Electric Heat Without Furnace

[MR.M]

Originally Posted by nomad297

It is illegal in all states to resell electricity at a rate higher than what was charged to the seller by the utility company.

Bruce

only responding to the .20 KWH or the .17 in Colorado per KWH when i can't find anywhere in Co where the rate is .17 KWH . So they could be adding a base charge or passing on the base charge plus the KWH usage . some parks can add a extra fee to cover their time in billing separately but keep the KWH cost the same .

[JohnD10]

Originally Posted by MR.M

only responding to the .20 KWH or the .17 in Colorado per KWH when i can't find anywhere in Co where the rate is .17 KWH . So they could be adding a base charge or passing on the base charge plus the KWH usage . some parks can add a extra fee to cover their time in billing separately but keep the KWH cost the same .

It was the RV park charging that rate (.17 per kilo)...not Excel...

[rockfordroo]

Originally Posted by Chuck_S

Electric space heaters are very inefficient and consequently provide little heat. A 1500 watt space heater puts out the same heat ad a 1500 watt hand hair dryer. Even a little LP furnace will put out 3x or 4x the heat in the same amount of time.

I run our propane furnace and use an electric space heater to maintain the heat. It barely runs once everything is up to temperature and the furnace rarely runs after that.

I've been to a metered campground twice (same place). Pretty rare. I've been to a big Indiana state park where the power was out most of every day on a holiday weekend. All the big trailers with two air conditioners using all that "free (all you can eat) power" when they're not inside? I run my refrigerator on LP in the summer partly for this reason.

-- Chuck

An electric heater is 100% efficient as ALL the energy used (1500 watts = 5100 BTU's/hr) is turned into heat.

Your furnace is actually rather inefficient (probably less than 50%), because much of the heat from the propane is channeled outside the RV in form of hot combustion gases. But it puts out more "heat" simply because it's 3x or 4x bigger.

However, electricity costs more than LP gas on a BTU/hr basis.

So, you are confusing "efficient" with "price to operate" and "BTU/hr."

I think you meant to say electric heaters are "not the cheapest way to heat."

[MR.M]

Originally Posted by JohnD10

It was the RV park charging that rate (.17 per kilo)...not Excel...

So it seems that may or may not be legal based on another post .

[MR.M]

Originally Posted by rockfordroo

An electric heater is 100% efficient as ALL the energy used (1500 watts = 5100 BTU's/hr) is turned into heat.

Your furnace is actually rather inefficient (probably less than 50%), because much of the heat from the propane is channeled outside the RV in form of hot combustion gases. But it puts out more "heat" simply because it's 3x or 4x bigger.

However, electricity costs more than LP gas on a BTU/hr basis.

So, you are confusing "efficient" with "price to operate" and "BTU/hr."

I think you meant to say electric heaters are "not the cheapest way to heat."

At a 50% loss of efficiency for the propane furnaces in most rv's Electric would be cheaper . if there is indeed 50% loss, which i don't doubt

[JohnD10]

Originally Posted by MR.M

So it seems that may or may not be legal based on another post .

I would think that the RV parks would be able to charge whatever they want for the electricity.

Notice that many RV parks now have an electric meter on every pedestal.

And if they don't...most likely they will next time they upgrade the power posts!

It's coming...to an RV park or campground near you!

[Mr. Dan]

Originally Posted by JohnD10

I would think that the RV parks would be able to charge whatever they want for the electricity.

Notice that many RV parks now have an electric meter on every pedestal.

And if they don't...most likely they will next time they upgrade the power posts!

It's coming...to an RV park or campground near you!

Really.... many?
I spent 221 nights in multiple RV parks over the past 2 years and never saw a meter on any site I used.

[Jay2504]

After trying a propane space heater and not liking the smell, we have settled on using ceramic heaters when we have campground electric and the propane furnace when either on generator or boondocking. We get them for $6-9 at the end of the season at Walmart. On the low setting (750 watt) they seem to last forever but on high (1500 watt) the internal circuit breaker goes bad. When needed we use 2 on low at different places to even out the heat. Like Fella10, I have ran an extra outlet to the outer wall of the camper so we can plug in 2 cords at the power post. Really helps to n the summer so DW can blow dry her hair on her own circuit. Jay

[Chuck_S]

Hey Bruce --

Got a source for this?

It is illegal in all states to resell electricity at a rate higher than what was charged to the seller by the utility company.

I can only find UK references, not US.

-- Chuck

[Chuck_S]

I think you meant to say electric heaters are "not the cheapest way to heat."

The message really was electric heaters inefficiently heat spaces. It's because they're so small. As you note 5000 BTU (pulling 15 amps) is maybe what you get out of that hair dryer or space heater. My little furnace puts out about 19,000 BTU or about 3x to 4x the amount of heat in the same amount of time. 5000 BTU will barely take the chill out of the camper in the morning. Don't expect a space heater to make the trailer comfortable unless it runs for for a long time when starting from ambient temperature.

As for the efficiency of energy conversion to heat and expense... That same little furnace in my camper drinks a pound of LP fuel every hour of flame time so those little cylinders don't last forever. And at all you can eat campsites the electric is free.

We've camped and had snow. Furnace set to 65°, space heater set to 72°. Heater runs a lot but it's only working on those 7°, the furnace rarely runs once it's done its job of warming the interior.

-- Chuck

[PSU Turf]

I don't think it was mentioned in this thread but RV propane furnaces are extremely loud. That is why I use an electric space heater when camping in cold weather. I only run it on the 750 watt setting so I don't worry about the 14 gauge Romex wire heating up.

[MR.M]

Originally Posted by JohnD10

I would think that the RV parks would be able to charge whatever they want for the electricity.

Notice that many RV parks now have an electric meter on every pedestal.

And if they don't...most likely they will next time they upgrade the power posts!

It's coming...to an RV park or campground near you!

YES metered electric is the wave of the future . but mostly longer term stays .
They can not add on to the price they get charged based on laws . if they do they become an electric provider and have to follow a different set of rules . so if any park adds on to the KWH price it's not really legal . don't want to get into a debate here , but you can search it out if you wish . Been trying to stay neutral on this as it's a waste of time and unimportant to me

[RandK-M]

I forget who mentioned it, but a 1500 watt hair dyer and a heater are vastly different in temperature and heat output. To use an example of the difference between two similar wattage heat producing appliances, a 1500 watt hair dryer is lucky to push 130 or 140 degrees where 1500 watt heat gun on the other hand can put out 1200 degrees. Different purposes, different heat. Of course, BTUs are still the deciding factor and while much less than the RV furnace, a good ceramic or even infrared quartz will save propane and money if electric is included on a site already paid for.

[NJKris]

Rand, the only difference is really the concentration or focus of the heat. 1500 W of heat in an electric convection type of heating appliance (which those with a fan are) puts out 5100 BTU's of heat. In a closed system, the 1500 W hair dryer will put out the same heat as the 1500 W space heater, and heat the air in the closed system to the same degree. The temperature measured at the outlet of the heating device will vary depending on volume of air flow moving over heating element and the area of the heater air flow outlet.

[rockfordroo]

Originally Posted by NJKris

Rand, the only difference is really the concentration or focus of the heat. 1500 W of heat in an electric convection type of heating appliance (which those with a fan are) puts out 5100 BTU's of heat. In a closed system, the 1500 W hair dryer will put out the same heat as the 1500 W space heater, and heat the air in the closed system to the same degree. The temperature measured at the outlet of the heating device will vary depending on volume of air flow moving over heating element and the area of the heater air flow outlet.

Exactly! But in both cases, 4100 BTU's/hr will be put into the "space."

Originally Posted by MR.M

At a 50% loss of efficiency for the propane furnaces in most rv's Electric would be cheaper . if there is indeed 50% loss, which i don't doubt

Incorrect. Your statement would be true if you were paying the same price for a BTU of electricity and a BTU of LP gas. Unfortunately, the price/BTU isn't the same. Electric costs more, for a slew of reasons.

It's why most people don't want to heat their homes with electric if they can help it.

[nomad297]

Originally Posted by Chuck_S

Hey Bruce --

Got a source for this?I can only find UK references, not US.

-- Chuck

The only reason I know this is because I was party to a meeting with a Federal inspector, social workers, the property owner and many of the service providers for a Section 8 apartment building I did work in. Virginia Dominion Power had a representative there because one of the issues they were dealing with was the tenants claiming they were being overcharged for electricity. The inspector, the electrician and the power company representative were discussing the viability of installing sub meters for each unit. The topic of reselling electricity came up in this discussion. The power company representative mentioned that it was illegal in all states to resell publicly-provided electricity for a profit. The inspector agreed and said that this applied to all landlords — not just those providing Section 8 housing.

Bruce

EDIT: I should mention that this meeting took place in 2008. Maybe things have changed since then. And I’m sure my above statement wouldn’t hold up to Judge Judy’s sniff test and would be considered as hearsay.

[TheWolfPaq82]

We bought two small heaters when we got our Cherokee two years ago. These models, if you tip they shut off, if you pick them up by the handle...they shut off. There is a safety switch on the bottom that will only allow the heater to function if it's sitting upright on a hard surface.

[cavie]

Originally Posted by dward51

Question for those who have stayed at parks where they meter electricity, what is the rate?

And my original point is electric space heaters when used properly are just as "safe" as RV LP furnaces. Yes, there are the rare tragedy for either, and anything electrical (or LP for that matter) can have problems and start a fire (from lights to outlets), but I for one would think the potential for LP leakage and issues/dangers with anything LP would be greater than with a simple plug in space heater if used properly and with common sense.

As to efficiency, with most RV/TT having standard windows and even the double pane being marginal for energy efficiency, to argue a 1500 watt electric heater is wasting energy compared to a LP furnace is apples to kumquats IMO. If we were looking for max efficiency, none of us would own these things. It's the nature of the beast. Electric heat is convenient, and for a lot of us virtually cost free. So unless you are extreme 4 season camping it should be great.

That's like asking "How long is a piece of rope". Depends on where you are in the country and who is producing the electricity. Depends on if it's residential rate or commercial rate. Cost range from $.11 KWH to $.26 KWH.

[JohnD10]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dan

Really.... many?
I spent 221 nights in multiple RV parks over the past 2 years and never saw a meter on any site I used.

Yes...MANY!

Here are two of the many places I stayed at in 2018...take a look at the pedestals:

[Mr. Dan]

Originally Posted by JohnD10

Yes...MANY!

Here are two of the many places I stayed at in 2018...take a look at the pedestals:

OK, I guess 2 is “many”. You win.