Tongue weight

[rocknroos]

I am looking to buy a Roo 19. Sticker on the Roo says that the tongue weight is 394 lbs. Does anyone know what the actual tongue weight on a Roo 19 would be with propane and batteries. Has anyone ever had theirs weighted when loaded. My TV is a Lincoln MKT which is the same as a Ford Flex with the ecoboost engine. It is rated at a 450 lb hitch weight and a 4500 lb towing capacity. I know that I am going to be pretty close to the MKT rating but I have seen a Flex pulling a Roo 19 once and it looked okay. Currently I have a Roo 17 and the MKT tows it easily, but it is a lighter TT. Thanks

[bikendan]

That 394 number is fantasy.
The actual loaded tongue weight will easily exceed 450lbs.

[raspivey]

You're over 450 lbs. The FR brochures say the dry weights they list are with propane and common options. Battery will add another 50 or so and you'll transfer about 12% of anything else in the camper to the front. I'd guess you'll be about 500 lbs loaded. Look at the sticker on your hitch and see if it lists a separate limit for weight distributing (which will be a must on that vehicle with that trailer ).

[Mr Havercamp]

You'll transfet more than 12% of anything in the camper to the front. Its a complicated calculation but a percentage of anything in the trailer ahead of the axle is hitch weight, the closer to front the higher the percentage. I had a SOB 19'ish hybrid with the same layout and with lower dry and GVW than a Roo 19 and my hitch weight approached 700 lbs.

You need to guesstimate 600 minimum. More if you ever intend on hauling water in the tank.

No comment on the MKT capability for towing a Roo 19 other than I would not choose that combination.

[Airdale]

Originally Posted by bikendan

That 394 number is fantasy.
The actual loaded tongue weight will easily exceed 450lbs.

Actually the manufacturer’s published hitch weight is a valid number for a fully loaded and evenly balanced trailer.

The manufacturer’s published hitch weight is used to validate the trailer’s certified total GAWR ratings and GVWR.

The following is a verbatim excerpt from the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 571.110, paragraph S9.2.…. “On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR. If tongue weight is specified as a range, the minimum value must be used.”

When an owner takes position of the trailer the hitch/tongue weight becomes 100% their responsibility.

[rocknroos]

Airedale I agree with your assessment. On this Roo 19 there are two axle rated at 2200# each which = 4400#. Add the published tongue weight of 394# and you get the GVWR 4794#. Which is the maximum weight of the TT plus cargo. So if the actual tongue weight would be closer to 600# then add that to the 4400# for the axles you get 6000# which is beyond the manufactures rating of 4794# for this TT. Something is not adding up.


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[Airdale]

Originally Posted by rocknroos

Airedale I agree with your assessment. On this Roo 19 there are two axle rated at 2200# each which = 4400#. Add the published tongue weight of 394# and you get the GVWR 4794#. Which is the maximum weight of the TT plus cargo. So if the actual tongue weight would be closer to 600# then add that to the 4400# for the axles you get 6000# which is beyond the manufactures rating of 4794# for this TT. Something is not adding up.


Sent from my iPad using Forest River Forums

When an owner takes position of the trailer the hitch/tongue weight becomes 100% their responsibility.

Let's work with these specs ( http://www.forestriverinc.com/produc...age=5057&Tab=4 ).

Add the UVW and the CCC...That's the trailer's GVWR...deduct the hitch weight...that's the total GAWR. Divide by the number of axles... that's the individual GAWRs...

[lbrjet]

Published hitch weights are dry numbers, not fully loaded numbers.


2010 F250 5.4L 3.73
2011 Flagstaff 831FKBSS
Equal-i-zer 4pt 12K

[bikendan]

Originally Posted by lbrjet

Published hitch weights are dry numbers, not fully loaded numbers.


2010 F250 5.4L 3.73
2011 Flagstaff 831FKBSS
Equal-i-zer 4pt 12K

x2

[KMP44]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Actually the manufacturer’s published hitch weight is a valid number for a fully loaded and evenly balanced trailer.

No, its an unloaded weight.

Originally Posted by Airdale

The following is a verbatim excerpt from the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 571.110, paragraph S9.2.…. “On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR. If tongue weight is specified as a range, the minimum value must be used.”

Key words here are "must not be less" or in other words must be more. All this says is the "recommended" tongue weight plus max axle weights must be more than GVWR. So all it says is the tongue plus axle capacity must be more than the GVWR - which is logical.

I don't know what recommended tongue weight is, but its not the same thing as the fictional brochure tongue weight.

My Roo's tongue weight was 850 lbs at the scale - with the WDH properly setup and the trailer level. That was more than 250 pounds over the brochure weight and the total trailer weight was 300 pounds under the max.

I think in the OP's case, there is no way the actual tongue weight will be under 450, and we don't know the payload spec on the tv, but that may be an issue as well.

[asquared]

Ideal tongue weight is typically 13-15% of loaded trailer weight. On average people tend to add approximately 1000-1500 lbs to a tt (not sure if this statistic is the same with a hybrid). That would give you a dry weight of 3654 + 1000 lbs realistic cargo estimate = 4654 lbs loaded trailer weight. 4654 lb loaded trailer weight x 13% = 605 lbs loaded tongue weight. You will be over your tow ratings. You either need a light trailer or bigger (beefier) tow vehicle.


Check this towing planner site out. It was developed by a long time forum member and will help you figure out what you can safely tow.

[Airdale]

RV trailer manufacturers must build trailers in accordance existing government regulations and standards.

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) are specific and to the point.

Here again is a direct quote from FMVSS 571.110 paragraph, S9.2; On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR. If tongue weight is specified as a range, the minimum value must be used.

In the context of 571.110 GVWR is the trailer at its maximum weight. GAWR is the maximum amount of weight allowed on an axle.

Also within 571.110 are the directions for calculating the trailer’s cargo capacity and the explanation of cargo labeling and how it’s supposed to be changed when options are added after the certification label has been affixed to the trailer.

What the manufacturer’s published tongue weight is telling us is, when the trailer has a full cargo load and is evenly balanced it will pass the test in S9.2. Thereafter it’s in the owners ball park, so to speak.

Bottom line; The trailer manufacturer cannot sell a trailer that does not pass a safety requirement.

[KMP44]

Originally Posted by Airdale

Actually the manufacturer’s published hitch weight is a valid number for a fully loaded and evenly balanced trailer.

What the manufacturer’s published tongue weight is telling us is, when the trailer has a full cargo load and is evenly balanced it will pass the test in S9.2.

Do you have a source to back this up? The brochure tongue weight is nothing but an empty weight.

Then the manufacturer puts a sticker on the actual trailer that says you can add up to XXX pounds of cargo and they give you a maximum axle rating. Beyond that - how much you add, where you add it, what wdh you use or don't use is up to the buyer - and whether you tow it with dually or minivan is up to the owner.

Telling somebody they can use the brochure weight as loaded tongue weight is, IMO, flat out wrong and bad advice.

[asquared]

Originally Posted by Airdale

RV trailer manufacturers must build trailers in accordance existing government regulations and standards.

Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) are specific and to the point.

Here again is a direct quote from FMVSS 571.110 paragraph, S9.2; On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR. If tongue weight is specified as a range, the minimum value must be used.

In the context of 571.110 GVWR is the trailer at its maximum weight. GAWR is the maximum amount of weight allowed on an axle.

Also within 571.110 are the directions for calculating the trailer’s cargo capacity and the explanation of cargo labeling and how it’s supposed to be changed when options are added after the certification label has been affixed to the trailer.

What the manufacturer’s published tongue weight is telling us is, when the trailer has a full cargo load and is evenly balanced it will pass the test in S9.2. Thereafter it’s in the owners ball park, so to speak.

Bottom line; The trailer manufacturer cannot sell a trailer that does not pass a safety requirement.

Not exactly airdale. Yes the numbers need to add up to ensure the trailer can carry it's gvwr but that is not necessarily the ideal loaded distribution. The point in the above statute is to ensure the tires and axles can carry the trailer weight, not to determine the correct loaded tongue weight.

I challenge you to go hit the cat scales to weigh your rig. Weigh with a full tank of fuel, all passengers pets and gear as you would when going camping. Weigh just the tow vehicle on first pass. Have the front axle on scale pad 1, rear axle on scale pad 2. On second weigh you will have Tow vehicle plus trailer but no wdh (if you usually use one, do not hook up the bars for this pass). Have the truck positioned the same as pass 1 and all trailer axles on scale pad 3. Now if you usually use a wdh do a third pass with the wdh hooked up (tow vehicle and trailer position same as second pass).

You will now have 3 weigh tickets to compare. Ticket one gives you you Mr tow vehicle information. You can use this to get your actual loaded tv weight. You can then take the tv gcwr and subtract the scaled TV weight to get your adjusted tow capacity. Take the tv gvwr and subtract the tv loaded weight to get your available payload. Because anything g you put in or on the tv subtracts from its tow capacity and payload, you will find these new numbers to be less than brochure value and door sticker value.

Now take the first and second weigh tickets. The difference in total gross weight between the two tickets is your loaded trailer weight. Add up the steer and drive axle weights on the second weigh ticket and then subtract the gross weight of the first weigh ticket to get your actual loaded tongue weight. I guarantee it is heavier than brochure weight if you are properly loaded to the ideal 13-15% tongue weight.

The third pass will show you if your wdh is properly adjusted. The idea is to return the front axle to as close to unloaded weight as possible without going heavier.

[rocknroos]

Very interesting although somewhat confusing thread on this topic of tongue weights and published information. However I did not necessarily want to go down that rabbit hole. What I was hoping for was what if any Roo 19 owners knew their actual tongue weights. The published Lincoln MKT hitch weight of 450 lbs is without a WDH. They do not publish a value using a WDH so I probably have some wiggle room on tongue weight if I use a WDH. The DW is the one that would like to go from the Roo 17 to the 19. It might be a good time to talk her into upgrading my TV.

[2016251RKS]

It's been my experience that the sales staff will tell you anything to close the deal. Ask them to put the trailer tongue on a scale as it sits on the lot. See that number? then you can add to it a given percentage (10 - 15%) for camping cargo, hitch weight, pax weight.
IMHO your tow vehicle will not be able to control the trailer. It may pull it nicely on a straight, level road. But. . . stopping? Safe control under normal driving environment?

[rocknroos]

I did ask the dealer to put a battery and tanks on TT then weight the tongue. I am not holding my breath on that. As far as brakes, I spent over $600 to upgrade my brakes, because I am planning a trip out west later this summer. As far as towing the weight, I don't think it is going to be an issue. Recently I took a trip with my Roo 17. On the way to the CG I had a fully loaded TT and was towing with a significant tail wind. I was averaging almost 14 mpg. On the way home with a lighter load in the TT I had the same wind but now it was a head wind. My mpg went down to 8. What I learned that the TT loaded weight is less significant to towing than the amount of air you are trying to push with the front of the TT. I tow at 65 mph.

[rocknroos]

My Lincoln MKT has the Ford 3.5 liter ecoboost engine. The engine is rated at 365 hp and 350 ft/lbs of torque. This is basically the same engine that they put in the F-150 and the Explorer. The difference being the curb weight of the vehicle, the gear ratio and the suspension system. I did the calculations and I have enough payload capacity to be able to handle the Roo 19. IMHO it is the suspension system, which reflects on the tongue weight, that limits my towing capacity.

[2016251RKS]

"...difference being the curb weight of the vehicle, the gear ratio and the suspension system. I did the calculations and I have enough payload capacity to be able to handle the Roo 19. IMHO it is the suspension system,...."

Exactly.... transmission (temps), gearing, brakes, suspension all critical elements to be considered.

[asquared]

Some vehicles are not designed for wdh. You may want to double check this. Your light payload and short wheelbase are going to make controlling the longer trailer more difficult... speaking from someone who got pushed down a mountain towing a tt with an suv. My combo was an armada rated to tow 9100 lbs. We had a 30' tt with a dry weight of 5700 lbs, loaded weight of 7300 lbs. Dry tongue weight of 810 lbs,loaded tongue weight right at 1000 lbs. Control on Highways was bad, think tail wagging dog. Not enough engine to control down a 7% grade. The armada payload was only 900 lbs.

Go weigh your current set up as I indicated in my response above. You can calculate your cargo weight from your current tt weights after scaling your loaded rig. Add that weight (it will include battery weight) to the proposed rig and calculate 13-15% to get the tongue weight. You will then have a good idea of what you are looking at.