Why solar is pretty much useless...

[spock123]

I plan to install solar next year and I plan to have six six volt batteries, so I can run my microwave and tv.


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[Bearister]

I certainly envy ur plan. U might want to spend some time sizing ur needs. 4 six volts are most people's Cadillac but 6 are / well just special. I'm not questioning u but would be interested in how u arrived at 6 being required. U are are the right place as we are all learning. All the best !

Bear

[spock123]

I have four cheap six volt batteries that came with the camper plus I have four Trojans hooked up to a 3,000 watt inverter for the microwave and tv. Right now they get charged up on shore power and generator. But solar power is coming, just don't have the money to do everything at one time. Right now I'm buying a washer/dryer stackable unit plus a Direct TV satellite dish to be installed on top of camper. But next year and then solar. I plan to get rid of the four cheap batteries that run my residential refrigerator and install the Trojans there and then put in six new Trojans for my inverter. I would like to install a pure sine wave inverter, a 2,000 watt is expensive but you can't take it with you when you go


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[Skyliner]

Nothing wrong with using 6 batteries in your system. The less you draw the batteries down, the longer they will last.

I have six batteries in 3 separate battery banks on my RV with 400 watts of solar panels for a total of about 650 amp-hours. We use quite a bit of the microwave and lots of TV at night (TV and DVD player), heater runs all night even in the summer, and we use about 15% of our battery capacity according to our trimetric. The worst we saw was about 50% usage because someone forgot to put the fridge on propane only.

Will be putting on another 300 watts of panels next year so we can have faster charging to 100%.

PS: We camp in the Colorado mountains. Temps got down to the low 40's at night and it was a welcome relief compared to the 90 temps in the city.

[2014 sierra]

Hey everyone,


I thought I was done doing the research for my solar system, but I guess I will always be reading about others to get a better handle on it.


So this is the set up I am planning on installing by Jan 2017.


Attachment 125383

Solar Extreme Charging System
Live Off-Grid in Style

This system will produce enough power to run up to 3000 watts of appliances or electronics while simultaneously, depending on your exposure to the sun, topping up your battery bank at a rate of 27 amps per hour.
Everything You Need in One Package

System includes solar panels, pure sine wave inverter with remote, solar controller, cables, and mounting parts—everything you need to install and run this exceptional solar system.
Reliability You Can Count On

Our products are tested and produced with quality components and backed by industry-leading warranties. Go Power! has been supplying mobile power solutions for 20 years.
System Contents

• 3 x 160 watt solar modules (each module being 7 amps I will most likely add 1 more, not to exceed the limit of the 30 amp controller)
• 3000 watt pure sine wave inverter
• 30 amp PWM solar controller
• 75 amp smart battery charger (I am going to upgrade this to the 100 amp)
• 30 amp pre-wired transfer switch
• DC inverter fuse & cable install kit
• Inverter remote
• 50' of MC4 output cable
• Mounting hardware

Attachment 125384

• The tilting kit looks simple enough, good for not only trying to soak in more sun but also getting the panels out of the way to clean the roof
  
  Attachment 125385
• Seeing how my 2014 sierra did not come with a cable entry box already attached to the roof and my refrigerator vent is in a slide out , I got to get one of these guys.
  
  Attachment 125386
• Surge guard, even though I have surge protection on my entertainment center, I thing after I hook up the switch box I will connect this baby between the switch box out -and the circuit panel.
  
  Attachment 125387
• I kind of mapped everything out where I plan to install it. I have done this twice already, 1rst time where I initially wanted to put it, then this time after measuring twice and comparing the dimensions of all the components.
  
  Attachment 125388

This is my idea of where I am going to store my 8 each Trojan 6 V DC batteries. I have to fabricate everything except the batteries and slide rails.

so I hope I did my math right, I was reading a comment that was left on the 3000W inverter, basically this person said it was great an could ron his washing machine and drier, microwave, TV computer and a couple other things for 5 hours before his batteries drop below 12 VDC. his battery pack he said is 425 ah, so with my 8 6 VDC batteries each rated at 20-hr rate of 225 should mean that my battery pack would be rated at 1800 ah? does this sound right?

T-105 RE Deep-Cycle Flooded

Battery Specification

@25 Amps 447

@75 Amps 115

5-Hr Rate 185

10-Hr Rate 207

20-Hr Rate 225

100-Hr Rate 250

1.50 Length 10.30 (262)

Width 7.11 (181)

Height 11.67 (296)

Capacity Minutes Capacity Amp-Hours Energy (kWh) Dimensions inches (mm) Weight lbs. (kg)

67 (30)

Please Feel free to let me know if I am forgetting anything or can make any changes for improvements. Measure 100 times and cut once.......currently this set-up is coming in at Approx. 676 lbs. after adding in the rest of the fabricated materials I would guess to say around 700 lbs. of which all of it is in front of the axles and adding to the weight on the truck bed. and to think a new onan 5.5 kw lp generator only weighs 279 lbs. hmmmmm.....

solar = approx. $3700.00

battery pack $1100.00

fabrication materials $1000

Total Soar System $4900.00

Cummins Onan QG 5.5 Propane RV Generator | 5.5HGJAB-1270

$3908.00

$1000.00 cheaper and 421 lbs lighter to just get the generator, could someone please remind me why go solar? (other than just going green)

[Bluepill]

Originally Posted by 2014 sierra

his battery pack he said is 425 ah, so with my 8 6 VDC batteries each rated at 20-hr rate of 225 should mean that my battery pack would be rated at 1800 ah? does this sound right?

It is 900 amp hours at 12 volts. Putting two 6 volt batteries in series doubles the voltage but not the amp hours.

It is recommended not to discharge batteries below 50% of their capacity, so you end up with 450 usable amp hours in an eight battery bank.

As far as a claim to use a washer and dryer and microwave, etc. I would say one small load of clothes in a small top loader, followed by using a gas dryer. Maybe a use of 1 hour total. That would use about 120 amp hours. Then the microwave for maybe 30 minutes. That's about another 90AH. It goes really fast.

Easy to calculate the numbers. 1 amp at 120 volts requires about 12 amps at 12 volts. That's the 1 to 10 voltage increase and another 20% for conversion losses in the inverter. Example:

Microwave is rated at 15 amps @ 120 volts AC. That requires 180 amps of 12 volt battery power. Use it for an hour and you consume 180 amp. hours.

[Bluepill]

Here may be the ultimate "Solar" ripoff:

Goal Zero Yeti 1250 Solar Generator | Power Packs | Goal Zero

OK, let's see. For $1600 bucks you get a 100 AH AGM battery worth $230. A PSW inverter worth $170. A Mppt charge controller worth $70.

AND SOLAR PANELS ARE NOT INCLUDED.

So $470 bucks worth of components that anyone can assemble. I guess that makes the fancy case and an LCD readout worth $1130.

And they claim "12 to 24 hours" runtime for a residential fridge. My Samsung 25 CuFt fridge uses 2 KWH a day, which means the Yeti would give me a whooping 7 hours runtime before I reach 50% capacity of a 100 AH battery.


Of course, this comes from a company that charges $300 for a 35 quart ice chest.


Man, I am in the wrong business.

[2014 sierra]

Originally Posted by Bluepill

It is 900 amp hours at 12 volts. Putting two 6 volt batteries in series doubles the voltage but not the amp hours.

It is recommended not to discharge batteries below 50% of their capacity, so you end up with 450 usable amp hours in an eight battery bank.

As far as a claim to use a washer and dryer and microwave, etc. I would say one small load of clothes in a small top loader, followed by using a gas dryer. Maybe a use of 1 hour total. That would use about 120 amp hours. Then the microwave for maybe 30 minutes. That's about another 90AH. It goes really fast.

Easy to calculate the numbers. 1 amp at 120 volts requires about 12 amps at 12 volts. That's the 1 to 10 voltage increase and another 20% for conversion losses in the inverter. Example:

Microwave is rated at 15 amps @ 120 volts AC. That requires 180 amps of 12 volt battery power. Use it for an hour and you consume 180 amp. hours.

Thank you, that does sound a bit more realistic.
ok, 900 amps, that's double what this other person had. so during the day with the quick rate of recharging, I should not have any issues, heck maybe 1 - 15k air conditioner might work also?

if you are saying I would HAVE 900 amps but only 450 usable amps. your also saying the guy I talked about who had 425 amps only had 212.5 usable amps? because I can only use half this means I should be starting with 24 vdc because I can only let them drop to 12 vdc? I think I am a little confused, last I remembered volts and amps are to different animals ( a new battery is rated ??? amps @ 12 VDC.) SO HOW AM I ABLE TO USE ANY AMPS IF I CAN'T LET THE BATTERIES DROP BELOW 12 VDC? I BELIEVE BATTERIES START LOOSING AMPS AS THE VOLTAGE DROPS, I ALSO THINK YOU CAN GO TO ABOUT 10.5 VDC BEFORE THEY DIE.....So only having 450 usable amps. is questionable. Please explain a bit more clearly. Now I am going to have to get out my fluke and refresh memory..... I think solar batteries are like car batteries, you use the batteries for starting and operating and they maintain the full charge due to the alternator, solar is the same (during the day) right? you use your stuff during the day and the solar system keeps the batteries charged. the only time to be concerned is at night right?

[Bearister]

I'm pleased that I have installed the solar. I will be adding another panel. I'm not sure at the end of day that it is a financial winner but it does provide for some flexibility while traveling as U can stop for a day or two without hook up having creature comforts. I agree with comments that prior thought and planning are important.

Bear

[WolfWhistle]

2014 S, you should probably start a new thread. Hijacking mat cause some who unsubscribed to not see and comment. I will comment when I get time to digest what you wrote. I see issues and have more questions for you. WW

[spock123]

Originally Posted by 2014 sierra

Hey everyone,


I thought I was done doing the research for my solar system, but I guess I will always be reading about others to get a better handle on it.


So this is the set up I am planning on installing by Jan 2017.


Attachment 125383

Solar Extreme Charging System
Live Off-Grid in Style

This system will produce enough power to run up to 3000 watts of appliances or electronics while simultaneously, depending on your exposure to the sun, topping up your battery bank at a rate of 27 amps per hour.
Everything You Need in One Package

System includes solar panels, pure sine wave inverter with remote, solar controller, cables, and mounting parts—everything you need to install and run this exceptional solar system.
Reliability You Can Count On

Our products are tested and produced with quality components and backed by industry-leading warranties. Go Power! has been supplying mobile power solutions for 20 years.
System Contents

• 3 x 160 watt solar modules (each module being 7 amps I will most likely add 1 more, not to exceed the limit of the 30 amp controller)
• 3000 watt pure sine wave inverter
• 30 amp PWM solar controller
• 75 amp smart battery charger (I am going to upgrade this to the 100 amp)
• 30 amp pre-wired transfer switch
• DC inverter fuse & cable install kit
• Inverter remote
• 50' of MC4 output cable
• Mounting hardware

Attachment 125384

• The tilting kit looks simple enough, good for not only trying to soak in more sun but also getting the panels out of the way to clean the roof
  
  Attachment 125385
• Seeing how my 2014 sierra did not come with a cable entry box already attached to the roof and my refrigerator vent is in a slide out , I got to get one of these guys.
  
  Attachment 125386
• Surge guard, even though I have surge protection on my entertainment center, I thing after I hook up the switch box I will connect this baby between the switch box out -and the circuit panel.
  
  Attachment 125387
• I kind of mapped everything out where I plan to install it. I have done this twice already, 1rst time where I initially wanted to put it, then this time after measuring twice and comparing the dimensions of all the components.
  
  Attachment 125388

This is my idea of where I am going to store my 8 each Trojan 6 V DC batteries. I have to fabricate everything except the batteries and slide rails.

so I hope I did my math right, I was reading a comment that was left on the 3000W inverter, basically this person said it was great an could ron his washing machine and drier, microwave, TV computer and a couple other things for 5 hours before his batteries drop below 12 VDC. his battery pack he said is 425 ah, so with my 8 6 VDC batteries each rated at 20-hr rate of 225 should mean that my battery pack would be rated at 1800 ah? does this sound right?

T-105 RE Deep-Cycle Flooded

Battery Specification

@25 Amps 447

@75 Amps 115

5-Hr Rate 185

10-Hr Rate 207

20-Hr Rate 225

100-Hr Rate 250

1.50 Length 10.30 (262)

Width 7.11 (181)

Height 11.67 (296)

Capacity Minutes Capacity Amp-Hours Energy (kWh) Dimensions inches (mm) Weight lbs. (kg)

67 (30)

Please Feel free to let me know if I am forgetting anything or can make any changes for improvements. Measure 100 times and cut once.......currently this set-up is coming in at Approx. 676 lbs. after adding in the rest of the fabricated materials I would guess to say around 700 lbs. of which all of it is in front of the axles and adding to the weight on the truck bed. and to think a new onan 5.5 kw lp generator only weighs 279 lbs. hmmmmm.....

solar = approx. $3700.00

battery pack $1100.00

fabrication materials $1000

Total Soar System $4900.00

Cummins Onan QG 5.5 Propane RV Generator | 5.5HGJAB-1270

$3908.00

$1000.00 cheaper and 421 lbs lighter to just get the generator, could someone please remind me why go solar? (other than just going green)

You know sometimes when we buy something we know going in we will never get our money back. I spent $2,000 bucks on a Trav'ler satellite dish antenna, no way I'll get my money back. I spent almost $10,000 bucks extra on my diesel engine , no way I get that back. I want to add solar to my camper for convenience, will I get back what it cost, one word, NO.


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[Bluepill]

Originally Posted by 2014 sierra

because I can only use half this means I should be starting with 24 vdc because I can only let them drop to 12 vdc? I think I am a little confused, last I remembered volts and amps are to different animals ( a new battery is rated ??? amps @ 12 VDC.) SO HOW AM I ABLE TO USE ANY AMPS IF I CAN'T LET THE BATTERIES DROP BELOW 12 VDC? I BELIEVE BATTERIES START LOOSING AMPS AS THE VOLTAGE DROPS, I ALSO THINK YOU CAN GO TO ABOUT 10.5 VDC BEFORE THEY DIE.....So only having 450 usable amps. is questionable. Please explain a bit more clearly

OK. Let's start with the 6 VOLT batteries you mentioned. To get 12 volts from them you need to put EACH PAIR in series. Then you connect the 4 PAIRS in parallel. Good diagram and explainer here:

The 12volt Side of Life (Part 1)


Hopefully this will show you what's going on.

You never have 24 volts. You just have a large effective 12 volt bank of batteries. It reacts electrically just like one large 12 volt battery. As with a single 12 volt battery, you will start out fully charged (100 percent State of Charge) at about 12.6 to 12.8 volts. When you drop down to about 12.0 volts due to usage, you will be at 50% State of Charge. The exact voltages vary with the particular type of battery, internal battery temperature, as well as the age. Always refer to the specific manufacturer's data.

Link to Trojan T-105 Data sheet:

http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/dat...ata_Sheets.pdf

Note that the state of charge table is for a single 6 volt battery. When set up to deliver 12 volts, double the voltage reading. i.e. 100% SoC is 6.37 X 2 = 12.74 volts.

[WolfWhistle]

2014 S,

I can't open any of your attachments.

Solar isn't for everyone. If a generator can work for you in your situation and the way you camp, maybe that is the way to go. Keep in mind many parks have restriction on the hours you can run one... not to mention running one can be annoying to your neighbors. Even with a generator, solar is an excellent way to top off the batteries.

Like you realized those batteries on the tongue is a lot of weight. If you have unlimited funds you could go with lithium iron phosphate LFP batteries which are very light, but quite expensive, but offer many other advantages other than, being lighter.

http://www.technomadia.com/lithium/

I would like to tell you what I have and why.

I have three 150 watt Renogy panels that produce (the most I have read) 24 amps in full sun. I have a SC-2030 Trimetric / Bogart PWM 30 amp charger / controller (CC) and their TM-2030 monitor; that should be considered a necessity. If I added another panel, I could exceed the 30 amps, but my CC will handle more by limiting the current. But, you can have more than one CC.

I have four 230AH (20 hour) GC-2 deep cycle batteries (FLA) cabled and strapped to produce 460 AH of 12 vdc (230AH usable).


There is a rule of thumb... that if you have 460 AH of battery, about 460 watts of solar panel will be about right. The idea is that most people don't need more battery than can be recharged in a nice sunny day.

Next, I have a 2000 watt Magnum inverter / charger and their remote monitor. I think it is one of the best. It can handle around 2400 watts for quite a while and can charge 100 amp rate when connected to generator or shore power. I only use the genny (a 2000w Honda) to power the inverter for charging. The beauty is that solar tops them off ... completes the charging ... without listening to, smelling, or paying for gasoline.

I have operated my fridge on 120 vac, via the Magnum while traveling, if the sun is good ... can easily run the microwave to warm things up as needed; a hair dryer or a curling iron. With fridge and WH on gas, I can watch TV all I want to, enjoy my Keurig in the morning every day for several days even with overcast skies.

What kills most installations is too small wire gauge for the length of the runs. Now, my CC will compensate for distance from CC to batteries, so you can mount it where ever you want to.

My battery cables are all #4/0 and PV array to CC and to batteries start of #10 then to #6 to combiner then #4 to the CC. My voltage drop is less than 1% from inverter to batteries and less than 3% from PV to batteries, which is what the manufacturers recommend.

Be careful so that no shadows fall on any part of a panel. If you lay a playing card on a panel, it is effectively shut off. If you have panels in series, that will nearly kill the output for the whole string.

Again, this is what I did, but your situation could be much different.

If I had a 50 amp rig, I would consider a Magnum hybrid inverter. When on 30 amp shore power the inverter can make up part of the difference by using the batteries.

If you want to learn about solar. Here's a link to a grumpy old man, but a smart one. WW

https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/

[bikendan]

We feel solar is pretty much not worth the costs, for us, because we prefer treed and forested campgrounds.

[2014 sierra]

Originally Posted by WolfWhistle

2014 S,

I can't open any of your attachments.

Solar isn't for everyone. If a generator can work for you in your situation and the way you camp, maybe that is the way to go. Keep in mind many parks have restriction on the hours you can run one... not to mention running one can be annoying to your neighbors. Even with a generator, solar is an excellent way to top off the batteries.

Like you realized those batteries on the tongue is a lot of weight. If you have unlimited funds you could go with lithium iron phosphate LFP batteries which are very light, but quite expensive, but offer many other advantages other than, being lighter.

Lithium Ion Batteries for RV Motorhome House System - LFP / LiFePO4 | Technomadia

I would like to tell you what I have and why.

I have three 150 watt Renogy panels that produce (the most I have read) 24 amps in full sun. I have a SC-2030 Trimetric / Bogart PWM 30 amp charger / controller (CC) and their TM-2030 monitor; that should be considered a necessity. If I added another panel, I could exceed the 30 amps, but my CC will handle more by limiting the current. But, you can have more than one CC.

I have four 230AH (20 hour) GC-2 deep cycle batteries (FLA) cabled and strapped to produce 460 AH of 12 vdc (230AH usable).


There is a rule of thumb... that if you have 460 AH of battery, about 460 watts of solar panel will be about right. The idea is that most people don't need more battery than can be recharged in a nice sunny day.

Next, I have a 2000 watt Magnum inverter / charger and their remote monitor. I think it is one of the best. It can handle around 2400 watts for quite a while and can charge 100 amp rate when connected to generator or shore power. I only use the genny (a 2000w Honda) to power the inverter for charging. The beauty is that solar tops them off ... completes the charging ... without listening to, smelling, or paying for gasoline.

I have operated my fridge on 120 vac, via the Magnum while traveling, if the sun is good ... can easily run the microwave to warm things up as needed; a hair dryer or a curling iron. With fridge and WH on gas, I can watch TV all I want to, enjoy my Keurig in the morning every day for several days even with overcast skies.

What kills most installations is too small wire gauge for the length of the runs. Now, my CC will compensate for distance from CC to batteries, so you can mount it where ever you want to.

My battery cables are all #4/0 and PV array to CC and to batteries start of #10 then to #6 to combiner then #4 to the CC. My voltage drop is less than 1% from inverter to batteries and less than 3% from PV to batteries, which is what the manufacturers recommend.

Be careful so that no shadows fall on any part of a panel. If you lay a playing card on a panel, it is effectively shut off. If you have panels in series, that will nearly kill the output for the whole string.

Again, this is what I did, but your situation could be much different.

If I had a 50 amp rig, I would consider a Magnum hybrid inverter. When on 30 amp shore power the inverter can make up part of the difference by using the batteries.

If you want to learn about solar. Here's a link to a grumpy old man, but a smart one. WW

https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/

Thank you for your insight, do to not having unlimited funds, I guess those L.I.P. Batteries won't be getting installed on this rig any time soon. I have come up with an idea to try to equalize the overall weight with this install by moving the batteries behind the rear axle. this should help offset the new generator I install later.

With me it's a lifestyle, I love camping so much that we have become full timers. well aware of being good neighbors, and many park reg.'s. I originally wanted to go solar for three reasons;
1- because it is nearly free energy, over my lifetime that can save a lot in fuel for the generator. (PAY FOR ITS SELF ?)
2-its QUIET
3- should have to worry about dead batteries.

I think I have to take a step back sometimes and re-evaluate my situation on alternate power sources, I really like what I have come up with so far. i'll attach a picture or 2









this is where I am at now.

[2014 sierra]

Originally Posted by bikendan

We feel solar is pretty much not worth the costs, for us, because we prefer treed and forested campgrounds.

We also love camping in the forested areas, especially up in the sierra/Nevada mountains, Lake Tahoe and like that. We also enjoy camping at the beach and even sometimes in the desert. this is why I am trying to be prepared for the environment I am in. if I can go to the beach or desert and save a few bucks on lp gas because I am using solar energy that works for me. I guess if I only brought my RV out once in a while to go "camping" I probably wouldn't be that entrested to putting that kind of money into it either. since I full time, this is my "HOME" and I want it to be as efficient and comfortable as possible.

[spock123]

2014 sierra

Is that how you plan to install the batteries? I want to move my batteries from the front on my Cedar Creek to the rear. I can't service my batteries where they are located at now.


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[2014 sierra]

Originally Posted by spock123

2014 sierra

Is that how you plan to install the batteries? I want to move my batteries from the front on my Cedar Creek to the rear. I can't service my batteries where they are located at now.


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Yes, this is my newest plan. due to there weight (combined 463) I think it was to much to add to my truck axles, so I needed to shift it behind the trailer axles to help counter balance the new generator I will be installing in the front.

with enough searching on the internet, this was the box I found to closest meet the dimensions I need to accommodate this project. the batteries will be secured down and enclosed behind a door. the picture is merely a mock up to generalize the idea. I will have to add a taillight on the left side do to the box blocking the factory taillight. I also am going to fabricate a second bumper to extend out approx. 8" and attach it to the factory bumper. then I will mount the box on both bumpers. this will supply additional support and protection from the rear again.

as far as battery servicing goes, I thought this box fit that bill perfectly. It provides easy access to all the batteries, with the door being slightly tilted back when opened it allows more access to the top of the batteries. I also like the drawers right there for a place to store your servicing tools and a few electrical supplies.

My only concern was the direct sunlight beating down on that diamond plate box causing a lot of heat, apparently, no one seems to think that's a problem.

[rockfordroo]

Originally Posted by 2014 sierra

Thank you for your insight, do to not having unlimited funds, I guess those L.I.P. Batteries won't be getting installed on this rig any time soon. I have come up with an idea to try to equalize the overall weight with this install by moving the batteries behind the rear axle. this should help offset the new generator I install later.

With me it's a lifestyle, I love camping so much that we have become full timers. well aware of being good neighbors, and many park reg.'s. I originally wanted to go solar for three reasons;
1- because it is nearly free energy, over my lifetime that can save a lot in fuel for the generator. (PAY FOR ITS SELF ?)
2-its QUIET
3- should have to worry about dead batteries.

I think I have to take a step back sometimes and re-evaluate my situation on alternate power sources,

You've just stated the problem with solar. Although it's gotten cheaper, it's still not anything close to "free."

There are only 2 real reasons for solar:
1. You're going to be boondocking a LOT
2. You're really into "the environment." (But the cradle-to-grave impact of millions of these solar systems is really not very well understood, yet. Lots of gallium, arsenic, and other heavy metals in these solar panels. So who knows how "environmentally friendly" they'll appear in 20 or 30 years?)

[2014 sierra]

Originally Posted by rockfordroo

You've just stated the problem with solar. Although it's gotten cheaper, it's still not anything close to "free."

There are only 2 real reasons for solar:
1. You're going to be boondocking a LOT
2. You're really into "the environment." (But the cradle-to-grave impact of millions of these solar systems is really not very well understood, yet. Lots of gallium, arsenic, and other heavy metals in these solar panels. So who knows how "environmentally friendly" they'll appear in 20 or 30 years?)

I 'm not sure I understand " you have just started the problem" statement. as far as free goes I did say "nearly free" not free
and this I agree with you on, everything that has been told to us thru advertisements has been wrong 20 to 30 years later. what we should and shouldn't .....changes all the time. so for now we just do what works for us today. and yes I am into the environment (love camping and the outdoors).....

and yes, I do plan on doing a lot of camping where there is no shore power to hook up to. and I want to run the lp generator as little as possible.

this is why I am doing so much homework to try to get the right system and do my best to distribute the weight of it on the RV as even as possible, making sure not to over load the truck or trailer axles. yet, getting some thing strong enough the first time, so I can "set it and forget it" I am trying to do what I can today to make our lives easier tomorrow.