365SAQ Frame Support Bent and Broken - Potentially Related to 6k Axles

[cfisher523]

Ok... so earlier this year I started this thread:
http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...ain-76938.html

Feel free to read the thread, but in summary I had a 6k axle bend on a trailer with a dry delivery weight of 12750 before the dealer added 2nd AC and awning toppers, and before any water; leaving about 610# cargo. Many phone calls and a deal was agreed to leading me to a shiny new set of 7k axles and all the accessories.

Fast forward to today..... I pulled my underbelly down to troubleshoot a hydraulic issue and found a cross member / support (the one over the axles) bent and broken; not a busted weld, actual snapped round bar. I'm posting pictures so you can see what I saw. Three pics of the bad and one pic of a good one for reference. I believe this 'damage' is from the extra stress the 6k axles put on the frame and demonstrates just how much twist and force transfers to the frame at the axles when the wrong ones are installed.

If you've had axle issues corrected check your frame. If you're having axle issues and looking for extra leverage to aide FR in doing the right thing and fixing your rig, check your frame and snap some pics.

Now I'm off to find someone with the tools and skills to correct this and maybe use some heavier materials in the process. Happy trails all....

[Jscribner]

I found some of the underbelly coming down on our 2012 Silverback 35QB4 today so I pulled it down some more just in front of the axle. I too found the cross member broken badly. So I pulled the panel behind the axle and that cross member was also broken the same as yours. I as well will be looking for repairs that are stronger than these weak factory welds. Not impressed at all lipert should not be allowed to put anything on the road. The pictures don't show it but the lower cross bar front and rear are broken away from the frame on both sides just floating in there.
I do believe this is caused by turning stress and from over the road stress. Our camper has had side wall repairs at the factory that included frame camber adjustments by lipert. I will be sending them pictures.
Good luck with yours Josh

[cfisher523]

Well things went from bad to worse.... after reading Josh's post above I decided to pull the rest of the underbelly down to take a look and the frame support just behind the axles... well that support made the one in front of the axles (my original post) look like they were just cherry.....

The attached pictures show the rear cross member bent, twisted, broken, and just plain failed. I sent the pics to Forest River and to the NHTSA. I don't even know what to do at this point. Two of the primary cross members, the ones closest to the axles, have failed. I can get someone to cut them out and weld them back in, but since they aren't engineers is that really the right thing to do?? I really believe that all this is due to the undersized axles originally installed on the trailer.

[Jscribner]

That is like ours is both of the lower cross members near the axles broken at the welds. You could pull them out nothing is left attached to them. I have been searching and this is pretty common, I even found a PDF from lippert on making the repair.
This is very poor workmanship starting with the engineer right to the welder that didn't use enough heat to penetrant the steel. This kind of thing would never happen in the auto industry the government would be all over it. The rv business better clean up there act before they have government oversight because then no one will be able to afford to buy one of these things.
Well I plan to make sure Cedar Creek and Lippert know about this but expect they won't care and then fix it myself. I wish you luck cfisher523

[Jscribner]

Here is the Lippert document I found. I think this should work.

.http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs...1V486-1111.pdf

[DDC]

You did the right thing reporting this to the NHTSA, they have the power to act on this sad excuse as a safe product, we see lots of people complaining but they are reluctant to complain to the proper authority good luck with getting it all fixed up, hope they do the right thing and fix it properly.

[cfisher523]

I'm not holding my breath waiting for FR or Lippert to fix it. It was quite a fight to get my axles replaced, I'm betting this is next to impossible. I've decided I'm at a crossroads. Either pull out everything thats broken and weld in new support using heavier materials, or just tack everything back in and trade in the unit on something other than a FR product. I love this trailer, have since I bought it, but I just don't trust it. I also worry that if I weld in heavier support materials that the stress causing the damage will just be pushed somewhere else and I'll start experience a new problem. I just don't see any good options.

[Jscribner]

I wish you luck if you decide to try another brand. I have been searching and Lippert builds the frames for anything that fits my needs. If you no of one that doesn't have a Lippert frame please let me know. It appears to me they own 90% of the market.

[cfisher523]

I don't know if it will make a difference or not, but I was just contacted by the NHTSA investigator reviewing my report and he has a meeting scheduled later this week with FR to discuss. If anyone else has experienced this or similar issues, now would be a great time to report.

[cfisher523]

So, I did receive a call from the FR Government Safety Compliance Manager today. He received a call from the NHTSA investigator with whom I've been speaking. We spoke for about a half an hour and he assured me that FR would be working with Lippert to determine the correct path of resolution. I did find it quite concerning that despite the fact that I had notified the FR Customer Service Rep about the problem, the FR Safety Compliance Rep told me that the first he heard of the situation was when the NHTSA called him; so there is a breakdown in FR with the Customer Service folks communicating with the Safety Compliance folks. I've sent over two dozen pictures, at Lippert's request, of my frame and Lippert seems to be on top of determining how they're going to repair the damage. FR asked me to give them a couple days to work out the logistics of a fix.

I don't know if I would have received help without the NHTSA's involvement, but I know it didn't hurt and now my issue is on record for reference in the event anyone else experiences similar problems.

Updates to follow......

[Faulk222]

2013 365saq here rear axle is bent and forest river is ignoring my emails I have 1000KM left to go home and inside of the tires are wearing excessively it seems to me that FR won't be happy until they kill someone

My issues started with noticing that the braking was not good and doing a bit of searching on the forums here and by God I am not alone

I was at my dealer this morning and they took pictures to send to forest river them self (which I have done and been ignored) funny thing is the dealer said they will most likely get the same treatment

I looked around the parking lot and ALL of there new models have 8 lug 7000 LBS axles in them

Biggest issue I have is I am on Canada and transport Canada is a lot slower then NTSB on the US

It is pretty sad when you spend that kind of money and your trailer is only good for 5000KM then you need to park it

[golfmedik]

Send Transport Canada the links to the threads, stories and emails from here in the states. They may be slower to respond, but once they see that there definitely is a problem, maybe they will react at a more acceptable pace. Good luck and please keep us informed.

[Faulk222]

Got approved today for 7000# axles just need to check the frame

Hopefully frame is ok

[cfisher523]

Originally Posted by Faulk222

Got approved today for 7000# axles just need to check the frame

Hopefully frame is ok

Check the cross-members just in front of and just behind the axles..... It's a bit tough to inspect without dropping the underbelly, but if you or someone you know has a small space inspection camera that would get the job done. Check for bends and slipped welds and check the round bar laticing for broken bars.

Let us know what you find....

[Faulk222]

what kind of mileage do you guys have on your units when finding the cross-members bent? I am at about 5200 Miles now got my trailer back in my seasonal park now and am waiting for the axles to arrive before I pull down the underbelly

got a bore camera that I may try to get in there this weekend to have a look

[cfisher523]

So.... for those of you following along. I've been in ongoing discussion with Lippert and FR to resolve this issue. I received a call today from Lippert and they are sending a technician / welder to my house in NJ from their facility in Indiana. Not only did the CSR at Lippert call me, but the technician himself called to explain the work he'll be performing. The current plan is to remove the existing damaged cross-members (angle iron and round bar latticing) and replace with new cross-members made with 2x2 steel tubing. Additionally, they plan to add some cross-members (of the 2x2 variety) to reinforce other areas of the frame.

The new cross-members sound significantly heavier (stronger) than the old ones. I'll post pics before closing up the underbelly. Big thanks to Lippert for standing behind this and sending someone half way across the country to ensure it gets fixed right.

[cfisher523]

Nothing to exciting yet, but as promised a technician from Lippert did show up at my house this morning and begin to weld in new cross-members and inspect and repair any additional issues that I may not have seen. Full report to follow once its done.... I did pick up some interesting information though... Mind you this is not a placement of blame to any business or entity, just a statement of fact that I picked up today....

Often times when a frame is damaged in a manner such as this one it occurs because of an inability to flex. Axles generally have a fair amount of flex in them, that's how they're designed. When axles are overloaded though they lose their ability to flex. The force being exerted by hard turns such as sharp driveway exits or sharp angles into campsites must be absorbed somewhere though. When an axle can no longer flex it is common for the frame to begin to flex more than it was designed to do and when the frame flexes the weaker components (cross-members v. I-Beams) will only flex so many times before they break - think about bending a wire coat hanger back and forth. In a properly configured trailer all of these components give a little, but when any one of those components is unable to flex as required the extra stress breaks things.

That was a lesson I learned this morning, speaking in completely generalized terms. More specifically though I was reassured that in my current configuration (7k axles) that I should have no further frame / tow-ability issues once my repairs are complete.

Pics of the repairs to follow once complete. For now, proof that Lippert cares enough about their products to send someone from Indiana to New Jersey to personally address the problems. Problems I still believe were the results of decisions made by FR, yet Lippert is still taking on the responsibility of making it right.

[TURBS]

I'm not engineer, but this logic seems flawed to me.

In my mind heavier "stiffer" axles would cause more issues then lighter more flexible axles.

The frame flex imo is going to flex or not flex about the same regardless of 6k or 7k axles.




TURBS
08 duramax tuned n modded
2011 32bhok Sabre
2015 camping "27 nights"

[cfisher523]

Originally Posted by TURBS

I'm not engineer, but this logic seems flawed to me.

In my mind heavier "stiffer" axles would cause more issues then lighter more flexible axles.

The frame flex imo is going to flex or not flex about the same regardless of 6k or 7k axles.

I'm not an engineer either, but that's the explanation I was given. Over time the inability of the axles to flex (as they were maxed out) led to the bent axle and busted up frame; as it was explained to me. I'm just a cyber security guy though so, at least for now, I'm going to defer to that which was explained to me by a man that repairs these units for a living....

[cfisher523]

So the fix is done and the Lippert Tech has packed up and started the long drive back to Indiana. As it's damn hot right now and due to that and the vast amounts of wet paint under the trailer I only have few pics, but the final repair is as follows:

(1) Remove, straighten, and reinstall the existing cross-members that were damaged.

(2) Add three [3] cross-members made from 2x2 steel box tubing. Welded to the lower part of the I-Beam and gusseted with 8x8x.25 steel.
{1 representative pic}

(3) Add 2x2 steel box tubing cross-bar between middle spring hangers. This will remain exposed, below the underbelly.
{1 representative pic}

(4) Paint everything to deter rust

All I need to do now is reinstall the underbelly, go camping, and see how it holds up this time around..... we'll call this 'Take 3'....