Gvwr???

[reubenray]

In the process of researching fifth wheel's I am getting more confused about these weights. I know some of you will say you have to weigh everything to get the accurate weights. But if you do not have everything you cannot weigh them. This means you cannot weigh everything untilt you buy and you cannot buy until you check the weights. It is like the adage "which came first the chicken or the egg".

In comparing several models there are some with lower dry hitch weights, but higher GVWR. For example the Wildwood 24RLS has a hitch weight of 1,150 lbs., a dry weight of 6,660 lbs and a GVWR of 8,150 with a cargo capacity of 1,455. To compare there is a Extralite 24RLX with a hitch weight of 930 (-220 difference), a dry weight of 6,949 (+289), GVWR of 11,090 (+ 2,940) and a cargo capacity of 4,141 (+2,686).

So wouldn't the GVWR come down on the Extralite if I was only had only the weight of 1,455 added (same as Wildwood 24RLS) to 8,404. This comparision would also have the same amounts of water in the tanks and the propane.

[prof_fate]

GVWR is Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. The max is can be loaded with all your stuff in it.

Think of it like a bucket. You can put 5 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket, but you don't have to. If you only put in 3 gallons you've not changed what it can hold, only what it's holding now.

GVWR is something to consider regarding your tow vehicle. Can it tow a fully loaded trailer?
The cargo capacity weight is what it can carry - including water, sewage, batteries and propane. IMO 1400 lbs is very little cargo capacity when those things can eat up 500lbs. So how much stuff do you carry when camping? If you're new to camping then yes, that's gonna be a hard guess.

We're moving from a very small pop to a 28' TT and I know we never carried much, wt wise, and I know that's gonna change big time. We never had the room and now we will, we'll be camping longer so need more clothing/towels/sheets/food/water, etc.

[dimurrrw]

I'm not sure of what your question is but are you assuming that the two trailers have the same axles? In looking at the specs I notice that the pin weight on the 241RLX seems to be awfully light. Hope this helps.

[reubenray]

Originally Posted by dimurrrw

I'm not sure of what your question is but are you assuming that the two trailers have the same axles? In looking at the specs I notice that the pin weight on the 241RLX seems to be awfully light. Hope this helps.

That is what I thought at first, but is it right or wrong?

[reubenray]

Originally Posted by prof_fate

GVWR is Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. The max is can be loaded with all your stuff in it.

Think of it like a bucket. You can put 5 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket, but you don't have to. If you only put in 3 gallons you've not changed what it can hold, only what it's holding now.

GVWR is something to consider regarding your tow vehicle. Can it tow a fully loaded trailer?
The cargo capacity weight is what it can carry - including water, sewage, batteries and propane. IMO 1400 lbs is very little cargo capacity when those things can eat up 500lbs. So how much stuff do you carry when camping? If you're new to camping then yes, that's gonna be a hard guess.

We're moving from a very small pop to a 28' TT and I know we never carried much, wt wise, and I know that's gonna change big time. We never had the room and now we will, we'll be camping longer so need more clothing/towels/sheets/food/water, etc.

Being it is only two of us I could not see we would pack that much. I need to figure out some way to get an estimate of everything. This would include towels, dishes, cookware, clothes, folding chairs, etc.

Is there a calculator or chart somewhere on these forums that may have this info?

[Terier]

Originally Posted by dimurrrw

I'm not sure of what your question is but are you assuming that the two trailers have the same axles? In looking at the specs I notice that the pin weight on the 241RLX seems to be awfully light. Hope this helps.

Could you explain a little about the pin weigh and how it could make a difference? This is something new to me and I would love to have some understanding of it.

Thanks,
T.

[prof_fate]

Pin Weight is like tounge weight - this weight is carried on the truck and added to it's cargo carrying capacity to figure to make sure you've not exceeded the truck's GVWR.

You also need to consider the rear axle rating of your truck too as all this pin weight is right over the axle.

If there is a calculator that would be great! I hope there is...

With my truck/trailer I'll be close to GCWR - gross combined weight rating, teh total weight of everything rolling down the road. 5500 lb truck (gonna weight it as options such as tires/wheels can add 200lbs!), gas (250#), 700# of people/pets, 60# of hitch, 5400 lb of empty trailer, 120# of propane/battery...11750. My truck is rated at 12,500. Now we've got wheel chocks and leveling wood to throw in there, and others 'needs' just to set up - 75#? Towels, sheets, cleaning supplies, 10#? Food? Beer? Coffee pot? Water can add 400# but we'll rarely if ever haul that. And I'm betting my truck is closer to 5800lbs as it's loaded (power everything, running boards, etc).

I think we'll be fine but all the research I did ahead of time didn't show my how the specific truck and options affected what it can tow. GCWR can swing, 1000, 1500 lbs and that info is buried in the owners manual, not anywhere online.

[prof_fate]

Originally Posted by dimurrrw

I'm not sure of what your question is but are you assuming that the two trailers have the same axles? In looking at the specs I notice that the pin weight on the 241RLX seems to be awfully light. Hope this helps.

Not being a 5th wheeler I don't know the specifics of such trailers, but I'd imagine the diff is from where the cargo can go - if the water tanks are in front the axles then that would/could increase pin weight a lot in one trailer, and if behind the axles lower it on another (from leverage).

A TT is somewhat easier, I would think, to 'balance' and easier to weight (drop it so the tounge jack in a scale). If you have a pin jack/stand then I guess you could do that with a 5r...and I'm guessing the pin weight is more important to know/manage as you don't want to exceed your rear GAWR.

[dimurrrw]

Originally Posted by Terier

Could you explain a little about the pin weigh and how it could make a difference? This is something new to me and I would love to have some understanding of it.

Thanks,
T.

I'm not a fiver person so my understanding is somewhat limited. Having said that, I believe that most fivers have a pin weight between 15 and 20 percent. This percentage can be affected by how the trailer is loaded. Pin weight also affects stability when towing. Wander through this post on rv.net. I think find will find answers to a lot of your questions.
RV.Net Open Roads Forum: What is the optimal pin weight PERCENTAGE of trailer weight?

[crocus]

From what I understand, the GVWR of the camper is the hitch weight plus the weight rating of the axles. The same trailer, with heavier axles would have a higher GVWR.
Ours has a pin weight of about 1400 lbs, and 2x4000 lb axles, for a GVWR of 9400 lbs, more or less.

[Dave_Monica]

Originally Posted by reubenray

Being it is only two of us I could not see we would pack that much. I need to figure out some way to get an estimate of everything. This would include towels, dishes, cookware, clothes, folding chairs, etc.

Is there a calculator or chart somewhere on these forums that may have this info?

I'd use a 1000 lbs as a reasonable weight of 'stuff' that two people would use/need for a camping trip.

As mentioned before, pin weight is the weight carried by the truck...the manufacturer's pin weights are always for an unloaded camper. The number can grow substantially depending on the layout, where the storage areas are located, where the fresh water tank is if you plan to carry some water. You can usually look at the layout and take an educated guess at the pin weight once loaded.

Dave

[dimurrrw]

And let's not forget that 10% safety margin.

[reubenray]

Originally Posted by Dave_Monica

I'd use a 1000 lbs as a reasonable weight of 'stuff' that two people would use/need for a camping trip.

As mentioned before, pin weight is the weight carried by the truck...the manufacturer's pin weights are always for an unloaded camper. The number can grow substantially depending on the layout, where the storage areas are located, where the fresh water tank is if you plan to carry some water. You can usually look at the layout and take an educated guess at the pin weight once loaded.

Dave

When you say "unloaded" is this with the furniture, bed, tables, appliances, etc. or with nothing in it?

[Dave_Monica]

Originally Posted by reubenray

When you say "unloaded" is this with the furniture, bed, tables, appliances, etc. or with nothing in it?

The manufacturer's Dry Weight (I'm calling unloaded weight) would be without optional euipment, propane, battery(s) all your camping gear, food, clothing, etc. You can add about 1500 lbs to the mfr's dry weight as far as the camper loaded, ready to camp.

Hope this clarifies...

Dave

[Herk7769]

Gonna try and help here. Bear with me as I will need to assemble some links to calculators and such.

The first one is: Fifth Wheel Weight Calculator

I will try to make some analogies concerning how all this fits together so please forgive me if I make it "too simple" or "too confusing." Analogies are never exact; they just try to get the principle across.

Think of your 5th wheel camper as a teeter totter with the main axles as the fulcrum. If there was exactly the same weight behind the wheels as in front; your "pin weight" would be zero. This would be a VERY unstable camper to tow and it would wag the dog like crazy.

5th Wheels need to be loaded "front heavy" from 15 to 25% of TOTAL weight "on the pin" to be safely towed. That means a 10,000 pound camper (actual weight) would need to be loaded such that between 1500 pounds and 2500 pounds of that 10,000 pound camper would be carried by the truck's hitch and the rest would be carried by the campers axles (8500 - 7500 pounds).

Now, lets say this notional camper has a maximum gross weight of 10,000 pounds. As shipped from the factory with all the cabinets and options, 2 30 pound bottles of propane and a 12 volt battery, it is "out the door" weighed at 8200 pounds "dry" weight. It will have a max cargo weight allowed of 10,000 - 8200 or 1800 pounds of cargo.

They will also weigh the pin at the factory and lets say the "dry weight pin weight" works out to be 1400 pounds.

so, your sticker will say:

GVWR 10,000
Dry Weight 8200
pin weight 1400
max cargo 1800

They typically will put 2 - 4500 pound axles under this "notional" camper.

There would be 8000 pounds carried by the wheels and 2000 pounds carried by the trucks hitch if the camper was loaded correctly to its maximum weight of 10,000 pounds.

If you are loading your camper to its maximum capacity, LEVEL towing is very important because if the front of the camper's frame is lots higher than the back; since the front is supported by the hitch; less weight will be carried by the front tandem axle and more by the rear tandem axle. In this scenario, the rear axle could be overloaded by carrying more than its share of the 8000 pounds to be carried by the wheels. (like jacking up the front of the car; the front wheels slowly come off the ground and weight shifts to the back.)

Summing up, the DRY weight and Dry pin weights are good numbers if you tow as it came from the factory. no water, no food, no clothes, no generator, no toys, well you get the picture. So those numbers are useless EXCEPT for initial planning to see what different campers weigh and whether you are wasting your time looking at that AWESOME 38 foot long monster with granite table tops.

Use the maximum gross weight and 20% of the maximum GVW as the max pin weight for a more realistic idea of what you can tow. Remember your pickup has to be able to CARRY that 20% plus the weight of the hitch, cargo, and passengers.
But that is another thread.

Hope I did not lose (or confuse) anyone.