Surprises in a new T21TBHW - Saddlebrooke AZ

[RobertK]

After 25 years of RVing in everything from a conversion van to a Class C motorhome to fulltime RVing for 7 years in a 40' diesel pusher bus, we have finally purchased our FIRST pop-up trailer! So far, it has met or exceeded every expectation except one. Maybe others can learn from our experience.

I'm a retired engineer with a comprehensive knowledge of all aspects of vehicle weights and towing issues. The alphabet soup of GVWR, UVW, GAWR, CCC, GCWR, etc. that drives most people crazy is easy for me to understand. So when it came time for me to evaluate the towing capability of my 2003 Acura MDX, I thought I had it all figured out precisely... BUT I never realized there was a BIG (and expensive) surprise in our future.

As it is currently equipped, my Acura MDX is rated to tow 4500 pounds with a maximum tongue weight of 450 pounds. It seemed that towing a 3300 pound pop-up with a 306 pound tongue weight was well within the capability of my MDX. When we traveled from Tucson to Denver to pick up our new trailer, we took just a few camping essentials with us in our SUV to transfer to the new pop-up trailer. So the trailer was very lightly loaded when I went to the scales to have it weighed. The trailer axle weight was well under the max and GCWR was well within limits, but to my surprise, the tongue weight came in at 440 pounds, and the rear axle weight on the SUV was about 200 pounds OVER the maximum axle capacity (GAWR). So after adjusting the distribution of our load, we were able to get all weights under the maximum specs and then headed to our next destination and our next SURPRISE - a campground in the Rockies.

The Acura MDX has a very powerful V6 engine and did very well towing the trailer on the interstate highways. We were able to easily zip along at 65 to 70 mph without any trailer sway or towing issues. FYI Note: I upgraded the trailer tires from the standard 14" J Speed Rated tires (62 mph) load range C to 15" M Speed Rated (82 mph) load D range tires for an extra margin of safety. BUT when we made to turn to start the ascent up a modest mountain road, the Acura V6 really struggled. I had to shift to 1st gear and put the pedal to the metal to ascend at just a very modest pace. It became very obvious that this "powerful V6" was just not going to be able to tow this trailer in mountainous terrain without extreme difficulty.

So what started as our attempt to select a light-weight pop-up trailer well within the towing capacity of our Acura MDX has now transformed into the unexpected purchase of a Jeep Grand Cherokee with a 5.7L V8 and 7,200 pound towing capacity and 720 pound tongue weight maximum.

I can also envision the purchase of our first weight-distributing hitch and wonder if I should get one with mechanical sway control or get a new Dexter digital electronic sway control system. The Dexter Sway Control videos are most convincing and even though we have not yet experienced any sway issues, I'd rather take the safest approach and one that will eliminate any possibility of future sway issues. In my extensive research, I also found out that weight distributing hitches should NOT be used with any Jeep Grand Cherokee that has Active Air Suspension, as the hitch and Active Air Suspension will cause a continuous porpoise effect at highway speeds as the hitch and suspension fight against each other.

We love our new Flagstaff T21TBHW. Currently installing a new Wind Cheeta safety system to prevent potential wind damage during opening and closing the A-frame. We hope we love the towing capability of the Jeep when we get it. We hope our experience helps others considering a similar move.

Kindest Regards,

Robert K

[Terier]

Welcome to the forums. There can be some surprise elements with buying a RV for first time owners when it comes to matching the RV with the TV. Hopefully everything works out for you.

[SeaDog]

Welcome to the forum its a great place to get your questions answered and share your experience, from what you posted you are a very experienced RVer welcome

[jgourlie]

Welcome to the forum and congrats on your new trailer. Don't worry most of us have been through the need to upgrade our tow vehicle because it doesn't tow our trailer that well.

I would recommend getting a mechanical weight distribution hitch for your setup, even though your trailer is fairly light it will certainly help. I found it really helped when I was using a Jeep Grand Cherokee as a tow vehicle

[Brimare57]

OK, now I'm scared. I have a brand-new 2016 GMC Terrain that I plan to tow a Flagstaff T21TBHW with. I plan to order the brand-new Flagstaff at the beginning of August. The tongue weight is 306 pounds. The terrain has a tow capacity of 3500 pounds. The hitch can handle a 400 pound tongue weight. I do not plan to tow the Flagstaff in any mountainous areas. Does anyone think I need to exercise extra caution?

Fortunately, I am leasing this new Terrain. When the lease is up in two years, I plan on upgrading to the Acadia which has a larger tow capacity.

[Bluepill]

Interesting. My T12 hardside weighs in at 3000# as loaded for the road. That includes a generator on the front tongue and a motorcycle on the back. 2014 MDX with the GDI V-6
engine has no problem pulling it. Even though rated for 4500# tow weight, I would not want to try to pull over 3500. The independent rear suspension is just too mushy compared with a solid axle vehicle.

[Brimare57]

Thank you Bluepill. The unloaded vehicle weight of the T21TBHW is 2461#. That gives me just over 1000#'s for cargo and passengers. (There will be only one passenger). I definitely will not be exceeding the 3500# limit. I just don't like the idea of coming so close.
Happy camping good sir.

[rockfordroo]

Originally Posted by Brimare57

OK, now I'm scared. I have a brand-new 2016 GMC Terrain that I plan to tow a Flagstaff T21TBHW with. I plan to order the brand-new Flagstaff at the beginning of August. The tongue weight is 306 pounds. The terrain has a tow capacity of 3500 pounds. The hitch can handle a 400 pound tongue weight. I do not plan to tow the Flagstaff in any mountainous areas. Does anyone think I need to exercise extra caution?

Fortunately, I am leasing this new Terrain. When the lease is up in two years, I plan on upgrading to the Acadia which has a larger tow capacity.

You may not be aware, but the new Acadia's are downsizing from the current 3-row Lambdas (Acadia/Traverse/Enclave) to a 2-row that's 700 lbs lighter; it will no longer be a twin to the Traverse/Enclave. Unless you buy a used one (2016 or older), the new one will only have 4000 lb towing:

2017 Acadia Mid-Size SUV: Features & Specs | GMC

You'll have to get a Traverse or an Enclave.

I pulled my 2012 Roo 19, about 4100 lbs wet, with my Traverse (just DW and myself, no kids). I wasn't happy. The issue was the drag more than the weight. I am also in the Midwest - I never pulled any real grades. I would THINK it would do OK with what you've got, but.... who knows?

[Brimare57]

Originally Posted by rockfordroo

You may not be aware, but the new Acadia's are downsizing from the current 3-row Lambdas (Acadia/Traverse/Enclave) to a 2-row that's 700 lbs lighter; it will no longer be a twin to the Traverse/Enclave. Unless you buy a used one (2016 or older), the new one will only have 4000 lb towing:

2017 Acadia Mid-Size SUV: Features & Specs | GMC

You'll have to get a Traverse or an Enclave.

I pulled my 2012 Roo 19, about 4100 lbs wet, with my Traverse (just DW and myself, no kids). I wasn't happy. The issue was the drag more than the weight. I am also in the Midwest - I never pulled any real grades. I would THINK it would do OK with what you've got, but.... who knows?

rockfordroo,

Thank you for the info about the Acadia. I was not aware. I will have 1-1/2 yr to see how my Terrain does. Perhaps a WDH will be in order.

[RobertK]

Originally Posted by Brimare57

OK, now I'm scared. I have a brand-new 2016 GMC Terrain that I plan to tow a Flagstaff T21TBHW with. I plan to order the brand-new Flagstaff at the beginning of August. The tongue weight is 306 pounds. The terrain has a tow capacity of 3500 pounds. The hitch can handle a 400 pound tongue weight. I do not plan to tow the Flagstaff in any mountainous areas. Does anyone think I need to exercise extra caution?

Fortunately, I am leasing this new Terrain. When the lease is up in two years, I plan on upgrading to the Acadia which has a larger tow capacity.

Hello Brimare57;

Based on my personal experience, I think you'll have two issues to deal with when towing your T21TBHW with your GMC Terrain (and even a GMC Acadia).

First issue is tongue weight and rear GAWR (max rear axle carrying capacity). If you travel with a VERY light load in the front storage trunk of the T21TBHW, you may be REAL lucky and come in around 400 pounds of tongue weight. Remember, anything you carry in the trunk of your SUV also counts as tongue weight load on the tow vehicle too. When I weighed my T21TBHW, it was VERY lightly loaded. Now I have my normal camping gear in the front trunk which includes my gas grill, gas cook stove, two light aluminum lawn chairs, 25 plastic leveling blocks, a broom and dust pan, emergency safety triangles, and a small tool box with a few simple tools... not muc stuff and my tongue weight today is 553 pounds -- way over the 450 the Acura MDX can safely carry, but under the 720 the Jeep Grand Cherokee is rated to carry. I feel I'll be safe and within limits on the Cherokee. Anything you can carry in the REAR of the trailer will offset the tongue weight but increase your overall trailer weight. For example, if you travel with a full water tank, the water tank sits behind the trailer axle and will reduce your tongue weight, but increase your trailer weight and make climbing hills more difficult. If you can travel with less, just maybe you can squeak in at 400 pounds tongue weight. My rear axle on the Acura is rated at 2945, and I'll bet the Terrain and Acadia are rated similarly. My new Jeep Grand Cherokee has a 3700 pound rear axle capacity.

Second issue is towing 3500 pounds with a V6. My Acura MDX has a 3.5L V6 rated at 260hp and 250 ft-lbs of torque. According to Edmunds.com, the GMC Terrain has an inline 4 rated at 182hp and 172 Ft-lbs of torque. My Acura MDX did mostly OK on the interstate from Denver to Tucson, except when climbing the few small hills on the interstate in New Mexico around Socorro. I could keep up with traffic at 65mph most of the time, but those few small hills had my V6 shifting down from 5th to 3rd gear and only 50mph. That's struggling in my book. The Terrain with inline 4 would do much worse. And besides, Edmunds only rates the Terrain at 1500 pounds towing capacity. If you have an inline 4 cylinder Terrain, I think you're in big trouble trying to tow a T21TBHW.

Edmunds rates the GMC Acadia 3.6L V6 as 281hp and 266 ft-lbs of torque - just slightly better than my Acura MDX V6. I'd say the Acadia would be an acceptable tow vehicle if your towing on generally level or small rolling hills at highway speeds. Maintaining your engine rpm should give you sufficient power to tow in a state like Florida, but the V6 will definitely struggle in steeper terrain.

Hope all this helps you figure out what is right for you.

Bob

[Brimare57]

Originally Posted by RobertK

Hello Brimare57;

Based on my personal experience, I think you'll have two issues to deal with when towing your T21TBHW with your GMC Terrain (and even a GMC Acadia).

Hope all this helps you figure out what is right for you.

Bob

RobertK,

Thank you so much for making such a detailed response. The information you provided is extremely valuable. I do have a 6 cal Terrain, rated at 3500lb tow capacity.
Looks like I will be traveling with a very light load. I don't plan on towing the T21 on any trips that will require major incline driving or extreme mileage.

Thanks again and happy camping

[RobertK]

Originally Posted by Brimare57

RobertK,

Thank you so much for making such a detailed response. The information you provided is extremely valuable. I do have a 6 cal Terrain, rated at 3500lb tow capacity.
Looks like I will be traveling with a very light load. I don't plan on towing the T21 on any trips that will require major incline driving or extreme mileage.

Thanks again and happy camping

Dear Brimare57;

I'm glad you found the detailed technical information helpful. Question: Have you looked at your sticker on your door jamb of the Terrain to see what your rear axle maximum capacity is? I'd guess it is about 3000 pounds. With a V6 engine in your Terrain, you'll have sufficient power for towing on flatter terrain, but my biggest concern would be rear axle GAWR. Another option that can reduce tongue weight is adding a bike rack to the rear of the trailer. We did that and the extra 100# of bike weight on the rear of the trailer reduces the tongue weight by 100#. You can see the 2" x 2" receiver mount we use for our bike rack here... Rear Receiver for Flagstaff Camping Trailers | Roberts Sales - Denver, Colorado

Kindest Regards,

Robert