Help anyone, weak brake issues!

[mber]

weak brakes. Help needed anyone.
Hi,

I bought a 2013 365SAQ sandpiper 5th wheel last summer and from the beginning this trailer has been plagued with weak brakes. The axles are 6000# AL-KO with self adjusting brakes. Controller is maxed out 10 and can barely stop the trailer. Trailer weights 14000lbs.

I adjusted the brake shoes as close as possible to the hub. Still have weak brake.

Truck brake controller is working fine as we tested it on a different 365 with Lippert axle. With this trailer we could not get the controller higher then 3.5 on the controller without the wheel locking up.

I've checked each magnet amps individual and they are all drawing 3.2amps. Ohms are OK as well. Amps loading of all the magnet at the plug is 11amps.

I've removed all the drums to inspect if there was any issues, I could not see anything wrong.

I am in the process of replacing the brakes backing plates to 6000# dexter as I have seen that the magnet is a lot bigger on these.

Dealer is no help as I suspect he thinks I'm imagining the issues. There are some brake, but nothing that could stop me in a emergency. It doesn't help that the dealer is also 800miles away!

Does anyone have any suggestion from replacing all the brakes.

Have anyone else experience issues with AL-KO brakes.

Any suggestion would be greatly appreciated

[Ida Ratherbe Camping]

Are the shoes installed correctly? Not familiar with your set up but I know on autos, they have a long and a short shoe, install backwards, no brakes.

[midnightpumpkin]

The left and right side brake assemblies are different. Could they be installed on the wrong side?

John U

[DDC]

Originally Posted by Ida Ratherbe Camping

Are the shoes installed correctly? Not familiar with your set up but I know on autos, they have a long and a short shoe, install backwards, no brakes.

I am a mechanic and this was the first thing I thought of, the leading and trailing shoes mixed up.

[rwpdir]

MBER, I have a 13 365 and am experiencing the same issue. Have had truck checked at GM dealer and all is good. Trailer brakes were adjusted by tech and they say they are good, however, I am at 8 on the controler to get drag and at 10 I can't lock it up. I am open to suggestions as well. As much as I like my trailer dealer he seems to be lost on this one too.

[mber]

No, I checked the shoes. They are ok. On the right way. I even checked to make sure that the assemblies were on the right side.

I've dismantled all the magnet and ohm them. They all read about 3.2 ohms no short. Amp reading about 3.2amps.

Question, have self adjusted brakes been around for a while? The magnet are extremely small compared to dexter manual brakes. See pictures. I'm wondering if this could be the issues.

Also, has any seen a drum with this type of pattern in it?

I suspect this drum will need to be re-turned. Does anyone know if they turn the part were the magnet contact or should I get two new drum.

I'm not impress with AL-KO brakes.

I think I will replace all the brakes assembly with dexters and get all the drums turned just to make sure there nothing wrong with them as well. As you can see I the picture, they are suspect.

Then pull a 10gauge wire to the brakes just to make sure there is enough current to the brake. All do I had 11 amps when I did a load check from the 7 pin plug.

I hate packing bearings with grease!

I sure wish there was a forestriver dealer close by!

If any has any other suggestion or something else I should be doing, please let me know.

[ChooChooMan74]

This may sound expensive, but my family is woth every penny. I would convert to discs. I have even thought about doing it to the roo, but brakes work very well.

[mber]

Originally Posted by rwpdir

MBER, I have a 13 365 and am experiencing the same issue. Have had truck checked at GM dealer and all is good. Trailer brakes were adjusted by tech and they say they are good, however, I am at 8 on the controler to get drag and at 10 I can't lock it up. I am open to suggestions as well. As much as I like my trailer dealer he seems to be lost on this one too.

RWPDIR,

My truck too is a GM with intergrated controller. I work fine on my father-in-law trailer "365 Seville" crossroad. He can't get the controller pass 3.5 without locking.

I'm at 10 and can barely get the trailer to slowdown. Hell, I can pull the trailer with the knob at 10 and the wheel are turning. Not what I'm accustomed to. My dealer and two other mechanics at a lost. It has to be the type of brakes.

Are your AL-KO too. Did you get lippert brake instructions and then found out it was AL-ko axle on your trailer?

Did your trailer surge intermittently at 30km/hr. Felt like the drum were out of round.

Do a load check at the 7 pin plug. It was at 8amps until a ran another wire. It got to 11 amps with a new 12 gauge wire. Help a little but not enough for me.

[garbonz]

if you are changing, go get electric over hydraulic disc brakes. They are way better

[transamz9]

Call Forest River and see what trailer shop they can recommend that is closer to you. In all honesty, the dealers can't do much more than sell accessories IMO. You are not getting the signal from the truck to the axles for some reason. My 345 RET will lock-em down at 30 MPH.

[mber]

That's what I originally though some I ran a 12 gauge wire directly to the brakes. It help a little but not enough. It must be the brakes or hubs.

Nearest dealer is 5 hrs await. If you count the gas and time missed at work, it cheaper to try and resolve myself.

I will send a picture of the drum to see if I can get money back. I don't think they would ship the drums to me because of the weight.

[Rtazz17]

Do you feel as though the trailer is pushing you as you come to a stop?
I have the same camper.I cant lock my brakes when pulling the slide control either.I dont believe you should be able to on dry pavement.The camper weighs 13-14k.Not light by any stretch.It takes time to stop.Now if you feel like its going to come through your back window thats a dif story.I cant stop on a dime either.Sorry if Im not understanding your problem completely.

[chiro]

I have a f 250 2011 and tow a 365 saq. I run my built in controller at 9 or 10. The trailer brakes will help stop the rig. It won't stop or lock up the trailer brakes like a lighter trailer. These are very heavy rvs. I know if you upgrade to the 7k axles then you get the bigger tires and heavier brakes and pads. There is a post on the site here about the 7 k axles that talks about this. I think what you are describing might be normal.

[rwpdir]

Chiro, the fact that our trailers are so heavy makes it that much more imparative that the brakes work properly and assist in stopping not just slowing the load. Going over the Rockies last year there was an occation or two that had a definate pucker factor. If we can't stop we shouldn't be on the road. This is a definate "safety Issue". If any FR moderators are reading they need to jump on this. There are three of us who have admitted having the problem. How many more have it and are not speaking about it beause they don't know any better?

[Bill_C]

Originally Posted by mber

No, I checked the shoes. They are ok. On the right way. I even checked to make sure that the assemblies were on the right side.

I've dismantled all the magnet and ohm them. They all read about 3.2 ohms no short. Amp reading about 3.2amps.

Question, have self adjusted brakes been around for a while? The magnet are extremely small compared to dexter manual brakes. See pictures. I'm wondering if this could be the issues.

Also, has any seen a drum with this type of pattern in it?

I suspect this drum will need to be re-turned. Does anyone know if they turn the part were the magnet contact or should I get two new drum.

I'm not impress with AL-KO brakes.

I think I will replace all the brakes assembly with dexters and get all the drums turned just to make sure there nothing wrong with them as well. As you can see I the picture, they are suspect.

Looking at the picture of your magnet I would say the wear shows poor contact with the brake drum. The way these drums heat up I would not have them turned. Replace them and replace the magnets.

It is the surface contact with the drum and how hard the magnet tries to stick to the drum that determines the braking effort. More power applied to the magnet the more powerful the magnet becomes and the harder it sticks to the drum. By the look of the wear on the magnet I would say you are getting 50% contact to the drum.

The way the brake works is the magnet tries to rotate with the drum when the brake is applied. It can't of course, so it slips. On trying to rotate it pushes the front shoe into the drum. The front shoe now tries to rotate with the drum and does, a little. As it tries to rotate it pushes the back shoe tight into the drum via the adjuster on the bottom. Thus the term, 'self energizing brakes'. This is also why the rear shoe will wear out while the front shoe still looks new. That is also why the long shoe goes on the rear as it does most of the braking while the front shoe just shoves the rear shoe back tight into the drum.

So, to sum it up. If you are only getting 50% contact to the drum with the magnet, full power to the magnet will equal only 50% effort.

[Bill_C]

Originally Posted by Rtazz17

Do you feel as though the trailer is pushing you as you come to a stop?
I have the same camper.I cant lock my brakes when pulling the slide control either.I dont believe you should be able to on dry pavement.The camper weighs 13-14k.Not light by any stretch.It takes time to stop.Now if you feel like its going to come through your back window thats a dif story.I cant stop on a dime either.Sorry if Im not understanding your problem completely.

You are right on here. Lock-up of the trailer wheels is rare on pavement. (I always test lock-up on a gravel road.) If I can feel the trailer pulling back when I apply my manual application lever then I know the brakes are working and all I need to adjust is the how aggressive they apply. With perfectly working trailer brakes will I stop as fast as with no trailer at all? Never. Make stop allowances with space and get used to cursing the fool who fills that space while you are trying to stop.

[transamz9]

My 345RET is not quite as heavy but it's close. When I hit the controller manually is feels like it is going to yank the hitch out of my truck. You people have something wrong with you brakes if it is not doing the same thing with you. I also have 6,000#axles.

As a matter of fact, I use my manual switch on my controller to stop my rig. I use very little truck brake. I run my box turned all the way up so I have full power in an emergency .

[mber]

Yes,

This is my plan this week.

I am replacing all 4 drums and backing plate.

Backing plate will be dexters (CSA approved 6000lbs) brakes. Apparently, Dexter makes two different 6000 lbs brakes with different Canadian rating. See attached. The CSA 6000lbs have 7000 lbs pads. I guessing CSA regulation require a certain amount of stopping force to rate them to 6000lbs. So watch out when you buy them.

Axle tek make CSA certified brakes as well but them are based in China and I didn't any tech support for them.

Dexter have great tech support as when I called them they gave me great advise.

I suspect AL-KO brakes maybe a little under sized. Can't tell if they are CSA approved so am guessing they are only rated to 5200lbs in Canada.

total cost as right know.

backing plates with brakes $400
new drums $400
New wiring $120

Now, I would have let Forestriver take care of this, but summer is only 8 weeks long up here and I don't want to lose the entire summer debating with them what wrong with there brake design. Them sending me multiple garages. Re explain my story to people who problably never pulled large trailer telling me it all in my imagination.

Me, the thing need to stop quickly. When you get to a intersection and lights turns red or someone cuts you off, that trailer better have some serious working brakes. Don't need to see black marks on the pavement but their better be serious pull back.

[Rtazz17]

You will never stop as fast as a unloaded truck.. You keep yourself as best you can out of an emergency type brakeing situation.. If someone cuts you off and stops dead its their fault..14k behind you...

[ChooChooMan74]

Originally Posted by mber

backing plates with brakes $400
new drums $400
New wiring $120

Looks like you're spending a bit of change. If it was me, I would put a few more bucks into it.

http://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Trai..._lbs_Axle.aspx

Disc brake kits - $250 or so per axle

http://www.etrailer.com/dept-pg-Trai..._Actuator.aspx

Actuator - $600 or so

Misc parts - $200ish

Family Safety - Priceless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2JU...e_gdata_player