Quality issues..... Long

[jeepman71]

I really hesitated in posting this thread. I do believe Rockwood has a nice and useable product. With that being said I am having a tough time keeping a positive attitude. I have a list of issues and some history with my unit. These are the things I have had to bring to the dealership's attention since I purchase the unit last August 3rd.

Last fall the trailer went into the dealership for the following issues.
1. Slide floor on curb side felt weak.
Trailer was sent back to Indiana for repair. Still seems to set at a noticeable slant, have noted this to the dealer as late as July 9, 2013. When the trailer was transported to Indiana and back the universal lock out for the hitch had been removed and was missing, this was corrected by the dealer before it was removed from the lot. The pigtail was pulled loose from the connection box under pin box. This was stuck back in but not properly addressed by the dealer before it left the lot.
2. Water leaking from fresh water tank.
Dealer found frame work bent and was to be repaired in Indiana. No further problems have been detected.
3. Grey water holding tank monitor was incorrect.
Dealer fixed, no further problems detected.
4. Genesis 3 Did not work in video mode.
Dealer fixed, no further problems detected.
5. Skylight recall issued.
Replace by dealer when unit was returned from Indiana in January. There seemed to be a prolonged problem of moisture in skylight after new unit was installed. New skylight was sent by Forrest River but never installed. Problem seems to be gone with no further work from dealer or Forrest River.

A few other minor problems were addressed at this time.

Issues addressed since the trailer was returned last winter.
1. Center Island has been loose since date of purchase. Anchored to the floor using L straps on interior of cabinet.
2. Floor in center of living space on main level has a fair amount of flex and there is some popping and cracking near island and entry when stepped on. Floor on curb side has notable sag towards the wall; it drops 3/8” in a six inch span from the wall toward the center of the floor. Notified dealer July 9 and also expressed further concern with the slant in curb side slide. Nothing has been addressed to date.
3. Suspension seems to be drooping on both sides of trailer. There are signs of tires rubbing under side of trailer. Notified dealer of this problem July 26, 2013. He took pictures of the rubber pushing out of the ends of the axle tubes. This trailer has always been run loaded very lightly. Seldom has full load of water. Nothing has been addressed to date.
4. Notified dealer of brake failure on July 29, 2013. Problem has proven to be a bad brake magnet on curb side back wheel. Nothing has been addressed to date.
5. Water leaking in street side emergency window and center stationary window in the back of trailer. Noted later in the day on August 3, 2013, called dealer as soon as they opened today to have it noted before warranty was past.

I have left a message with Kevin Myers as well as Sheila at Forrest River 08/05/2013.

I am not whining or complaining. I will not be unhappy with the rig once these issues are resolved. To date the service has been good. But I have to admit it is getting tough not getting negetive about this rig. I don't think these are picky little issues I am dealing with.

[tomjsas]

Wow...sorry to hear about your issues. Hopefully they will get them fixed to your satisfaction. I have to say - knock on wood - I've not experienced any major issues on mine and the ones that I have, like sheared landing gear bolt were more user error (taking gear up too far) than factory. Although we have have only been out 4 times with the new camper for a total of about 400 miles thus far.

[jeepman71]

Thanks for the reply Tomjsas. I am deffinitley not going to bash Forrest River or knock the product. They are in the business to make money and save wherever they can. I bought this rig with the knowledge that they all have issues. I do believe more come off the line with no problems that with problems. I just got lucky!

I spoke with Sheila at FR this morning. Again I am impressed with the way they handle customers. We don't always get everything the way we want but I do feel they try to step up to the plate and take care of things. All these issues were noted and are in the process of being handled. I will bide my time and hope that none of my camping plans are interfered with and just maybe if it does have to go back to Indiana I will take it myself this time. I am always ready for a road trip.

[Great Horned Owl]

The problem with the RV industry is that there are too many manufacturers making entirely too many different models. The result, is that there are not enough units of any single model being produced. These things are essentially "hand crafted." Under these conditions, it is virtually impossible to establish any meaningful quality assurance procedures.

Having worked many years as a Director of Quality Assurance in the medical device industry, I have some knowledge of the field. Amongst quality professionals, Quality in a product is not judged as good or bad. Rather, quality is judged as degree of conformance to specifications.

Does anybody think that you can find a single RV manufacturer who has written specifications for such mundane processes as how to hang the kitchen cabinets, or how to run the wires from the converter to the batteries. The crafters (I hesitate to call them assemblers) can't comply with the specifications, because there are no specifications.

I don't quite understand why this situation persists. I have no doubt that GM, Ford, and Toyota each produce more vehicles per year that the entire RV industry. Despite this, alt three of them put together probably don't offer as many models as does Forest River (including subsidiaries).

I understand that RVs are more complex than autos, and that more different styles, floor plans, options, price ranges, etc. are inevitable. However, is there any valid reason for Forest River to continue producing essentially the same unit under two or three or four different names?

One would anticipate that as the industry matures, there would be a shake out. Oddly, any such shake out is taking far longer than what should be expected.

The bottom line is that we should not be surprised by the absolute lack of any quality control. I'm still trying to figure out how Puma (one of Forest River's Palomino brands) managed to get my fresh water tank so full of sawdust, that it took 3 days to drain when the valve was opened.

Joel

[jeepman71]

Very well put Joel. With the lack of quality control I think the real story is in how well the company and dealerships take care of the issues that do arrise.

One company on the motorized side of RVs that I was always impressed with but could not afford was Tiffin.

So far with what I have seen from friends and my own experience FR does step up to the plate and I am hopeful that they continue to do so.

[albuilder]

Wow! I have the same 5er so far no problems nock on wood. But I will be looking. Sorry for your problems. Good luck.

[rambilt]

I hope you get all the issues taken cared of... I have the same year model hopefully mine do not have the same issues you are having.

[Mac rv]

Just to let you know that my new 2013 windjammer 3008w has been at the dealer for over 50 days for rather minor repairs. The front counter top started to separate. The radio would not work on AM and a few other very minor repairs. The dealer elected to replace the entire counter top because the particle board counter top had been damaged. It took a month to get the new top from Forrestriver. In the process of re and re the moulding next to the fridge was damaged and needed to be replace hence 3 more weeks so far waiting to get an other moulding from the factory. Meanwhile the factory warranty is running out. We have not been able to use our new trailer for most of the summer. I recently made a trip to the dealer to check things out. My trailer is stored in a locked compound. In the middle of no where. The battery was absolutely flat. Even a deep discharged battery can be damaged by a long period of deep discharge. The dealership and the factory do not seem to communicate very well and I do not know when I will get my tt back. Hopefully before winter. We love the trailer but reserve judgement on the dealer and especially Forrestriver. Customer service in my case are dirty words at Forrestriver. Just to let you know.

[wrapperman]

Until competition sets in there will be very little change. Remember the Ford, GM and Chrysler products before the 90's. All junk and high priced items. The Japanese set us straight.

[Great Horned Owl]

Originally Posted by wrapperman

Until competition sets in there will be very little change. Remember the Ford, GM and Chrysler products before the 90's. All junk and high priced items. The Japanese set us straight.

Actually, that is not the whole story. In the early '50s, "made in Japan" was synonymous with "pure junk." They manufactured cart that nobody would buy because they were so bad. Their government decided that something needed to be done.

They located an American quality guru named W. Edwards Deming. He had some great ideas, but nobody in the U.S. was paying any attention to him. They all believed that his methods were too expensive to implement. The Japanese auto makers put Deming's theories into practice, and the results were astounding. Not ony were they producing some of the world's best cars, bur they discovered that rather than being expensive, a well designed quality program actually saved huge amounts of money.

The U.S. auto industry resisted for a few more years, but eventually they began to see the light. It is ironic that Detroit had to "import" an essentially American quality system from Japan.

The real problem with the RV industry is not too little competition. They actually suffer from too much competition. No manufacturer has high enough production rates to be able to emerge from the "hand crafted" production methods that prevail today. See my earlier post in this thread.

Joel

[bob34787]

Originally Posted by Great Horned Owl

Actually, that is not the whole story. In the early '50s, "made in Japan" was synonymous with "pure junk." They manufactured cart that nobody would buy because they were so bad. Their government decided that something needed to be done.

They located an American quality guru named W. Edwards Deming. He had some great ideas, but nobody in the U.S. was paying any attention to him. They all believed that his methods were too expensive to implement. The Japanese auto makers put Deming's theories into practice, and the results were astounding. Not ony were they producing some of the world's best cars, bur they discovered that rather than being expensive, a well designed quality program actually saved huge amounts of money.

The U.S. auto industry resisted for a few more years, but eventually they began to see the light. It is ironic that Detroit had to "import" an essentially American quality system from Japan.

The real problem with the RV industry is not too little competition. They actually suffer from too much competition. No manufacturer has high enough production rates to be able to emerge from the "hand crafted" production methods that prevail today. See my earlier post in this thread.

Joel

beg to differ, my Airstream which was a 2009 had zero issues with it during my ownership, I have yet to own a forest river product that did not have to return to the dealer after each and every use. It could be that Airstream retains its employees long enough to train them properly.

[wrapperman]

Ole "Great Horned Owl" how mighty is your wisdom!
Just a little humor there.
I stand corrected. I may have spoken to hastily. You are right, there are very good RV's made that stand the test of time.
Competition still is good for any industry. Whether a particular industry has any competition or not as long as the company we are talking about has the perception of competition then that industry will keep on making a great product. It is the mindset of the leaders that drive quality. I own a company and quality is an important ingredient of our success. The other ingredients are a fair price and great service.

[jeepman71]

As I stated in my orriginal post. I feel confident that Forrest River will right the wrong. I think there has to be a good combination of dealer investment as well as manufacturer investment. I think the customer service side fails due to lack of dealer investment after the purchase. I do agree that there is a lot of problems considering it is only a year old, and quality control is an issue. We owned a 17 year old class a gasser, a Damon Daybreak. This is the bottom line of a bottom feeder according to the good people over on another rv forum. We had no issues with this vehicle. When we decided to buy new we went in with our eyes wide open because so many friends and freinds of friends had so many problems. Our hope was to pick a proven dealership that would go to bat if we did have problems. I hope I am not proven a fool, I can't afford another rv and couldn't enjoy this one with the problems it has. Once the problems are corrected we are going to enjoy this one for 17 years.

[Mike Tav]

Regret to say that my 2013 8289 WS is also plagued with issues. AC had to be replaced , dinette slide leaks, skylight, kitchen table, bedroom door, drawer slides broken, stove top hinges broken, smoke detector battery dead, outside flood lights not working, broken cabinet hinges, marginal ( at best ) chinese tires, . ON the bright side trailer tows great, very comfortable to live in and dealer has been terrific fixing issues. Hope to some day park in storage area and not at dealer when we are not using.

[Great Horned Owl]

It is certainly possible to produce a defect free RV without a real quality system I have lived in my Puma for 13 weeks over the last year, and I haven't had to take it back to the dealer at all. I was lucky. The problem is that the next similar unit they produced could just as well have been loaded with defects.

Yes, competition is good, but we have a case of too much of a good thing. As long as we have 200 different brands (a pure guess) and 2000 different models (another guess) the production quantities will never be great enough to enable the manufacturers to implement a real quality system.

Joel

[B and B]

Originally Posted by Mike Tav

Regret to say that my 2013 8289 WS is also plagued with issues. AC had to be replaced , dinette slide leaks, skylight, kitchen table, bedroom door, drawer slides broken, stove top hinges broken, smoke detector battery dead, outside flood lights not working, broken cabinet hinges, marginal ( at best ) chinese tires, . ON the bright side trailer tows great, very comfortable to live in and dealer has been terrific fixing issues. Hope to some day park in storage area and not at dealer when we are not using.

Did you blow tires or did they just fail?

B

[Platokidd]

This is the best the rv industry can do.... Lack of quality,shoddy workmanship rushed to the dealer to charge BIG $$$$. I had a new 2013 and now 2014 same story. They both spent and spend more time at my dealer then camping in or sitting in my drive way!
The rv industry has a long long way to go to reach "quality". No excuses it is what it is.
low quality , lack of pride in workmanship and the qc let be honest it sucks! If its broke dont put it in / if it fit dont break it trying. No they install it anyway.
I would expect that quality from China, but they couldnt do much worst. Oh Im sure the management cares but how about the worker on the floor?
Yep Im pissed 40k and the quality poor at best. I talk to so many people and its the same story. Once in a while someone no has problems and thats great or maybe the dont look to close......
That said we love our lacrosse!

[rambilt]

Originally Posted by B and B

Did you blow tires or did they just fail?

B

I think he just didn't like the Chinese made tires. I have the same type of tires. I'm thinking of replacing them but not too sure of what to replace them with.

[rlocicero]

We own a Flagstaff 829Fkss and love it. Quality ranks right up there with our 2000 Sunline and 1995 prowler, both were problem free. The only issue we had with the Flagstaff was some soft spots in the floor. FR was purchasing floors from an outside supplier at the time and was experiencing some delamination problems. They solved this problem by building their own assembly plant on site to control quality. FR brought my unit back to Indiana and installed a new floor, problem solved. While it was there, they went over the whole trailer and repaired a few things that I did not even mention. Broken fire extinguisher bracket (we caught it with the chair), the stove vent (I forgot to latch it and lost the flapper), put down new carpeting, replaced a decal outside that had a wrinkle in it and completely resealed the exterior. I do have to admit that I was not overly happy with the Carlisle tires that came with it but this was also a problem on my Sunline and my Holiday Rambler. After 2+ years you could see evidence of heat checking on all 4 tires. Carlisle would have nothing to do with warranty so I went to a local tire supplier here in Rochester, NY and upgraded from load range "C" to "E". More capacity, less heat issues. In the future, I will not even take delivery of a unit with Carlisles on it. If you question FR quality control, you should tour the Flagstaff, Rockwell Super lite/signature ultralite plant. It is a great tour.

[Mike Tav]

B --

Had 1 tire with the tread separating at around 3000 miles ! Working with LionHead to have replaced. Will put on Maxxis Tires load range D before next trip.