Newer than newbie! (I think we're getting a trailer!)

[sudz]

We don't actually have a trailer yet.

I love camping. My wife doesn't.

2 weeks ago we went camping and I pulled out all the stops. 8 person tent, Hammocks, nice comfy chairs to read in, Plenty of firewood, Powered and watered campsite, Electric heater in tent... and she enjoyed herself! She still wasn't a fan of the tent/cold (even with the heater) but she got really excited about it, and our 2 year old LOVED LOVED LOVED the whole thing. This is all in spite of riding out the worst thunderstorm I've seen in a while ( even a tornado 5 minutes from our campsite! Eek!)

Its not really the simple lightweight camping I was used to, but I sure enjoyed it.

We have a 2 year old, and one on the way. My wife used to have a stationary trailer growing up, and has nothing but fond memories, so we've pretty well settled on a hard wall Travel trailer (no hybrids) The idea is In a pinch, if we get to the destination and its pouring... we can pile into the trailer and ride it out in relative comfort.

Because there will (eventually) be 4 of us, My floorplan is pretty well mandated: Rear Bunk Front queen. 174BH. Our 2013 Dodge Grand Caravan SE caps out at 3600 towing, but my particular van doesn't have the "self leveling suspension" and the tow rating is not super clear without it. It does have the heavy duty cooling, so I'm assuming with a good brake controller and load distributing hitch I'll be ok.


I've got curt class 3 Hitch on order (4000lbs, 400lb tonge, 5000/500 with load distribution), 4 Pole wiring harness, and Trailer Brake wiring kit on order, 4pin --> 7 Pin adapter, mounting plate and socket. I'm looking at the Tekonsha P2 brake controller. (its 40 dollars cheaper than the P3 and I can't see any tangible benefits over the P2)

I want to keep the trailer under 3000lbs dry/unloaded, so I have a fair margin for stuff (mostly we'll be wet camping, so I won't need to fill the freshwater tank, and the vast majority of the places we'll go will have a blackwater dump) That being said, Kids come with stuff. Lots of it, so i'm not indenial about how fast 600 lbs will be used up.

I've been using the google a lot, and there are a few things I can't get a solid answer on. (parking on hills, fiberglass vs aluminium, Build quality between makers, setting up solar, Security, yearly maintenance, other considerations) Hopefully joining here will allow me to tap into the experience of thousands of other people who've done exactly what I'm doing!

I'm beyond excited. We went to a local RV shop and crawled around a forest river viking 17BH... It was surprisingly spacious, I'm a big guy (on my way down) and I could even fit in the booth!

I just want to provide the best I can afford for my family, something that will last a long time, that we can make awesome memories with.

Right now the Viking 17BH is on sale for 18K... plus about 2k in fees and required hardware, + tax, so I'm looking at $23,000 CAD out the door. Sales guy said thats as cheap as they get. I don't think we'll be ready to jump on it this year. My hope is to get the van outfitted and then rent one for a weekend in September, just to be ABSOLUTELY sure this is for us. (a hitch is always useful)

Where did everyone else start? is there an idiots guide/videos etc I can watch? What caught you unexpected? any classic/costly mistakes That many people make?

If you made it this far, Thanks for reading!

[Chief T]

sudz, as you, I'm relatively new to this as well. I think in order to tow the 174BH, you will need an SUV with greater tow rating or 1/2 truck to tow. The TT comes in at 2960 dry and you will need to consider the weight of propane, the required gear (water hoses, black tank tubes, etc), weight of the hitch, full tank of gas and the weight of the passengers in the mini van.

Wish you all the best.

[sudz]

the RV place said that they pretty much only sold the 17BH to minivan owners. its 2920 lbs.

The trailer is advertised as "minivan towable" and the specs/marketing on the dodge caravan BOAST that the Dodge caravan has the highest tow rating of any minivan (100lbs more... wooo)

I can't afford a new vehicle and a new trailer, so either I tow it with the caravan, or I don't get a trailer at all and this adventure is dead before it started.

[RSBivings]

looking at rvtrader the model you were looking at has several new 2018 for under 13,000.oo not sure if they are in your area but your delear should be able to come close to that priceoff that price

[Chief T]

Originally Posted by sudz

the RV place said that they pretty much only sold the 17BH to minivan owners. its 2920 lbs.

The trailer is advertised as "minivan towable" and the specs/marketing on the dodge caravan BOAST that the Dodge caravan has the highest tow rating of any minivan (100lbs more... wooo)

I can't afford a new vehicle and a new trailer, so either I tow it with the caravan, or I don't get a trailer at all and this adventure is dead before it started.

A dealer will say anything to make a sale. Check out this video from a dealer for your model TT. He states that you will be at max towing capacity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nWGv-MzK0g

You may need to go down a size to the 15BH to make it work.

[bikendan]

Originally Posted by sudz

the RV place said that they pretty much only sold the 17BH to minivan owners. its 2920 lbs.

The trailer is advertised as "minivan towable" and the specs/marketing on the dodge caravan BOAST that the Dodge caravan has the highest tow rating of any minivan (100lbs more... wooo)

I can't afford a new vehicle and a new trailer, so either I tow it with the caravan, or I don't get a trailer at all and this adventure is dead before it started.

PLEASE DON'T make the #1 Newbie mistake:
Believing the Dealer and brochure dry weights.

Your minivan has a frontal area limitation that any conventional TT will exceed.
In fact, if you'd read your owners manual, it will be stated in the Towing section of the manual.
Yours also doesn't have the factory tow package, so it doesn't have the 3600lbs towing capacity.
You have to duplicate the factory tow package to get that number.
It's more than just adding a hitch receiver.
Plus you'll need a 75lb WDH with sway control.

Trailers in this class have really poor CCC numbers.
The 17bh has only 787lbs for CCC. That'll be easily be used up. Batteries, propane, water, food and cargo will add up quickly.

Unfortunately, your minivan is really only appropriate for a popup or A-frame trailer that has a low profile.

Minivans are designed to carry people, not for towing.
Unibody construction, front wheel drive, poor towing gearing are just some of the negatives.

[SuicideSaints]

To get you started... Rule number 1, dont take any dealers/sales person word for what you can tow. EVER! Do the research yourself!!!!!!

There is way more to towing than just "pulling" the weight, your vehicle has to support the weight in terms of "carrying" it and stopping it. You need to get familiar with words like carrying capacity, tongue weight, available payload, GVWR and GCWR.

The brochure has a weight of 2969 UVW (dry weight, unloaded vehicle weight) and a GVWR of 3756. The max weight of the TT is already over your absolute max trailer weight of the towing vehicle. You have a hitch weight (tongue weight) of 441 which is just shy of your max tongue weight for you hitch/receiver. A weight distribution hitch is usually 60-100 lbs depending on which one you get. So right off the bat you have a tongue weight 441 (empty trailer) plus at least a 60 lb hitch is 501 lbs. So with just the trailer completely empty and your hitch you are already over your rated capacity of the class 3 you indicated.

Once you add in a battery and other things the tongue weight just goes up , further putting you in the negative. To illustrate how this effects your towing vehicle, lets say you end up with a tongue weight of 600-700 all said and done ready to camp, have 3 of your friends (equaling 600 lbs) stand on your bumper and slightly bounce up and down to mimic the weight of the camper and movement with the road as if you were towing. I truly believe if you do this you will see what Im/and others are talking about when we say to be careful with weights and towing.

On top of all this your camper will still weigh the absolute max allowable for your vehicle. This means you are at max, you have nothing left over, no safety net, no margin of error, nothing. Im not trying to scare you by any means Im just trying to paint the picture and tell you what no one told me before my first purchase.

I started with a smaller SUV and camper, it was maxed out, I loved camping but I hated the drive to and from the site because I was at my max and it was not fun (dangerous). I upgraded my vehicle to a 1/2 ton truck, it performed way better, more stable and safer. I then upgrade trucks again to a 3/4 ton and that was even better. Im not saying you need a 3/4 ton truck I am merely saying that the heavier duty/more capable the vehicle the better the towing experience. I now have a 1 ton truck and fifth wheel but I started right where you are at and Im telling you from experience I wished I was on here and had someone telling me what Im telling you.

If you do nothing else at least contemplate (or put a few friends on your bumper and bounce it up and down) how that much weight behind you will effect your mini van. Also consider how it effects your shocks, your tires, and stopping distance.

As another said $18K on sale seems a bit high, Im seeing them for $13K-$15K but your market may dictate differently.

I hope all of this helped and didn't scare you away, the camper life is an awesome life.

[karrun]

I'll second what others have said here. Don't take a dealer's word for it. A minivan will be okay with a pop-up or A frame most likely, but anything else, and you will be overloaded.

[sudz]

Well, My dream is over before it started then.

I'll see if I can return the hitch/wiring. It arrived last night.

My wife said no to a tent trailer (we borrowed her dads once, she didn't like it.)

We bought the minivan 3 months ago , we're not trading it. I drive 45,000km's a year, I can't afford to drive a big car (my DD 4cyl honda accord is fuel efficient, and I still burn $3000 in gas a year)

18 thousand is in Canadian Dollars. After conversion it equates to about $14,000.

What I don't understand is tow ratings in north america. In europe the nissan roque (xterra/xtrail there) can tow 3300lbs with trailerbrakes. In Canada its limited to 1500lbs. I looked at comparisons and they're EXACTLY the same weight, specs etc. (They even have smaller engines!)

I assumed that there was a margin already built into the "max towing" and that a weight distribution hitch could compensate for the extra tongue weight and load the front axle better to be safer.

Anyway, Dodge Caravan GVWR is 6050lbs, Van weights 4510, giving me 1540lbs of cargo+tonge weight.

Me, my wife small kids and booster seats and gas in the tank account for 700lbs. Our gear in the van will be about 200lbs. 1540lbs - 900 = 640 lbs

Assuming (shudder) the trailer weighs 3600lbs loaded (I'd want at least 10-12% Tonge weight for stability, even with the LD hitch- 360-440lbs So I still have 200lbs for the hitch/LD hardware.

Its at max. I'll have to be careful. I'm not going across the country, I'm staying within 3 hours of home, Weekends only. I See tons of other people do it (which I know doesn't make it SAFE) but with an abundance of caution I think either I'm doing it this way, or not at all. I think I'll definitely rent one this fall to see how it feels all loaded up before I bite the bullet on a trailer.

I called the dealer - My van definitely has the tow prep package, but the auto leveling suspension was only included on the upper trims of van - according to the dealer it doesn't effect tow rating. Will look at sticker again to be sure.

[Iwritecode]

I'm with the others in saying that I'd be leary about towing a trailer that size with a minivan. We pulled a pop-up with a minivan when we first started out. But it was a 10-foot bare-bones trailer. No AC, no water heater, no slide-out, no extra storage. It weighed maybe 1000 lbs. but it was all that van could handle.

When we moved up to a bigger pop-up we had to get an SUV. Not only for the towing capabilities, but for the extra cargo space as well. Our kids were getting older and always wanted to bring friends, which meant more "stuff".

I was also like you where I was driving 30,000 miles a year. So the SUV only got driven on weekends.

Renting first is probably a good idea but you also need to think about the future. If you are maxed out now you have no wiggle room for when the kids get bigger and you want/need to start bringing more things with you.

[Gonefishing1]

You have a good ideal rent one first. Then u will,know for sure 1 if you really like it and 2 how it works out for you

[Cypressloser]

We to started with a tent many many years ago, had bear encounters, a creek flowing through the tent in heavy downpour ....
Our first trailer was a 10 year old Westwind (Travelaire, if anyone remembers), it fit the bill. We found that new trailers at the time were overpriced, we sold it after a few years and got exactly what we paid for it.

Watch out when a dealer tries to add on admin fees, doc. fees etc., run as fast as you can and don't turn back, esp. $2000 is ridiculous. When buying a new vehicle or trailer for that matter I make it very clear to the salesman that I'm dealing on an all in and out the door price incl. tax and if they don't understand this I'm gone.

[SuicideSaints]

I'll try and get a little more in depth into the numbers.....

Your camper

UVW/Dry weight = 2969
GVWR = 3756
CCC= 787
Battery weighs about 40 lbs
If you fill with water that will weigh (33gl X 8.3lbs) = 273 lbs
So if you put a battery and tow with water that minus's 313.9 equaling 473.1 lbs left over for all your gear, cargo, food, personal items and entertainment items.

Next up is a realistic tongue weight. Again you only have 787 CCC so we will assume you use everything your camper has to offer, even then you might overload it but we will assume you are within "spec" and take it to its max but not over.

GVWR = 3756
Hitch weight = 441 (coachman is estimating 12% of the GVWR)
Hitch weight (15%) = 563 TW could be as high (if not even higher) due to loading scenario, battery up front, your storage is up front

So lets use a range of 441 (almost everyone is never lower then brochure weight) to a high value of 563 (this assumes you never overload and stick to a perfect 15%)

Now for your tow vehicle:

GVWR = 6050
vehicle weight = 4510
16 gl of Gas (20 X 6.3 lbs) = 101
People and car/booster seats = 600 (I minus'd the known gas weight from your 700 lb estimate)
Gear you said to be packed in the tow vehicle = 200
Receiver hitch and wiring = 63 ( you said that you will have to install this)
Equal-i-zer Hitch = 97 (popular brand)
Tongue weight = 441 to 563

Totaling = 38 to (-84)

So this is saying once you load the trailer to its max (which is going to be easy to do) and then load your Caravan up with the things you stated you you will be 38 lbs from the max (best case scenario) to 84 lbs overloaded (worst case scenario with the current parameters).

The second you add anything extra that you didn't account for above it further puts you in the negative. Think about it this way, I assume your children are small right now, let's say they gain 25 lbs each over the next year or two that is 50 more pounds in your tow vehicle (but they still need a car seat), or if when they get even bigger and want to bring toys (no car seat but now you are still carrying the weight in toys). What if they bring a friend or you bring a nephew, 50 more pounds.

Right now you are at the max which leaves no room for anything else and we dont even know what that ride will be like once you max out the vehicle.

Your back end will sag down (you are going to have 500-620 lbs hanging of the back), then you might need to add load leveling (bags, springs, blocks) of some sort (more weight and you're already at max). Your tires are probably P rated (maybe not), they wont handle really well, you might need stiffer tires to handle the added stress for stability and comfort.

Like I said before Im not trying to deter you from camping or trying to scare you, these are just the numbers and the scenario above only illustrates the situation now and says you're at absolute max, it allows ZERO room for additional loading or capability in the future.

If you are really wanting to do it, I would strongly recommend you get the hitch installed and rent a similar sized trailer to test out. At least if you do that it would lessen the risk for loss (financial impact) if you realize the current vehicle isn't up to the task. This would be better than buying the trailer and you realize it wont work and then your wife hates the drive there because it is sketch/white knuckle.

These are all just my opinions....

[sudz]

No White water weight. We'll be using full service sites (maybe black/grey water weight to dump station in campground, thats about it)

That helps a bit, right?

Also, Wife won't be driving. I barely trust her with the minivan as it is.

My plan is to mount spare tire on rear, bicycles.

I bought new tires for the van a month ago. They're definitely passenger tires, but I did spring for the higher load rating (102H instead of 98T that were on there) just because I assumed it would be better for towing and help it from being so slushy feeling. thats 3748lbs for tire limited weight on the back axle. If I hit that I think other issues will be readily apparent. With the 56/44 weight distribution 1874 is on the back axle empty, I can load all my remaining cargo weight on the back axle and 500lbs tongue weight and be at their capacity. (but most of the weight will be in the middle/near the front.)

Checklist:

Tires: OK
Tow Rating: Marginal/at limits/Don't Overload
Tongue weight: Marginal/Care needed
Trailer Weight: Marginal (No water)
Transmission: Probably doomed over time but extended drivetrain warranty covers it (even with towing, I checked).
Braking: OK I do my own pads/rotors and will stay on top of it. Proportional Trailer brake system
Engine: OK. Has upgraded cooling. enough torque (260 ft/lbs, 280HP)

my conclusion:

• I will be at or near every maximum capacity. I will be wearing out the van quickly. Maintenance will be key.
  
  With smaller margins I will require more attention and take extreme care to ensure loading is acceptable and balanced.
  
  Considerations weight will be made for every purchase. (Plates, glasses, Stored camping items (chairs, toys etc) etc as they all add up)
  
  Larger trips will require a companion vehicle. This will likely occur anyway as my wife may be staying camping for the weekdays while I go back to work.

I will be test towing a trailer. We're pretty organized so I'll throw a bunch of totes full of gear to weigh down the trailer with a good 500-600 pounds. I live in a city with a cliff and a huge bridge with long steep grades and crosswinds, so I'll take it on that to ensure I feel safe.

You guys definitely opened my eyes. I would have been that guy who just believed the RV Salesman and drove off thinking I was perfectly safe and be clueless. In reality its going to require a lot more thought and planning to ensure I do this safely, but I believe it can be done, particularly as we're relatively light weight packers. As the years go on, I'll be looking at getting a new vehicle. in the next 2 years. I'll make sure to get something with a 5000lbs tow capacity so I can be well within limits. The Kia Sorento V6 / Hyundai Sante Fe have 5000lbs limits and still get good milage)

Thanks all!

[snakebitten]

I never wanna be a dream-killer!

And you have already discovered the wonders of "family camping".
There are so few things we can experience as a family that can compete at creating lifetime cherished memories.

Don't give up!!!!

Instead, verify for yourself what you can and can't safely haul with your new minivan.

Rent!!!!

Take your time. Enjoy experiencing various options, all without the potential "uh oh" commitment. Sure, the learning curve won't be $free, but I bet it'll be worth every penny!

[5picker]

sudz... your dream wasn't really going to be a dream but rather a nightmare.

Your minivan just isn't the vehicle for what you are wanting to do.

Listen to the advice you've been given and come up with another plan.

You'll figure it out and be way happier in the end. And so will your wife!

[SuicideSaints]

I think you are thinking about this all wrong, please read up on weights and definitions (GCWR, GVWR, curb weight, payload) and gain an understanding how all this works together. Im not trying to be disrespectful in anyway but you keep mentioning "tow capacity" but this really means nothing.

You reference a Sante Fe or Sorento but these are going to be worse than your current setup...

Sorento = GVWR of 5400 (this is a 650 lb loss to what you have now) and the curb weight is 4200, so your left with 1200 lbs of payload..... you have 1500 now with the caravan

Sante Fe = GVWR is 5500 (this is a 500 lb loss to what you have now) and the Curb Weight 3997, so you are left with 1500 lbs of payload (this is what you currently have with the caravan).

Neither of these will improve your situation as a whole. Yes you will gain "towing capacity" in terms of being able to pull a heavier trailer but as you can see (I hope) this doesn't help your overall situation when you look at all the numbers (GVWR, GCWR, payload, CCCs, curb weight).

Please, Please, Please do a lot more research

[EDABEUT]

Instead of buying a new TT I would look for a nice used one. Then look for a nice used SUV or truck. You will probably want a bigger TT in the next 2 years anyway as many of us find out. They are never big enough and you will have a vehicle capable of the upgrade. Also you need to consider the $ you will lose on buying new. Don't buy a new one counting on the warranty to protect you. They are basically worthless unless you want to make payments while its at the dealer waiting to get repaired. It's all doable just maybe a little more digging to find a good deal.

[sudz]

Originally Posted by SuicideSaints

You reference a Sante Fe or Sorento but these are going to be worse than your current setup...

Sorento = GVWR of 5400 (this is a 650 lb loss to what you have now) and the curb weight is 4200, so your left with 1200 lbs of payload..... you have 1500 now with the caravan

Sante Fe = GVWR is 5500 (this is a 500 lb loss to what you have now) and the Curb Weight 3997, so you are left with 1500 lbs of payload (this is what you currently have with the caravan).



Please, Please, Please do a lot more research

Why are North American tow ratings so vastly different from the rest of the world?

Look at what UK is like: https://towcar.info/GB/index.php

A kia sorento with 400KG (900lb) payload in car, and a 3800lbs trailer (overloaded) and i'm well within spec for UK. And they only require 6% hitch weight. at 12% hitch weight the trailer would be much more stable.

They're crazy about Travel trailers there and thousands and thousands of people do it every weekend without issue. Forgive my ignorance, but Whats the difference?


EDIT: this is the article I read when I First started looking into getting a trailer (at the time to tow with my 2.4l accord)

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/tow-m...611/1609771499

[SuicideSaints]

Originally Posted by sudz

Why are North American tow ratings so vastly different from the rest of the world?

Look at what UK is like: https://towcar.info/GB/index.php

A kia sorento with 400KG (900lb) payload in car, and a 3800lbs trailer (overloaded) and i'm well within spec for UK. And they only require 6% hitch weight. at 12% hitch weight the trailer would be much more stable.

They're crazy about Travel trailers there and thousands and thousands of people do it every weekend without issue. Forgive my ignorance, but Whats the difference?

First of all this isnt a site that you should be using for true specs, if you want the true Uk specs go to the manufacturers UK website.

The sorento in the UK the GVWR is 2590 kg (5709 lbs) curb weight is 2082 kg (4590 lbs) this is still 1200 lbs of payload.

Kia Sorento Specifications & Features | Kia Motors UK

This is exactly the same as American models, so I am not sure why you are saying it is different? Or how you are figuring it is different?

The major difference is most UK models have diesel engines but looking at the manufacturers websites between the UK and America they look nearly identical once you convert KG to LBS.

There is no difference, they are over weight, over weight is over weight. You can tow over weight if you want, we already hashed it out, your caravan "can" do it on paper, there are tons of people towing overweight, it is just a decision one makes, if you want to do it go right ahead it makes no difference to me. I was just educating you on the facts and specs based on the manufacturers specifications. I referenced verified specs from the manufacturers, not blogs or "calculator" websites.

Again I mean no disrespect, Im just passing info to you and you can do what you want with it.