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Old 06-04-2015, 08:51 AM   #31
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The season has not started for us and will be delayed several more weeks. Spent the day yesterday and will spend most of today at the Kidney center with the DW.

So to try continue to try to explain what is going on,

Voltage is "pressure" being exerted on the electrons (water in our analogy) at the "beginning" of a pipe. It is the "upper limit" of how high the supplied voltage will be. It can never go higher (unless the pressure being supplied by the campground's transformer or the electric company is increased).

So the voltage "pressure" AT the beginning of the pipe that goes to all the camper pedestals on the circuit you are on will not change until someone connects and creates a PATH back to the Neutral buss at the source.

Now picture the "pipe" as a hose that can be stretched from a larger diameter to a smaller one by pulling on the far end. That results in a "tapered" hose that is larger at the source end and smaller at the most distant end. That taper is the effect of the resistance to water flow in the metal of the wire. The more conductive the wire, the less "taper" you get from the same length. The hotter it is outside the more taper the same material of the same length gets (more resistance for the same wire material as temperature increases). Copper feed wires are not effected near as much as aluminum feed wires (1/2 the resistance per foot as aluminum and much less effected by heat) but Aluminum feed wires are 10 times cheaper than copper and so most campgrounds are wired with it.

Copper-Versus-Aluminum Conductors

Now put taps evenly spaced along that tapered "pipe" The first guy gets the "full system pressure" only reduced by the loss in the larger diameter pipe for the distance from the circuit panel at the campground source to the first site (call it distance X). This site may not see ANY voltage drop ever no matter how many campers are on the parallel wired loop (provided the total amperage consumed by the loop never exceeds the circuit breaker's limit. Say 30 amps times 10 sites (300 Amps Available).

The last site however is a different story. While each site has 30 amps available to them, the pressure (voltage) is being reduced in the long run to the 10th site by 10 times the resistance loss per X feet.

So, say there are only 2 campers 1 on site 1 and 1 in site 10 each (for the sake of argument) pulling 20 amps.

The voltage each will see will be radically different even though there are 260 "extra amps" available. He will see the source voltage dropped by 10 times the line loss seen by camper one.

Much different for camper 10. Now he has low voltage due to line losses that are MUCH worse due to the heat in July (line loss goes up exponentially by temperature). What to do?

An autotransformer will take 1 amp of "available current" and convert it AT camper 10's site and boost the "effective" pressure at site 10 ONLY a few volts. NOTHING changes in voltage or amps available at any of the other sites. It is no different than site 10 turning on another light or turning on the TV in the bedroom as long as site 10 does not exceed the 30 amps available at his site.

Are you suggesting that someone CAN'T use two TVs at the same time because he is somehow "stealing" power from you?

Then the "power grabber" who is cooling his fridge with campground power is "Stealing Power" from me with that logic.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:16 PM   #32
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I wrote Progressive Industries and received this reply:

Dear Sir,
The problem some of our customers have had with after market generators, is because they use an inverter to produce ac voltage. If it produces a pure sine wave, there is no problem. Some generate a modified sine wave, or change to modified sine wave under a heavy load. When this happens, damage can occur to our products and it will not be covered by our warranty. So you must determine what is the method and output of your generator. We do not have enough engineering data to comment on other manufactures products.

Regards, Donald, Customer Support 919 267-6948

Yamaha says their inverter generators provide “clean” power with a “pure sine wave” and they also say their power is cleaner than regular generators. I expected that their generators would meet the requirements to work with Progressive Industries products. However, wmtire has correspondence that says the Yamaha EF2000is doesn’t meet Progressive Industries’ requirements. Since I have a pair of Yamaha EF2000is generators, I think I’ll consider the external model and not use it with the generator.

I can’t see their being an issue with autotransformers “stealing” power from other sites. Anything you turn on in your RV will reduce the voltage in a problem RV park’s power service. It doesn’t matter if you use your coffee pot, lights, A/C or an autotransformer, your using power drops the line voltage. If I thought drawing an extra amp of current using an autotransformer was stealing power, I wouldn’t turn on any appliances, with or without the autotransformer. I don’t think using a autotransformer is wrong.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:38 PM   #33
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Very well explained Herk!
I am debating whether I want to go with a Progressive Industries system or the auto-former. Regardless of which one, I want it mounted inside.
The Hughes auto former has an install kit, but if it states to mount it in a ventilated area. Not sure where I can do that. Also, seems it would be impossible to see the indicating lights unless there was a door or some sort of access to it.
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Old 06-04-2015, 05:25 PM   #34
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Lou. Where did you get that pic?? That's both absolutely hilarious and true. LOL
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Old 06-04-2015, 10:10 PM   #35
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Surge Protection or Electrical system Protection

Herk, hi
First I would like to say that my thoughts and prayers are with your wife in what she is going through. I hope she has a wonderful life to come.
As for the thing we are talking about I hope you didn't think I am down on autotransformers. Far from it.
From your article are you talking about a brownout caused by the campground or power company?
If it the power company then I just don't understand how an AT can solve everyone's brownout. It will solve a few campers though.
I don't like to beat a dead horse so I'll move on and do more studying on other things.
Thanks for all your information.
My wife says I am hard headed, don't know why she says that. Duh
Hope y'all have a great camping season.
Thanks
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Old 06-04-2015, 10:41 PM   #36
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Thank you for your thoughts. Our daughter was finally approved (after two months of tests) as a donor. Unfortunately not a direct match. So we have joined the Kidney pilot program where living donors are matched with living recipients in a cascade of kidneys with Laura getting a matching one at the end.

Our daughter's kidney will directly result in at least one and potentially many folks who are waiting for a kidney to get one in a cascade of matches.

You misunderstood me if you think an auto transformer will solve "everyone's" brownout problem. An AT will only help with YOUR brownout problem; and even then only if the brownout is in the "correctable range". (see attached for the input voltage and the output voltage for the Franks unit (the ONLY two stage boosted AT).

Only if everyone had one, and the brown out was in the correctable range would everyone's problem be "solved".

NOTE: Not all auto transformers are equal! The Franks unit has a MUCH higher Surge protection rating than the Hughes and the only unit with two stages of boost protecting you and boosting long after the single stage Hughes has kicked off line.

The Franks unit will be outputting 108 volts with a line voltage of 91 volts.
Now THAT is something!

I installed mine in a cabinet using the hole from the duplex outlet as a window to see the power/error and boost lights.
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Old 06-04-2015, 11:00 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by howie70 View Post
Very well explained Herk!
I am debating whether I want to go with a Progressive Industries system or the auto-former. Regardless of which one, I want it mounted inside.
The Hughes auto former has an install kit, but if it states to mount it in a ventilated area. Not sure where I can do that. Also, seems it would be impossible to see the indicating lights unless there was a door or some sort of access to it.
Thank you. I was glad to help. Don't waste money on the Hughes install kit. You can buy the pigtails you will need from eBay at a fraction of the kit price. While you are there, buy a pair of volt/amp meters. They are dirt cheap so you can monitor your input amperage and output amperage.

200V 100A DC Digital Voltmeter Ammeter LED Amp Volt Meter Current Shunt | eBay

RV 12" 30Amp Male Pigtail | eBay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/30-Amp-RV-Fe...822eb6&vxp=mtr
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