New 23WS, less than 24 hours later and now this.

[Mr Havercamp]

Yesterday we went through the PDI for the new 23WS and all mostly went well. I brought the unit home and today decided to check everything out again. I pulled all the access panels and removed all the thin flimsy baffles they use to section of the spaces. I was feeling pretty good about it. Then it just went downhill.



I noticed the caulking is split in the caulk joint where the kitchen counter butts into the wall behind the sink. No big deal. It gets a little movement when the main slide is extended and retracted. I didnt see it during the PDI as you can see a split with the slide retracted but not with it extended. Upon getting into it I found the only thing holding the top and cabinet to the wall of the slide is a 3/4" X 3/4" pine ledger stapled to the wall with two screws through it up into the underside of the counter top. Its already pulling loose from the wall. I can fix that easily if I can get myself up in there.

While I was looking at this issue, and had my head up inside the access door below the window behind the sink, I felt something against my leg. The entire bottom seal of the main slide was now laying in the gravel. Add weather strip adhesive to the list..................nice. It just fell off

Then I noticed this. I figure I was about 20 miles and one good pothole from disaster. The tech was going to drain the water tank after the PDI which was about 3/4 full but I told him not to bother. I wanted to see how it towed with water in the tank. The forward support angle actually now has a kink it the vertical leg and is close to total failure. If the tank would of been full it most likely would not have made it the 85 miles from the dealer. Some deflection is to be expected but I am not going to trust it. I understand weight savings but a 2" angle as opposed to the 1 1/2" used would of probably made the difference.

Excuse me for not praising Forest River, Rockwood, or how nice this 23WS is because it is fairly nice, and this particular unit is much better than the last one they sent us. Many thanks to people who commented positivly or offered advice in my past threads about the first unit they sent us. Special thanks to asquared and Herk7769 for the off forum advice. Herk your suggestion about that off line inspection was golden and it seems to have made a huge difference.

Yes its an LCI component supplied by a supplier (LCI), but Rockwood chose to use it, and I think there could be other new ones that are a good bump away from dragging a tank down the road or worse. This tank is ahead of the axles so if it comes loose no telling what its going to tear up. Since I was going to add another tank anyway I now have to build two sets of hangers and I know the ones I fab up will hold the tank. No sense in returning it under warranty only to have the bent one replaced with a new LCI tank support assembly, which is too light for the job. I guess I was not figuring on needing steel and welders less than 24 hours after I backed it into my driveway.







On a side note I was a little surprised to see that Rockwood quit using the junk LCI power jacks and now provides an even cheaper FIC one. Its my own fault for ordering one with the unit anyway...........It chaps my rear end extra special though to know I paid $137.75 for a power jack, or so says the Roo option sheet, for a jack I can buy for $99.

[Mainframe]

Mine is split at the sink when retracted too, I noticed it when I got home, I am still trying to figure out what I am going to do about it, if anything, the sink settles in perfect when you open the slide, i am not too worried about it as long as it does't hurt anything but I guess it really should not be doing that, I also looked behind the sink and found some screws that screw back into the wall, I tried to tighten them and one is stripped so something is going on there, I was thinking it might be a fall dealer repair. (unless I come up with a brainstorm repair which is quite possible)

I was under mine also looking at the tank straps, I saw how they put them on, I remember questioning it then figuring out it was ok, I will check it again soon. I have already towed quite a distance with no trouble, I still would like to put an underbelly under this rig, we will see.

I am not sure about the my jacks or my power tongue jack I will have to look again and see what brand it is, as far as those types of things go in my experience as a tech for years, a lot of those power type accessories actually go bad from not enough use, they seem to need to be used often to keep them going, i.e. power convertible tops, moon roofs and power side doors and end gates. Just my opinion I guess.

I am not up on a lot of the brands etc. on the camper parts,not sure who made my stabilizers.

Actually I am actually new to modding, I had my Kodiak for 6 years and I only did a few mods, rear hitch and some key hooks and towel hooks (all stick on LOL) I plan to do a lot more on the 23ws

I better check my slide seals to see if they are even there, I hope they didn't fall off, I never stuck my head under and looked up there but I will check tomorrow and also see if they are loose.

Good luck, and let me know if you find anything out about the sink pulling away.

[Mr Havercamp]

The counter is a simple one.....its just a weak attachment. I'll post some pics once I secure ours.

I was checking out the bumper attachment today. This frame is different than the last and they attached the bumper tube with reinforcement angles. I'm really considering slapping my 2" receiver bracket on there and calling it done.

I'm not going to trust the tank supports.

Its the D shaped bulb seal that is on the backside of the black alumnium flange on the slide itself, at the bottom

Since you mentioned stabilizers the ones on this Roo appear to be a lot beefier than my Keystone had. Not sure if I like the way they are attached.

Funny you mentioned the screen door. They had the latch side of the frame misaligned and the screen door barely caught the stop. I had to removed the inside trim and take all the screws out and shim it over. The door on this 2017 is a Dexter, that's a new one for me.

[rockfordroo]

I'm wondering if you could just bolt another angle bar under the one that goes across the frame? This would pull up the sagging one and make it much stronger. Wouldn't need to do any welding.

[Mr Havercamp]

Originally Posted by rockfordroo

I'm wondering if you could just bolt another angle bar under the one that goes across the frame? This would pull up the sagging one and make it much stronger. Wouldn't need to do any welding.

The problem is the long angles are lower that the frame rails. I guess I could add angles and bolt them through the existing while still relying on the LCI arrangements attachements. I think Ill just make new. Here is what we made for our last trailer when I added a tank. Its just a matter of using the right size steel for what you want it to carry. I was looking this morning and they punched the oval holes that the cross braces clip into in both legs of the front angle, it kinked right at one of those in the vertical leg.



Compare this to the pics in the first post. This pic is from the first unit they delivered in December before it had seen water.

[dragon-roo]

I have an early 2016 Roo 19...

I am also not impressed with the fresh water mounts. I considered moving my freshwater tank to above the front axle so that tongue weight wouldn't vary so much between a full and empty tank, but one of the bars between the frame rails is welded and the other is held by four 'undersized' screws

The wiring on the underside was a combination of brake, and other, wires hanging down to catch on stuff and the main harness stretched "tight" in one location to save a couple of inches. It also appears that wire ties and clips are too expensive to install as well

We did go on a trip this spring that was only about 35 miles away and had to pull there with a full freshwater tank since the water was still off from the winter season. Everything survived and my brackets are not bent... yet!

I am also not impressed with how the black and gray tanks hang down. On my unit there appears to be a 1.5-2" gap between the tanks and the floor. But that allowed them to just set the tanks on the cross rails instead of shimming them up. My drains also seem to be excessively low. They could have been glued with slightly different angles at the elbows and still have had plenty of slope and given another 2" of clearance.

I hope to some time in the future enclose, or at least partially, the underbelly. Part of my reasoning is plumbing and wiring protection. Part of it is that our favorite camping is in the spring and fall when things are less busy and there are fewer bugs, but can get cold. It also couldn't hurt to smooth some air turbulence, though I doubt I will see an MPG difference.

My dealer did say that they have had fewer issues with the FIC jacks than they have had with the LCI ones, so maybe that will be a plus. I keep mine covered as cheap insurance and took the cover off of the gearbox to make sure it was well packed with lube.

Needless to say... I don't know if I will be happy or sad when the warranty is finally up, as then I won't have reservations about fixing the idiotic things. We looked at other brands and the scary thing is that the Roo was better thought out and engineered than the others and the build quality was far better, as hard as that is to believe! The jayco was bad and I don't know how the starcraft could go more than 20 miles down the road without falling apart!

I really view the modern trailers like a lego or erector set... most of the parts are there for a good start to a final project, but they are definitely not 'complete and assembled' from the factory.

[Grimshaw Traveller]

Having a Prime Time product myself I am beginning to realize that Forest River products are not necessarily quality products. I have a 2014 Crusader 295 RST I purchased in 2013. I have repaired shelving, remounted the microwave (no support under it, just the facia mounting screws), running gear rocker arm and pins and bushings, a wood panel servicing the television cable jacks, the shower skylight inside panel cracked and just lately I observed an outside crack in the sidewall which I have had an estimated repair cost of $5300 CDN. Never will buy a Forest River product again. And to boot it has to be fixed before I can trade it in for 1/2 of what I paid for it.

[CNYCamper]

Mr. H - despite some hiccups with the new RV, looks like you made a good decision re-ordering your 23WS. Certainly is a beautiful looking camper. Hopefully no new problems will crop up.

[bikendan]

Originally Posted by Grimshaw Traveller

Having a Prime Time product myself I am beginning to realize that Forest River products are not necessarily quality products.

Did you not see the previous post where Dragon roo said that his Jayco trailer and his Starcraft trailer were full of problems?

In today's RV industry, quality is a crap shoot.
All brands have quality issues, not just FR.

[Grimshaw Traveller]

Looks to me like maybe the whole industry is building cheap so we can have bigger units and not have the weight. Still frustrating.

[dragon-roo]

We didn't own a Jayco or Starcraft, just looked at them when shopping for what ended up being the Roo. We came from a string of Coleman/Fleetwood popups, and there were some things on the Fleetwood that were higher quality or better engineered than the Roo, for sure. That said the last Fleetwood was 10 years older than the Roo so perhaps things have just gone downhill in that time, but even in it's day the Fleetwood was far superior in quality and engineering compared to most of the other brands of popups... the Rockwoods were second in my opinion. Of course Fleetwood is not in the popup segment anymore. Maybe they decided to exit the segment, instead of drop quality to compete?

Grimshaw... I think you are right. As you go up in weight, and get away from the ultra light and light weight trailers you generally see a bit better construction in my experience looking around at the different models out there. I think you would find your Primetime pretty decent if you looked at some of the stick and tin models.

I think some of it is to maximize profits though also. A stamp formed steel frame is vastly superior to this welded "I" beam junk. That is what is standard in Europe and Australia in the light weights, even for Jayco. Just look at how many of the stick and tin models all of the manufacturers are pushing. I bet they have a much greater margin on those. Why anyone still builds with sticks in something that gets shaken down the road is a mystery to me, though. I will never personally buy an RV that has a wood frame with the better options that are out there today. A used one built with more roadworthy materials is a better deal IMHO.

Once the Mrs. decided on a hybrid, I just looked for the one with the best 'bones' that fit our needs. While she was looking at what the colors were, I was crawling underneath and looking at the plumbing and electrical and reading about the wall and roof construction.

Cosmetics are much easier to change than structural issues or poor engineering. I wish that they would ditch some of the darn gadgets, and spend a bit more on structure or quality control. Why do I need a TV, cable hookups, microwave, etc. as standard equipment on a hybrid. It is not something you are going to full time in. It is something you are going to CAMP in most likely. Now a fifth wheel, is a different story.

[dragon-roo]

I just realized that some of my previous post might offend others. I didn't mean my comments about wood frame trailers to be so much of a criticism or put down, but just my personal preference.

Please accept my apology if I offended.

-Dragon-roo

[Mr Havercamp]

Originally Posted by dragon-roo

We came from a string of Coleman/Fleetwood popups, and there were some things on the Fleetwood that were higher quality or better engineered than the Roo, for sure. That said the last Fleetwood was 10 years older than the Roo so perhaps things have just gone downhill in that time, but even in it's day the Fleetwood was far superior in quality and engineering compared to most of the other brands of popups... the Rockwoods were second in my opinion. Of course Fleetwood is not in the popup segment anymore. Maybe they decided to exit the segment, instead of drop quality to compete?

Not exactly the reason and the "Fleetwood" of today is only a name and not the "Fleetwood" that went belly up........ Coleman made the design in the late 60's / 70's. I forget all the years and reasons but the Coleman popup business (brand rights and designs) ended up going to the old Fleetwood back in the 90's, then there were lawsuits between Coleman and Fleetwood. Around 2003 Fleetwood lost the rights to use the Coleman name, but still built the designs under the Fleetwood name. I believe the lawsuit had to do with Fleetwood cheapening up the construction and it affecting the Coleman brand negatively. Fleetwood went belly up during the recession unloading all their towable divisions and the original Coleman Somerset PA plant, and the Coleman designs ,were bought and operated for a few years by another holding group under the name FCTA. They reacquired the Coleman naming rights and re-branded them as Coleman until they ultimately closed up shop around 2011.

Sad to say it but to produce a popup equal to what the original Coleman designed and made in Somerset PA, they would most likely have to sell today for 20K or more. Coleman used to produce frames and a lot of the stamped parts in house. From what I have heard all of that original equipment to make those parts was either sold off or scrapped. Columbia NW, the makers of the Aliner, now make the Somerset brand of popups that "resemble" the Colemans. The quality and design/engineering stops at the look. They are built nowhere near as solid as the Coleman's were and even then are quite pricey.

[dragon-roo]

Wow, thanks for the info Mr. H! I knew some of the story but not all of it.

The Fleetwoods weren't cheap even in 2006 when we bought our last one. Even as a 1 year old camper we paid just under half of what our Roo would cost us 10 years later, but it was built like a tank compared to the roo. Unfolded length of that popup and the Roo 19 is within a couple of inches, yet even though it had a lot less 'stuff' the dry weight was only about 800 lbs. less than the Roo. That right there likely says something about the construction quality. My sister has it now, so I still have visitation rights

...and now the Coleman name is being put on some REALLY cheap trailers, but also some nice ones like the Livin' Lite popup.

[Grimshaw Traveller]

We were looking to trade our Crusader on a little better unit and spent a couple of days checking out new models on the lots. We did not look at all the units available but did find that any unit made somewhere other than Indiana was of better quality. The Cedar Creek and the Arctic Fox seemed to be put together better. Cedar Creek has been bought out by Forest River but the Cedar Creek Hathaway Edition still seems to be better than the others and I think that is because the old Company was left in tact and building better units. We only looked at the units with the floor plan that interested us.

[Mainframe]

Finally looked at my straps today, they are on there ok but I don't like the welds. I am gonna go over them with the mig when I get time. Changing the shower head tomorrow and gonna ad another sway bar.

[Mr Havercamp]

Originally Posted by Mainframe

Finally looked at my straps today, they are on there ok but I don't like the welds. I am gonna go over them with the mig when I get time. Changing the shower head tomorrow and gonna ad another sway bar.

Straps? Yours isn't angles?

I was just out playing around under it. I now do not think the tank would of fell out, but it sure did bend those angles. I sent an email to LCI and they requested pictures which I sent. They didn't have any answers other than they said to take it to a service center and get an estimate to send for them as a warranty repair. Since they could not tell me how to repair it I think they were counting on wherever I take it to come up with a fix?

I think they should of left a little space between the top of the water tank and the floor. Those MDPE tanks swell up like balloons and with no room above it all the weight and force go's down.

I stopped today and bought some steel. I am going to replace their under engineered 1-1/2" X 1/8 fabricated angles with 1-3/4 X 3/16 hot rolled ones. Problem solved. That will be cheaper than spending gas to tow it somewhere and then probably having to leave it for weeks. Other than that tank, I have to pick up some 3M weatherstrip adhesive and reattach the bottom D counter seal on the main slide and the top D counter seal on the small slide.

We're pretty happy with it overall.

[Mainframe]

Yes they are angles but welded to strap pieces, where they meet I will beef up the welds, I saw my tank swelled and I am going under again LOL I didn't realize they do that!

Ok so now I am thinking about a redo for the swelling. I will be watching it and let you know what I do.

Really love this rig though!
So cozy to be in it'
Can't wait to go out again!

[Wobbles]

So Sad, after the first loser they tried to hand you.

I guess you now have a decision to make. Will you lose most of this camping season going thru the mill with the dealer and FR or will you take matters in hand and resolve them yourself? You sound like you are able.

Put on your inspection googles and look deeper and decide.

BTW, Do you have a dark cloud following you around?
Sorry, just had to do it. Good luck.

[Mr Havercamp]

Originally Posted by Wobbles

So Sad, after the first loser they tried to hand you.

I guess you now have a decision to make. Will you lose most of this camping season going thru the mill with the dealer and FR or will you take matters in hand and resolve them yourself? You sound like you are able.

Put on your inspection googles and look deeper and decide.

BTW, Do you have a dark cloud following you around?
Sorry, just had to do it. Good luck.

Lol..........I'll be honest.....I spent the weekend trying to make stuff break and leak. Furnace on and off, fridge on and off, cool down and then let it warm up. Oven up to max. Turned my house water pressure up to full and hooked up the city water connection. It's been plugged in on shore power for 4 days. Thats all on top of a pretty thorough inspection Friday afternoon.

Other than the instant dissappointment when I noticed that tank deal Saturday morning I'm not worried.....or skeered.

I have been loving the storms we have been having. Every time the rain stops I run out and open bunk doors and baggage doors. I have all the access panels off and baffles removed and I crawl around with a flashlight. ...no leaks....thats a plus. The neighbor thinks I went bonkers.

Most of the small stuff Ive been doing I have done on our others. The only difference is I was planning on having this in December instead of May. I have 3 weeks till our annual Memorial day 10 nighter which will be the official shakedown.......Were only 25 miles from home so all will be good.