05' 37SP Sierra 5er...photos of cracked frame

[savente29]

LCI's response:

Good Afternoon,

Have you contacted your insurance company in regards to this? At this time, I show no history on Forest River Sierra with any frame issue from the date range of 2004-2015. The manufacture warranty is good for one year after date of purchase. The warranty is not extended to a 2nd owner. At this time, Lippert is unable to participate in any warranty coverage on this unit.

Thank you,

Tara Speed
Technical Service Representative
w: 574.537.8900 | f: 574.534.7161
Interested in LCI training?
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[savente29]

My response to LCI:

Good Morning,

This isn’t about a warranty, this I understand. This is about a manufacturer defect on a joint that wasn’t welded properly and led to failure of the frame.

Please take a second look at the photos; especially the photos of the front corners of the hitch pin.

Can you please escalate this issue to your supervisor for additional review?

Thanks,
Mike

[savente29]

My follow up with FR (Wayne Bigler)

Good Morning Wayne,

Can you please read my response to Tara with Lippert and let me where Forest River stands on a manufacturer defect that led to failure of the frame?

Lippert produced the frame; their QC failed to identify the critically missed weld. Forest River takes delivery of the frame and also fails to identify the critically missing weld.

Please let me know where Forest River stands on this issue so that may know how to proceed.

Thanks,
Mike

[geotex1]

savente29, You are following the best course of action thusfar. I personally feel it too early to get NHTSA involved, but I also have very different experience and understanding on matters such as these.

Anyway, you have the position of Lippert, and it is interesting to note they have no record of similar with application. Has FR responded with theirs yet? Next thing you want to do is get your insurance involved, and then you will need a LICENSED engineer involved to take a look at things who can render a learned, professional opinion. Do not go by comments being made on the forum from a couple of pictures in minimal angles and views, and also don't rely on it looking like new translating to the prior owner being gentle. An engineer worth his license will look at it forensically and likely see telltales you and most others do not. You need that engineer to render an opinion of manufacturing defect for it to have any teeth in the fight.

[savente29]

Thanks for the support! This will be an interesting learning experience for me and those following at home...

[savente29]

LCI's response:

Michael,

I understand your concern. At this time, as I provided in my previous email, I did a search on this unit make and model from 2004 forward, we show no history on frame issues. If this was a manufacture defect, we would have had an issue or been notified of a component defect before 11 years after manufacture date.

Thank you,
Tara

[savente29]

My response to LCI:

Tara,

Thanks for your response. It is abundantly clear that LCI doesn’t intended to take any responsibility for poor workmanship and choices in materials which led directly to the critical failure of the frame. Thank God my family and/or others were not injured or killed.

You may want to search RV forums to see other examples of LPI frame failures…there are plenty out there.

Example…

http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...me-9307-2.html

Regards,
Mike

[SKnight]

Originally Posted by savente29

The trailer was never overloaded or abused under my watch and the previous owner hardly used it...was like new even at 8 years old.

In the picture the edges look pretty smooth to me showing there wasn't a weld done on the back side either but I'll take a closer look....

Update Jeffrey Johnson (FR) forwarded my email to Wayne Bigler (FR)....

Bigler (FR) left me a VM and then followed up with an email asking for pics and directed me to call the frame manufacturer (866-524-7821)...

I sent Bigler (FR) and email with pics and VIN for his review...

I called LCI, spoke with Tara, explained issue, was given Ref # and asked to send email with photos to warranty@lci1.com...

I sent email to LCI explaining my discovery with photos to document my findings...

I just received an automated email from LCI asking for everything I had just sent...

I responded and sent everything they asked for...

Now working on report to NHTSA...

I'm glad you're getting somewhere, but Jeff Johnson got back to you?

He's not on my Christmas card list.

[savente29]

FR response:

Michael
This will be handled by our California plant because the trailer was made at their facility the contact there is X at 909-xxx-xxxx or e-mail xxxx@forestriverinc.com

Wayne Bigler
Forest River Inc.
Customer Service Rep

******************************

I sent an email to X at the California plant requesting how to proceed...

[savente29]

No response so I called....Robbie said he hadn't read the email yet and asked for an explanation on how is he gonna sell fixing a frame to his manager for a trailer built in 04' to a now a 2nd owner since 13'...he mentioned workmanship and defects are only covered for 1 year and he didn't' know if it was a Lippert frame...I advised that neither Wayne (FR) nor Tara (LCI) denied that it was not a Lippert frame (then yelled over his shoulder to some guy who confirmed Lippert built the frame based on the year).

Then I asked about gross negligence for missing a weld in a critical component like the hitch pin that led to a failure in the frame.

He will review and get back to me sometime next week...

[AquaMan]

Is there any way you can pinpoint on the pictures where the missing weld is, and where the frame is broken? From an engineering perspective, I'm trying to confirm if one caused the other, and if so, which one was the first failure, but not sure where each is. As of now, you have 2 points of failure, (a weld and a crack). Can you say with certainty which one was caused first? I'm just playing devil's advocate here, as I'm curious, because I own a Sierra, as to if there was neglect by the previous owner or if it was indeed a defect.

[DDC]

This one shows a separation caused by a cold tack weld, you should/could assume that that failure would have disastrous consequences.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by Rodgers

I would definitely get Lippert on the line. I would also get Forest River as well. This is a Quality Control Issue and should have never been assembled to that camper. This was a line or final inspector that didn't do their job This is a duel quality control problem If you are a member of FROG Bob Byrne he could get you the contact info and name of the plant manager where the Sierra 5th wheels are built.In Indiana

The root cause is the welder didn't do his job and the problem grew because the inspector didn't find it.

[AquaMan]

But is this weld on a corner or is it "T'd" into the opposing beam? If T'd in, is it welded down the backside where we can't see? Is there additional structural bracing that's welded to the backside of this? I've seen structures that have been welded down just one side of a cross brace. I'm only saying this, because at the moment, by looking at only pictures from one angle, I'm only getting part of the story. Without some kind of additional welding, I don't see how that tack weld lasted 10yrs.

Since this is a toy hauler, what kind of "toys" are you hauling?

[DDC]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

The root cause is the welder didn't do his job and the problem grew because the inspector didn't find it.

There's an inspector, that assumes quality control.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by DDC

There's an inspector, that assumes quality control.

Still doesn't change the root cause. That's where the corrective action has to start. Inspectors do not weld, but they ARE supposed to catch the errors.

[savente29]

Originally Posted by AquaMan

Is there any way you can pinpoint on the pictures where the missing weld is, and where the frame is broken? From an engineering perspective, I'm trying to confirm if one caused the other, and if so, which one was the first failure, but not sure where each is. As of now, you have 2 points of failure, (a weld and a crack). Can you say with certainty which one was caused first? I'm just playing devil's advocate here, as I'm curious, because I own a Sierra, as to if there was neglect by the previous owner or if it was indeed a defect.

Both problems occurred on the driver side of the cab....the single cold weld is the very front driver side corner of the hitch pin and the cracked frame is the driver side support beam from hitch pin to vertical support connecting it to the chassis frame.

Can I say which occurred first...not really but a logical guess is the negligent single weld occurred first which put additional stress (no longer distributing the stress across both 2 support beams) on the driver side beam which caused it to fail and was revealed throught the stress cracked in the fiberglass...bad welder at Lippert, negligent QC at Lippert and grossly negligent QC at Forest River.

I've seen pics on this forum were people removed the under skin and added piece of angle iron and welded over the front corners of the hitch pin area to reinforce it...I'm guessing that would have saved me the cracked frame.

[savente29]

Originally Posted by AquaMan

But is this weld on a corner or is it "T'd" into the opposing beam? If T'd in, is it welded down the backside where we can't see? Is there additional structural bracing that's welded to the backside of this? I've seen structures that have been welded down just one side of a cross brace. I'm only saying this, because at the moment, by looking at only pictures from one angle, I'm only getting part of the story. Without some kind of additional welding, I don't see how that tack weld lasted 10yrs. Since this is a toy hauler, what kind of "toys" are you hauling?

I have only taken an electric golf cart and the previous owner took his Harley....it has never been overloaded.

[savente29]

I sent an email with photos to Robby Olsen at the FR Railto plant. He asked for pictures and "concerns" for his management review process...he might get back to me next week. Keep you all posted...anyone know of someone that has had to sue these companies or did they just let the insurance company handle?

[AquaMan]

Originally Posted by savente29

Both problems occurred on the driver side of the cab....the single cold weld is the very front driver side corner of the hitch pin and the cracked frame is the driver side support beam from hitch pin to vertical support connecting it to the chassis frame.

Can I say which occurred first...not really but a logical guess is the negligent single weld occurred first which put additional stress (no longer distributing the stress across both 2 support beams) on the driver side beam which caused it to fail and was revealed throught the stress cracked in the fiberglass...bad welder at Lippert, negligent QC at Lippert and grossly negligent QC at Forest River.

I've seen pics on this forum were people removed the under skin and added piece of angle iron and welded over the front corners of the hitch pin area to reinforce it...I'm guessing that would have saved me the cracked frame.

One of the first things that comes to mind is, why did it take so long for that weld to break? Can you see the opposite side of that beam with the broken weld? To me, it looks like that weld wouldn't have held to pull it off the assembly line. Although, one would think that the weld would have caused the frame to crack, I'm leaning towards just the opposite. Had the weld at the kingpin crossmember given up first, the stress would have been put on the other crossmember welds. With the frame cracking first, it would have put a twist on the kingpin crossmembers and would have caused the weakest weld to break. I'm still just theorizing here and this is by no means an accurate assumption, since I've only seen pictures and I'm visualizing what you are telling me about locations. I hope you find satisfaction.