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Old 11-14-2016, 01:54 PM   #1
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DEF concerns

I have a 2014 Ram 3500 in the shop right now (second time in a week) with DEF issues. Replaced SCR, DEF injector, sensor, etc. just because the DEF degraded and clogged the system. The thing is, manufacturers know this stuff can go bad in as little as 3 months when exposed to hot temperatures, but they keep it a secret. Heck, the def jugs has the fill date in cryptic numerical code you must decipher.

My point is this, those of us that have purchased an MBS know that the chassis is made in Germany, shipped to US, sits in a MH manufacturer's yard, has the coach built, and shipped to the dealer where it may sit some more. It is very likely a year or more has passed since the DEF was filled in Germany by the time you make your first trip. Little do you know, the DEF system may already be compromised!

Because of my Ram, I decided I had better drain and refill the DEF in the MBS. The problem is, they don't make it very easy to drain. I could not find a drain plug and seems it must be pumped out. I called the Sprinter shop and the tech said the shelf life is an average of 6 months in our area. I look in the manual and it said to add DEF at 20,000 miles. This means you need to drive 40,000 miles a year??? This is crazy, they need to provide a convenient way to drain old DEF!

Beware folks, tech informed me that they test the DEF when there is a problem. If it tests bad, the emissions warranty will not cover it!
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Old 11-14-2016, 02:07 PM   #2
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DEF tank in our 2012 is much smaller than called out in owner's manual. If your fill is under the hood as ours is, suspect you also have the smaller tank. Mine triggers the first warning at about 2.3 gallons used. A little over 4000 miles, on my Solera.
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Old 11-14-2016, 04:24 PM   #3
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Quote:
My point is this, those of us that have purchased an MBS know that the chassis is made in Germany, shipped to US, sits in a MH manufacturer's yard, has the coach built, and shipped to the dealer where it may sit some more. It is very likely a year or more has passed since the DEF was filled in Germany by the time you make your first trip. Little do you know, the DEF system may already be compromised!
We've talked about DEF many times here. I went to Mercedes service dept with these concerns and they flat out told not to worry about it. Fill tank when ever I want. Only time that I check expiration date is when I buy new DEF. I know exactly when it needs the whole 2.5 gallons. Keep my fingers cross so far it seems to works fine.
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Old 11-14-2016, 05:55 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Hexnut View Post
I have a 2014 Ram 3500 in the shop right now (second time in a week) with DEF issues. Replaced SCR, DEF injector, sensor, etc. just because the DEF degraded and clogged the system. The thing is, manufacturers know this stuff can go bad in as little as 3 months when exposed to hot temperatures, but they keep it a secret. Heck, the def jugs has the fill date in cryptic numerical code you must decipher.

My point is this, those of us that have purchased an MBS know that the chassis is made in Germany, shipped to US, sits in a MH manufacturer's yard, has the coach built, and shipped to the dealer where it may sit some more. It is very likely a year or more has passed since the DEF was filled in Germany by the time you make your first trip. Little do you know, the DEF system may already be compromised!

Because of my Ram, I decided I had better drain and refill the DEF in the MBS. The problem is, they don't make it very easy to drain. I could not find a drain plug and seems it must be pumped out. I called the Sprinter shop and the tech said the shelf life is an average of 6 months in our area. I look in the manual and it said to add DEF at 20,000 miles. This means you need to drive 40,000 miles a year??? This is crazy, they need to provide a convenient way to drain old DEF!

Beware folks, tech informed me that they test the DEF when there is a problem. If it tests bad, the emissions warranty will not cover it!
You are not getting the straight story from your Benz dealer. What was your initial reason that sent you to the dealer. Reply back and I'll tell you what I uncovered from my MBtech guy, before he was told to clam up.
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Old 11-14-2016, 09:29 PM   #5
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You are not getting the straight story from your Benz dealer. What was your initial reason that sent you to the dealer. Reply back and I'll tell you what I uncovered from my MBtech guy, before he was told to clam up.
I called the Sprinter shop because I had the MBS for 16 months and no telling how old the DEF really was. I wanted their opinion on what I should do. He advised pumping it out, replacing the DEF and driving 50 miles to get the new stuff in the system. I have no CEL on, but I want to be on the safe side and plan to do that.
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Old 11-14-2016, 11:03 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Hexnut View Post
I called the Sprinter shop because I had the MBS for 16 months and no telling how old the DEF really was. I wanted their opinion on what I should do. He advised pumping it out, replacing the DEF and driving 50 miles to get the new stuff in the system. I have no CEL on, but I want to be on the safe side and plan to do that.

What I've noted about this stuff is it's ok for at least a year when stored between 10-90F. When it begins to break down or evaporate, "salt" crystals begin to form on nearby surfaces i.e.: tubing, float levels and plug and restrict. Not sure it's added at chassis plant, more likely final inspection here or the delivery dealer.
I agree with your decision if it's never been added to or changed.
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Old 11-15-2016, 08:12 AM   #7
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This email from Peak explains how to "decode" the date on Blu Def containers.....

Hello,

Thank you for your email.

The product has a two year shelf life assuming it has been stored at 86 F or less. If it stored above 86 degrees, then it can be reduced down to six months.

Here is an example code that deciphers the batch code for diesel exhaust fluid.


Example Code |Method to Decipher
----------------------------+----------------------------------
PB160071555 |PB = LOCATION
|16 = Year + 1 (2015)
|007 = Days remaining in year
|(Reverse Julian Date) December
|25th
|1555 = Batch Code


The first two letters or numbers can change depending on blend facility but the codes all translate the same based off of ISO standards.

Regards,

Peak Tech Services
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Old 11-15-2016, 10:05 AM   #8
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How does one check their def level? In my MB there is no indicator nor dip stick type apparatus. I've always carried a gallon just in case.
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Old 11-15-2016, 12:28 PM   #9
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On our 2012 Solera, I know of no way to check the DEF level, other than the warning light when the level is down to about 1.5 gallons (as I remember - covered in owner's manual). Will take about 2.25 gallons when the light first comes on.
I understand from the forum newer Sprinters have a DEF level indicator accessible prior to start (key in accessory or something like that) by scrolling through messages on the dash. Mine doesn't have that, check your owner's manual.
There is a note under the hood on mine that says to add a minimum of two gallons of DEF once the warning light triggers. I therefore carry two gallons with me. I have found that if I refill just after the warning light, it won't take a standard 2.5 gallon container of DEF - overflows. Will take two single gallon containers.
On mine - and as others have reported - the DEF warning light is somewhat slow in resetting. If I turn the key until all the indicators light, wait for them to go off, start the vehicle, shut it off, and repeat it usually resets. Sometimes takes additional cycle to get it reset. Suspect this "stubbornness" on resting is the reason for the "add a minimum of two gallons" warning.
I have found that I use about one gallon of DEF every 1900 +/- miles. I log the mileage when I add DEF and try to add before the warning light triggers, using my log and the 1900 miles per gallon estimate is usage.

FYI
Jim
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Old 11-16-2016, 02:03 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Hexnut View Post
I called the Sprinter shop because I had the MBS for 16 months and no telling how old the DEF really was. I wanted their opinion on what I should do. He advised pumping it out, replacing the DEF and driving 50 miles to get the new stuff in the system. I have no CEL on, but I want to be on the safe side and plan to do that.
Hex, your post reply above does not talk about your SCR, etc. issue and what that has to do with the DEF shelf life. I'll state again that you're dealer isn't shooting you straight on what is going on. Why did they replace thousands of $ of parts on your MB. What cel's were you getting, if any, to get you into your MB dealer for big buck replacement items. Then I'll tell you what I was told by my MB tech, before he was then told to stop talking to me, if you care to hear. Just sayin'
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Old 11-16-2016, 02:14 PM   #11
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I try to not let the warning light come on, due to the "stubbornness " issue of resetting. Mine to does not have the later def level feature that shows in the cluster display mode as well. So, I also keep track of miles driven, then when its getting to that add point, I pour and listen for that tell tale noise you get, that your approaching full. Wella, 30K later and it works for me.
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Old 11-16-2016, 03:38 PM   #12
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Still Kickin....you've got my interest. I'd like to hear what was told to you about the DEF.

My 2016 ('15 chassis) has the gauge in the dash. I fill it when it is down about 1/2. I live in Phoenix Az. I surely don't drive mine every day or every weekend. It sits a lot in above 90*. Should I be worried?
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Old 11-20-2016, 07:53 AM   #13
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Let me clarify a couple things. It was not my MBS that needed work, it was my Ram truck. My MBS did not show any codes, it was my truck. The action I took on my MBS was purely preventative.

That aside, DEF will age and is temperature sensitive. As DEF degrades, the urea concentration gets out of range, it needs to be at 32.5% or close to it. Mine tested at 35% and needed replacement. Left alone, it is likely that the MBS would have shown a code and needed work. Replacing the DEF is cheap compared to the alternative, the problem is that it is not made as easy as it should be. The manufacturer's know that MHs sit around more than other vehicles and that DEF goes bad, therefore the DEF tank needs a drain plug!
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Old 12-08-2016, 06:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreiHunde View Post
This email from Peak explains how to "decode" the date on Blu Def containers.....

Hello,

Thank you for your email.

The product has a two year shelf life assuming it has been stored at 86 F or less. If it stored above 86 degrees, then it can be reduced down to six months.

Here is an example code that deciphers the batch code for diesel exhaust fluid.


Example Code |Method to Decipher
----------------------------+----------------------------------
PB160071555 |PB = LOCATION
|16 = Year + 1 (2015)
|007 = Days remaining in year
|(Reverse Julian Date) December
|25th
|1555 = Batch Code


The first two letters or numbers can change depending on blend facility but the codes all translate the same based off of ISO standards.

Regards,

Peak Tech Services
Only one reason to make dating so complicated,.....to keep John Doe in the dark. Now I have one more thing to add to my list to be concerned about, and I so looking forward to my new MBS 2400W.
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Old 12-08-2016, 06:51 PM   #15
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Only one reason to make dating so complicated,.....to keep John Doe in the dark. Now I have one more thing to add to my list to be concerned about, and I so looking forward to my new MBS 2400W.
Just buy from someplace that sells a high volume. A lot of folks buy it at truck stops if they have one nearby. I buy mine at Sam's Cub. In fact last week the jug I bought was bottled in November of this year.
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Old 12-08-2016, 08:21 PM   #16
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Still Kickin....you've got my interest. I'd like to hear what was told to you about the DEF.

My 2016 ('15 chassis) has the gauge in the dash. I fill it when it is down about 1/2. I live in Phoenix Az. I surely don't drive mine every day or every weekend. It sits a lot in above 90*. Should I be worried?
Well this is what I was told. Again this was from the MB tech upon diagnosis, upon picking it up, he wasn't allowed to talk to me. You can imagine, given a day to digest that tidbit, more questions came to mind that I was going to ask. I was getting a NOX sensor failure code. Upon drop off he said MB is seeing an inordinate amount of emissions failures in Sprinter 3500 chassis, when married to near max weight RVs and ambulance buildout. Its believed that engine loads along with DEF injection rates is causing premature issues with the SCR. So, in my case they changed the SCR, NOX sensors (2) and the DEF injector. I never, like I said, was allowed to drill into this guy on pickup day, on what specific diagnostic test he did,giving him authority to put a couple thousand bucks of parts and labor upfront on drop off day into my solara. Here is the rub, because the total fleet numbers of RV and ambulance 3500s out there are small, in comparison to say Fedex vans, the trigger point to cover potential early failure items (like mine was) under a customer courtesy extended warranty doesn't surface I believe, like the current EGR extended warranty announced by MB. But until other issues surface its a crap shoot in my opinion.
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Old 12-08-2016, 08:50 PM   #17
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Expired DEF? Send it to me. I use that stuff for fertilizing my hayfields. IMO, thats all t's good for anyway.

Cat pee in a jug.
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Old 12-10-2016, 07:26 AM   #18
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All this talk of MB exhaust system failure has me worried I will end up on the hook of a tow truck.

Is the MB chassis able to be towed with out pulling the drive shaft or a rear axle to keep the transmission intact?

Couldn't find towing info in the MB book.
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Old 12-10-2016, 10:14 AM   #19
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Its not going to fail. I have only experienced a NOX sensor failure. The primary reason for such failures is the injection of DEF after combustion, that in turn effectively "cools" the gases, playing havoc with the ceramic parts of the NOX sensors. This causes micro cracks in the ceramic leading to NOX sensor failure.
The long of my previous post is this; you have the mandates from the feds dictating standards, and the industry engineers designing systems to meet those standards. Thus, we get caught in the middle. The "out" is getting the feds to push mfg to extend coverage, when failure rates exceed normal expectations for a given part. MB has gone and done that with their increase in the warranty on the EGR valve, because of moisture issues associated with causing increased failures. It's all small stuff. The big stuff was settled in November.

Oh, and to your question, it needs to be flatbeded.
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Old 12-10-2016, 11:34 AM   #20
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77K miles, no exhaust or emissions system issues. I was towed once - Electronic Stability Controller failed - big wrecker, disconnected driveshaft. Disconnecting driveshaft took the wrecker driver less than ten minutes; about the same to reconnect after the tow.
Wrecker driver said problem with flatbread - too tall for some underpasses.
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