Tires question

[rockfordroo]

Originally Posted by palmetto rogue

x2 nmwildcat. Tireman "root cause analysis" is really impracticle when you are sitting on the side of the highway. Likewise asking 5 whys when you need to get back on the road. I have posted before with your responses and respect your experience but when I have had two sets of china bombs fail in 3 years it starts to become a trend. I have always maintained pressure, stored properly and avoided road hazard as much as possible and not operated above or near load limits and still had on the first set of tires a blowout on front left and later rear right. A year later on marathons a separation detection by tpms before failure. How can I not conclude tire quality, design or application as being a "root cause".

You CAN conclude these as being root causes (of which there are more than just the 3 you've listed). But you CAN'T conclude it's because it was made in China, which is what people want to "conclude." That's not a root cause.

[Wobbles]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

.

Do not lose the faith brother. I have been reading so much static that I have been forced to re-read and re-read the tire failure posts.

My take on this whole thing is to be watching my tire inflation, inspect the tires for damage/deformities, and keep my speed within tolerances.

If anyone has magic that can keep me from having to do these chores, the check is in the mail.

[palmetto rogue]

rockfordoo If I had a complete data set of failure and source of manufacture and performed an R squared analysis I suspect there would be a very high coef or correlation to china vs other locations. This analysis would not be impacted by population of the data.

[rockfordroo]

Originally Posted by palmetto rogue

rockfordoo If I had a complete data set of failure and source of manufacture and performed an R squared analysis I suspect there would be a very high coef or correlation to china vs other locations. This analysis would not be impacted by population of the data.

As stated above: Correlation does NOT equal causation!!!!

[Lousuz]

As a solo female, brand new trailer owner (2016 Microlite BHS25), I wanted to be extra safe. I had NO experience hauling a trailer. I did my homework, took a step by step approach to gain experience and knowledge. The dealer(Campbell RV Sarasota), my garage maintenance folks and so many others were absolutely amazing in helping me. I love my Flagstaff trailer, its design, its smooth ride, everything about it. Since March, I've traveled about 7000 miles.

Before hitting the road, I had this nagging concern about the new tires that came with my new trailer. I decided to have them checked out and to learn everything I could. The first clue was asking myself what if I had a flat tire and wanted to replace with another one same brand, same size. Of course I also worried about a blowout and the huge damage these can cause. An extensive internet search led me nowhere. Brand/Make. So I bit the bullet and bought 4 new tires. Chose Hercules Cooper tires. Night and day difference in the ride and the tread. As we changed the tires, I asked tons of questions to educate myself and it's in that process that we saw a big bubble on the factory installed tires that went with my trailer. This was a serious blowout waiting to happen. I've wanted to write to the manufacturer, to express how happy I am with my trailer but to urge them to not skimp on tires. I would gladly have paid more to avoid the added stress of knowing I had cheap tires on my new trailer. I'm sure many others would feel as I do. Trailer travel is more than design and cosmetics. It's safety first.

[NMWildcat]

Originally Posted by Lousuz

As we changed the tires, I asked tons of questions to educate myself and it's in that process that we saw a big bubble on the factory installed tires that went with my trailer. It's safety first.

Congrats on the new trailer AND for being such a pro-active informed owner! We (wife and I) are very impressed with your story and are forwarding it to several single friends of ours (men and women) who want an RV of their own but just need a little push to brave the jump.

Glad you caught that tire before it caused serious damage. You have good instincts!

Thanks for your post and welcome to the forum and to RVing!

[Lousuz]

Thank you Scott and Liz - NM Wildcat. I really appreciate the kudos. Indeed this was a huge leap of faith for one not too mechanically inclined. Today I am proof positive that if we love something enough and allow ourselves to go beyond the dream and turn it into reality, we can learn just about anything. By taking a deliberate approach and leaning on others for their help and advice. The camping and park community are amazingly helpful as is this group. My last message is how much I appreciated "failing" and "running into problems". Every time I did I learned tons. Suzanne

[f5moab]

Originally Posted by Blackhat6mike

No, not ALL ST tires are made in China. My Maxxis M8008 ST 225/70/15 are made in Thailand per the stamp on the sidewall. Perhaps the Moab tire retailer should be made aware of this.

Maybe, or maybe not, the next time I'm in Moab, I'll stop by and note that to him.

As for Maxxis tires, they are manufactered by Cheng Shin Rubber Industry Co. of China with plants in Thailand, and China, and many other countries, so I guess I can safely assume many are made in China.

I was just being sarcastic (but not using the sarcasm font) that it seems like many (heck a majority) of the posts on this site in regard to tires have a mention of "China Bombs." So I'll rephrase that and say from research and talking with tire dealers (owners, not necessarily salesman) the greater majority of ST tires are manufactured in China.

My Goodyear Marathons were, and they could not hold up to extremely rough roads, so I pulled them after a few flats and replaced them with Yokohama tires. However, considering the roads they were on when they failed (at very low speeds), I would not consider them China Bombs. Don't believe there are many ST tires (except for an off-road ST tire made by Hercules) that can take the punishment of sharp rocks, sharp ledges, etc.

As for China Bombs, I can related to an American Bomb or two I have had over the years.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by Lousuz

As a solo female, brand new trailer owner (2016 Microlite BHS25), I wanted to be extra safe. I had NO experience hauling a trailer. I did my homework, took a step by step approach to gain experience and knowledge. The dealer(Campbell RV Sarasota), my garage maintenance folks and so many others were absolutely amazing in helping me. I love my Flagstaff trailer, its design, its smooth ride, everything about it. Since March, I've traveled about 7000 miles.

Before hitting the road, I had this nagging concern about the new tires that came with my new trailer. I decided to have them checked out and to learn everything I could. The first clue was asking myself what if I had a flat tire and wanted to replace with another one same brand, same size. Of course I also worried about a blowout and the huge damage these can cause. An extensive internet search led me nowhere. Brand/Make. So I bit the bullet and bought 4 new tires. Chose Hercules Cooper tires. Night and day difference in the ride and the tread. As we changed the tires, I asked tons of questions to educate myself and it's in that process that we saw a big bubble on the factory installed tires that went with my trailer. This was a serious blowout waiting to happen. I've wanted to write to the manufacturer, to express how happy I am with my trailer but to urge them to not skimp on tires. I would gladly have paid more to avoid the added stress of knowing I had cheap tires on my new trailer. I'm sure many others would feel as I do. Trailer travel is more than design and cosmetics. It's safety first.

So what was the conclusion on why the OE tire had the "big bubble". Road hazard? Run low damage? curbing? pot hole impact? What ddi you see on the inside of the tire?
If you felt it was the tire's fault did you file a complaint with NHTSA?

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by f5moab

Maybe, or maybe not, the next time I'm in Moab, I'll stop by and note that to him.

As for Maxxis tires, they are manufactered by Cheng Shin Rubber Industry Co. of China with plants in Thailand, and China, and many other countries, so I guess I can safely assume many are made in China.

I was just being sarcastic (but not using the sarcasm font) that it seems like many (heck a majority) of the posts on this site in regard to tires have a mention of "China Bombs." So I'll rephrase that and say from research and talking with tire dealers (owners, not necessarily salesman) the greater majority of ST tires are manufactured in China.

My Goodyear Marathons were, and they could not hold up to extremely rough roads, so I pulled them after a few flats and replaced them with Yokohama tires. However, considering the roads they were on when they failed (at very low speeds), I would not consider them China Bombs. Don't believe there are many ST tires (except for an off-road ST tire made by Hercules) that can take the punishment of sharp rocks, sharp ledges, etc.

As for China Bombs, I can related to an American Bomb or two I have had over the years.

It certainly would help if people could post the DOT serial of their "China Bomb" tires. With that information we could narrow down the location that is causing the problem.

As ref, the Ford Explorer tire problem was traced to one plant that made tires that failed when they were run with 17 psi on the Explorer but not when tires from that plant were on Toyota pickups. So sometimes it is the state where the plant is that makes the tires in combination with the city where the vehicle is made.

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by palmetto rogue

rockfordoo If I had a complete data set of failure and source of manufacture and performed an R squared analysis I suspect there would be a very high coef or correlation to china vs other locations. This analysis would not be impacted by population of the data.

NHTSA tries to do such data analysis but since only a very small portion of RV owners care enough to file complaints that include tire DOT serial numbers even NHTSA can't assemble enough data to find a trend.

[325BH]

Originally Posted by rockfordroo

You CAN conclude these as being root causes (of which there are more than just the 3 you've listed). But you CAN'T conclude it's because it was made in China, which is what people want to "conclude." That's not a root cause.

It doesn't take rocket science to figure out the factory ST tires that come with these trailers are junk. If you don't realize it, you aren't paying attention.

"China" is definitely fashionable to pick on -- and the location a tire is made doesn't itself mean much, however there does seem to be a common theme on these tires.




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[windsurfdog]

The term "China Bomb" infers 2 things...the tire was made in China and it explodes. With this in mind, I'd be interested to see just how many of these failures would have been simply that...failures...instead of "bombs" had people invested in a TPMS.

And I'd also be interested to know how many trailers ran their OEM tires (another term for "China bombs" for those who care) for years without incident. I have about 2000 miles on my OEM's. I plan to continue to maintain/inspect them properly, keep them covered when parked, keep my TPMS maintained/used and keep my speed at or under 65 mph. After 4 years, I'll change them out...probably for Maxxis or Sailuns or Goodyears...but definitely ST tires.

Oh, and I'll be weighing my rig on Cat scales on my next trip scheduled in October and will make adjustments if needed.

So, as with other tired/overused/misguided labels that people in our society use, please carry on if you must...it's only a reflection after all...

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by 325BH

It doesn't take rocket science to figure out the factory ST tires that come with these trailers are junk. If you don't realize it, you aren't paying attention.

"China" is definitely fashionable to pick on -- and the location a tire is made doesn't itself mean much, however there does seem to be a common theme on these tires.
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Quality of tires is kind of difficult to determine given that
1. RV mfg select smallest tire that will meet requirements
2. Over half RVs have one or more tires in overload.
3. Many trailer owners operate in excess of tire max speed rating
4. Few owners that have problems bother to file complaints with NHTSA so meaningful data is impossible to get.

Since probably 90% of trailer tires come from China then one shoudl expect 90 % of tire failure reports would be on tires made in China. I could just as easily claim that most RVs have poor quality issues because they are made in Indiana.

[lbrjet]

You have no data to support your #2 statement. That is a ridiculous thing to say.


2010 F250 5.4L 3.73
2011 Flagstaff 831FKBSS
Equal-i-zer 4pt 12K

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by lbrjet

You have no data to support your #2 statement. That is a ridiculous thing to say.
2010 F250 5.4L 3.73
2011 Flagstaff 831FKBSS
Equal-i-zer 4pt 12K

Sorry but there is data.
RV Safety Education Foundation for the past 20 years has accumulated data from over 35,000 units

In the seminars they give at large rallies across America they presents the facts that show " over 50% of existing RVs exceed at least one safety rating". This quote comes from the above web page. In their seminars this year we see figures such as 57% so the facts clearly support my statement of "over half"

The details from their presentations separates down Motorhomes, Trailers and tow vehicles but shows that both MH and TT have over 50% with an overload situation.
The current data shows that over 50% of RVs have one or more tire and or axle in an overload situation.
Remember this is on units where people know they will have their inflation checked. Tires are cool and these people care enough to pay for the service of getting their units weighed by tire position.

Fact: Very few RVs have axle loads evenly distributed side to side 50/50. Some large RV have discovered 1,000# unbalance.

RVSEF is a recognized 501 (c) 3 organization. Has sponsorship from Rubber Manufacturers Association, Michelin, TireMinder, Bilstein, Bridgestone, Freightliner, Dicor, Hayes brakes, Spartain, Newmar, GEICO, Dexter Axles, Jayco, Thor among others. RVSEF is the only trusted safety and weighing organization fully endorsed by RVIA and RVDA.

[crookedread]

I assume that the #1,000 overload is based on a static measurement. I have always wondered what that weight would be in one of the sharp corners on the way to the coast! Just guessing that could be 2 or 3 thousand over in that situation.


Crookedread
2016 Duramax
2011 Stealth 2312

[palmetto rogue]

Tireman this seems to me to be a big picture economics issue. Is it true that the auto and truck industry does not experience the failure rate or short life that the ST tires experience? If true then the RV tire industry and rv chassis mfgs apparently are not willing to manufacture to the same expectations of the auto industry leading to all the woes that we experience. Look in any parking lot and many of the cars made before 2007 when tp monitors were required are running on poorly inflated tires. My guess is that these do not fail at the same rate as ST tires. I also have an engineering/QA background and have abused tires for 50 years in racing, towing and with heavy Ag equipment and never seen the failure issues with ST tires. I do properly maintain and store my tires and have had two ST sets fail (2 tires on 1 and 1 tire on the second) in 3 years. Anecdotally I also travel enough to see too many rv trailers on the side of the road with blowouts. If not for economics why would ST tires only be made to be rated at 65 mph when we live in a faster world? I try to stay under this for fuel economy but find myself at higher speeds frequently. Impossible to practically operate within rated limits. Is this whole issue because rv mfgs do not want to pass on the cost of safe tires? I understand Motorhome tire life is 5 to 7 years and tractor trailer operators get hundreds of thousands of miles on tires. ST tires 2 years? Please explain.

[NMWildcat]

Originally Posted by Tireman9

NHTSA tries to do such data analysis but since only a very small portion of RV owners care enough to file complaints that include tire DOT serial numbers even NHTSA can't assemble enough data to find a trend.

I get tired of hearing that most ST tire problems are caused by the RV owner. I simply don't believe it based on my own experience. NHTSA; never heard of them, much less knew I could file a complaint. So I asked my tire dealer. She said that they do turn in reports on tire problems themselves and/or turn the tires over to their tire reps for analysis. That went for tires they sold or other brands they replaced. So I don't believe the argument that NHTSA doesn't have enough data to see a trend for ST China bombs. Doesn't make sense if tire dealers are turning in info to them to protect their sales and customers.

[palmetto rogue]

Followup. I bought my 5th wheel to have fun and travel - not to have to research or report tire failure analysis or root cause or replacement equivalents or provide maintenance exceeding that of a 24/7 manufacturing plant. This whole tire and axle business should be engineered into a rolling system that is a non issue and requires little maintenance. Too many of it's customers are seniors that do not want to or know how to mess with this.