Hard Start Capacitor

[ILUVRVing]

Originally Posted by SpringerPop

And once you DO find out, please post it back here for the future reference.

Pop

Will do...

[Maranatha]

I have been doing a lot of reading and while there are some that say a 2,000 watt Yamaha or Honda will not power their Cool Cat 10,000 BTU A/C, there are many more that say it will and up to 12,000 BTU without any issues. I guess I'll have to post back after I order my Yamaha 2,000 generator and take delivery of my hard side pop up.

A fan timer and a capacitor are relatively inexpensive mods and can't do anything but help reduce the initial surge.

By the way I keep seeing "DW" posted in the forums which appears to mean a wife but I can't figure out what the initials actually stand for. Maybe the next person that responds here can answer that.

[Md Jeff]

Originally Posted by rkswyo

From what I have read the capacity of the SPP6 is greater than the one that comes stock. Some AC's do not even come with them. Mine didn't. The SPP6 i bought came with very basic instructions. See my attachment for wiring details. There are multiple terminals in the locations shown and you just "piggyback" them.

Attach one side of the start cap to "C" and the other side to "herm" on the present capacitor, make sure you remove the existing "start circuit" (capacitor) if you have one, this diagram does. End result is the new cap will go between the "R" and "S" of the compressor

[Herk7769]

Short hand for:

Dear Wife/Husband
Darling Wife/Husband
Dat Wench/Wretch

etc...

Well you can use whatever two words you use that start with DW and apply to your particular copilot...

[Md Jeff]

Originally Posted by herk7769

Short hand for:

Dear Wife/Husband
Darling Wife/Husband
Dat Wench/Wretch

etc...

Well you can use whatever two words you use that start with DW and apply to your particular copilot...

When I became a member and read it in a few posts, the possible meanings seemed endless

[HVACretired]

ILUVRVing:

Looks like none of my comments got to you.
First comment:
You said that you turned the thermostat up to turn it off and back down within a minute. That in its self can create a problem because that short period of time does not allow the compressor to equalize. When the AC is running you have a 250 lbs. to 300 lbs. of pressure on the discharge side of the compressor and around 60 lbs. on the inlet side. As you can imagine the motor doesn’t like to start against a 5 or 6 to 1 ratio (it’s like trying to start a car in gear). That’s why the newer systems have a 5-minute time delay built into the system.
That being said if the pressures are equal and the voltage is correct you should not need a Hard Start Cap. I would check to make sure that the voltage is over 110 VAC when the AC is running (Check this at the AC unit in the ceiling). A hard start kit is a bandage for something that not correct with the compressor or the power supply feeding the compressor.
Along those lines a 2000-Watt compressor is probably NOT enough to run a 12,000 or 15,000 btu AC. There are a couple of reasons, 1- most 2000 watt Gens are only rated at 1800-Watt continuous duty (15 Amps 120 VAC). A 12,000 btu. Two, the AC that runs at 12 to 13 amps @ 120 VAC has a momentary start up current of 25 to 30 amps @ 120 VAC or 3000 t0 3600 Watts. Starting a motor is like pushing a car the first 10 feet is really hard but after you get it moving it’s not so bad. An electric motor is the same because the first few revolutions the motor will draw 2 to 2 ½ times the run load amps. That’s why I say the 2000-Watt Gen is really not adequate for a 12 mbtu. or 15 mbtu. AC even though the run load amps are less than what the max amps are on the Gen.
Now as for low voltage as the voltage goes down the amps go up. Work is a combination of volts and amps which = watts or work. Any motor or inductive component will suffer from this; a 10% decrease in voltage creates a 10% increase in amps. That’s what burns stuff up NOT the low voltage but the by-product of low voltage, which is high current (amps). Resistive components do not suffer for this problem only happens with inductive parts like motors & relay coils. But that’s not the end of the problem as the voltage goes down and current goes up the wire it's self heats up because of the high current and when that happens the resistance increase and the voltage drops even more.
So as you can see any voltage under 110 VAC will create problems serious problems, in most case low voltages cause more problems that high voltage because of the high current by-product.

[HVACretired]

Next NO Cooling after long run time, IF (key word IF) the compressor is still running you probably have a freeze up problem. Indoor coil freeze up, this is only caused by one thing LACK OF AIR FLOW ACROSS THE COIL when its over 75 degrees outside. This can manifest its self in several ways:
Fan failure
Dirty air filter
Impacted Evap coil (indoor coil). This is dirt in between the fins
Dirty Evap coil surface (indoor coil).
Inadequate ductwork (Not uncommon in an RV). Duct work to small.
Low Freon will not freeze up an Evap coil at normal operating temperatures. That being said if you are low on Freon your compressor will overheat and shut down after 5 to 30 minutes of run time depending on how low it is. THIS IS NOT COMMON and usually results in a burned out compressor in short order.
Now after all of that remember that on a hot day with sun shining in all of your big windows your AC probably will not be able to keep up. If it’s a scorcher keep the shaded drawn on the South side along with the East in the morning West in the afternoon.

[ILUVRVing]

Thanks for the AC, volt, amp class...
The prob then - it sounds like with mine is the STOCK run cap and/or start cap maybe/are going bad?
The AC had been running cool/ great while it's running, even in those mid 90 out in the middle of a sunny field days. It's when the AC reached the set T-stat temp (@ night) cycled off and when it tried to come back on later on when T-stat called for it, the AC would trip the 20amp AC coach breaker. Each time I had good voltage close to 120V (on dedicated 30amp service I had run @ my home when tested).... And yes I realize I cycle the AC too soon

And as Maranatha said "A fan timer and a capacitor are relatively inexpensive mods and can't do anything but help reduce the initial surge." - right?

[handbuilder]

While relatively inexpensive to install the capacitator, I took a good look at my warranty & since the trailer is brand new and covered by warranty - any changes to the wiring will invalidate the cool cat warranty ...so I will just have to wait it out....orrrr get a larger generator LOL

sigh...I do think the hard start capacitator would effectively help my Champion 20000 genny run the A-frame's cool cat system - but I'll just let another owner do it to theirs and wait for their findings....

[Maranatha]

HVAC RETIRED....

That was extremely well written... Thanks for the effort you put into that.
Two Thumbs UP...

[skipper194242]

i think it depends on how low on freon you are. r-22 at 57 psig will form ice, r-134 at 36 psig will form ice. it starts to form just past orfice reducing air flow and continues to spread dropping the psig fauther untill coilis blocked or compressor quits. i have seen the whole compressor form a ball of ice on it in some applications. rooftop units,residental,etc.

[Herk7769]

Bear with me guys as this is too good to lose.
I am going to pick through this and create a new thread.
It belongs in the FAQ as well.

[ILUVRVing]

HVACretired
Are you getting at least 5 minutes of off time.
It could also be the potential relay may be going bad (sticking). Caps
Are usually either bad or good no in between.
How often does this a
Happen?

HVAC RETIRED Thank you - Honestly I was sleeping when this would happen and would wake from the breaker tripping noise or causes it got hot. I woke up shut off the AC, reset the breaker wait a min and turn back on. It did try to come right back on after shut off (less than 5 min) a couple of times - it kicked on, shut down, and tried to come back on, less than a 5 min time, Other than that it would just run as expected.
What/where is this relay that may be or is going bad and how/where can I can a replacement ? I might as well swap that out as well...

[KyDan]

Originally Posted by handbuilder

While relatively inexpensive to install the capacitator, I took a good look at my warranty & since the trailer is brand new and covered by warranty - any changes to the wiring will invalidate the cool cat warranty ...so I will just have to wait it out....orrrr get a larger generator LOL

sigh...I do think the hard start capacitator would effectively help my Champion 20000 genny run the A-frame's cool cat system - but I'll just let another owner do it to theirs and wait for their findings....

I'm also very curious. My honda 2000 will start my AC on a mild day
at low altitude. On a mild day I don't need it.
I also wonder if the SPP6 would make it run OK on a hot day.
In reality, I have never really needed it. When we're at high altitude we've
always been able to sleep OK due to cooler temps. In hot weather we
just go places with electric hookups.

In your case, you don't actually change any wiring. You just piggy back
the capacitor in your AC. IF something else failed in warranty you
could remove it before going for service...... I'm not saying you should
but you could......

[VinceU]

Originally Posted by KyDan

I'm also very curious. My honda 2000 will start my AC on a mild day
at low altitude. On a mild day I don't need it.
I also wonder if the SPP6 would make it run OK on a hot day.
In reality, I have never really needed it. When we're at high altitude we've
always been able to sleep OK due to cooler temps. In hot weather we
just go places with electric hookups.

In your case, you don't actually change any wiring. You just piggy back
the capacitor in your AC. IF something else failed in warranty you
could remove it before going for service...... I'm not saying you should
but you could......

Believe part of your gen problem is air density. Warm air, or thin air has less ability to carry more fuel, thus less power ability. Your gen can produce suffcient output under normal (good) conditions, falls short otherwise.

Pro drag race teams used to pack ice on intake manifolds to cool combustion air, turbo chargers gas and Diesel use intercoolers for the same reason. High altitude drivers also make changes to compensate for less air. Sounds like your engine "just on the edge".

[KyDan]

I hear what you're saying but I'm "this close" to being able to run it now.
I'm not looking to run my AC on a generator so I'm just dreaming. If I needed
it to work, I'd definitely spend the $15 for the capacitor and give it a try.
There are enough online testimonials saying it did work that I think it's a
good gamble.

OTOH, I don't like to listen to motors running. Even "quiet" hondas are loud
enough in a quiet campground to be heard several sites away.
My honda is for battery charging when needed.

On the off chance we had a lengthy power outage at home I have a
honking loud 5.5Kw that will run most things in my house.
It won't start my home central AC but it would easily power the roof AC
in my trailer if we absolutely had to have it.
In times past we used it to power the house including fridge and freezer and
TV and whole house exhaust fan.
With the exhaust fan we can get by without the AC.

[ILUVRVing]

Originally Posted by SpringerPop

And once you DO find out, please post it back here for the future reference.

Pop

Originally Posted by ILUVRVing

Will do...

OK so after speaking with HVACretired off line and sent him pic’s – My issue seems to be:

HVACretired:
Replace the Start Cap and PTCR (potential relay) always replace both at the same time. The run cap should be good.
HVACretired:
Yep it's the black one and the device attached to it like I said on the phone.
ILUVRVing:
Ok so I got the SSP6 in the mail that I had ordered from earlier in the week, thinking that would help/fix my prob - from reading the forums.
Can I replace the start cap (the black one ) with the SSP6 and how/where do I get the PTCR (potential relay) (the device attached to the black one).....?
HVACretired:
The SPP6 will replace both Items the top25% of the spp6 is a solid state potential relay. Hook the SPP6 to the red and white wires after you remove the old parts.
ILUVRVing:
HVAC, Awesome, you’re the best - I'll try that -either tomorrow after work or Sat, plus giving everything a good cleaning (as per the cleaning guide found here).... Once again thank you sooo much. I'll let you know the outcome.

Note: I assume, if the run cap were bad, you should be able to get a replacement Run Cap with the info off of the stock one and the make/model of AC, you should be able to get a replacement...
Also, others have mentioned a concern about changing the cap(s), ect. While under warranty. In my case, since I’m way over the 3yr Dometic warranty and need to replace the Start Cap and PTCR (potential relay) anyway, it’s not an issue to replace with the Supco Mfg. - SPP6 - Hard Start Capacitor, as well as add the fan timer.
Hope this help’s yall….
I'm working on resizing the pic's - I'll post them next/soon.

[ILUVRVing]

Here are the pic's

[ILUVRVing]

This is what HVACretired pointed for me to replace and my AC make/model and T-stat

[ILUVRVing]

Thanks for everything. I did the start cap and the fan delay mod, as well as cleaned, straighten any bent fins and resealed everything. I also notice water collect @ the back of the bottom of the pan, so I drilled some drain holes to allow any remaining water to drain. (My AC is @ an upward angle being on a 5er).
The AC starts & runs great - no issues. I notice less of a draw/easy starting. NO tripping breaker, yeah !
And boy was F1100turbo right about being sensitive to set the time delay mod on the low end. I can either get 5 sec delay or 30+ sec delay. Each time I try to make a change I wait 5 -15 minutes minimum. It's so touchy, I was trying to shoot for 10 sec delay. I'll just have to keep playing with it, then tape it up good so it doesn't move/turn...
Thanks again everyone...