trip a breaker before burning to the ground
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Slim, RVing 30 plus years
2015 Dynamax DX3 37 RB
OK- I didn't think about inverters or generators and was only thinking about shore power. BUT- if the OP had his rig connected to shore power(sounds like he did), there would have been a connection to ground via the campground system. Regardless, no matter how it's wired, the entire point of a circuit breaker is to trip in case of a short. Unless I'm missing something else here????
I'm sure it did trip at some point. The reality is the plastic along with the insulation on the neutral and ground was melting. If the hot wire was also burning and but touching the neutral and grounds the breaker would not trip. When it finally did trip the fire can still burn on its own without electricity.
I wish that were the case.. but it didn't as it wasn't GFCI protected. Regardless, not sure why it wouldn't trip a breaker before burning to the ground
In order to trip the breaker, the hot wire must come in contact with the neutral or the ground. If it does not, it will not trip. On a gfi circuit on the other hand, there is a measuring device built in that measures voltage in and voltage out with a small millimeter amount of leakage allowed. This probably would not have happened on a GFI circuit. That being said, you do not want everything on a GFI circuit. Things would stay tripped more than you could put up with.
Actually on a GFCI outlet or breaker, it's measuring the current in the hot and neutral legs and allowing for a very tiny amount of current leakage difference. That's one reason they are pretty quick.
AFCI (Arc Fault) may likely have actually seen the arc start and shut off before it got very far. That's why in homes, AFCI breakers are required for at least all bedrooms. There's some good articles on exactly how AFCI work, but basically looking for the signature of an arc.
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Aaron
2019 DX3 36FK
All Electric w/Cab Over
In order to trip the breaker, the hot wire must come in contact with the neutral or the ground. If it does not, it will not trip. On a gfi circuit on the other hand, there is a measuring device built in that measures voltage in and voltage out with a small millimeter amount of leakage allowed. This probably would not have happened on a GFI circuit. That being said, you do not want everything on a GFI circuit. Things would stay tripped more than you could put up with.
Cavie, I believe you meant to say "current" instead of voltage, and milliamps instead of millimeters.
I'm sure it did trip at some point. The reality is the plastic along with the insulation on the neutral and ground was melting. If the hot wire was also burning and but touching the neutral and grounds the breaker would not trip. When it finally did trip the fire can still burn on its own without electricity.
I was thinking that the breaker should trip long before enough heat was built up to start a fire, but maybe not? It would have been a direct short????
I think I had a post some years ago about this very issue.
Basically, in a circuit protected only by a breaker, a high resistance short (like a water bridge) between a hot wire and neutral/ground or a loose connection can cause significant heat without cascading the breaker.
The more heat that's generated over time, the higher the resistance of the bridge becomes and even more heat is generated until a fire starts. The breaker may or may not ever see a high enough current to actually trip.
Think of a toaster. You can cause a fire burning the toast without the counter GFCI or circuit breaker ever tripping. The high resistance wire generates all the heat needed to start a heck of a fire.
Your only warning that this is happening could be odor, smoke, low voltage (dim / flickering lights or appliance fails to operate as expected), or a heat damaged or physically warm outlet or appliance cord.
GFCI works by monitoring the current going into the line hot wire and exiting the line neutral wire. A discrepancy above the tolerance setting will instantly result in a GFCI trip regardless of current.
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Lou & Freya the wonder dog
2008 GMC Sierra 3000HD Allison Duramax
2019 Flagstaff 8529FL
Did you see water leaking in from the seam that you sealed or are you assuming that had to be the source of your water infiltration since the caulking was bad? The reason I ask is I also had a leak in the same area, mine ended up running out of the TV cabnet. My leak ended up being up on the roof above the TV where the front cap meets the roof. Luckily mine didn't get on any receptacles. I also had a leak on the drivers side where the front cap meets the roof and it shorted out my slide controllers causing the slides to move on there own. Had to buy new controllers and reset all the stops. Just want to make sure you cover all your bases in finding your leak. Sorry for your bad luck but glad you're safe.
You don't need a short on hot to trip a breaker. A breaker will trip without any short at all. All you need to trip a breaker is for the current to exceed the rating of the breaker. Draw more than 15 amps on a 15 amp breaker and it should trip. Unfortunately though, wet outlets can arc and get hot enough to burn plastic before exceeding the amp draw necessary to trip the breaker.
Ray
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2017 Rockwood 2109S
Ram 1500
Me Her And a furry little dog
US Navy Veteran
A breaker will not trip until there is a short from hot to ground or neutral. The burning insulation may burn back neutral and ground wires and short them out but that will not trip a breaker. Only hot to ground or neutral will trip the breaker. A lot of plastic can burn before that happens.
I understand what you’re saying but you have to have a short from the hot to generate enough heat to start a fire.
Did you see water leaking in from the seam that you sealed or are you assuming that had to be the source of your water infiltration since the caulking was bad? The reason I ask is I also had a leak in the same area, mine ended up running out of the TV cabnet. My leak ended up being up on the roof above the TV where the front cap meets the roof. Luckily mine didn't get on any receptacles. I also had a leak on the drivers side where the front cap meets the roof and it shorted out my slide controllers causing the slides to move on there own. Had to buy new controllers and reset all the stops. Just want to make sure you cover all your bases in finding your leak. Sorry for your bad luck but glad you're safe.
Yes it was confirmed. I used compressed air to verify while my wife was inside with a flashlight. The water leak started below the TV. One my ask, what's the likelihood that could happen? All the conditions were just right and it did.. thanks for the reply. Roof seams around cap all good as I resealed last year with proflex.
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Slim, RVing 30 plus years
2015 Dynamax DX3 37 RB
2011 Flagstaff 831 RLBSS
Linear Mode
