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Old 12-17-2016, 06:22 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by KatanaPilot View Post
I wonder how many customers are surveyed immediately after the sale, after any warranty work and a year or so after purchase? I know I have never been surveyed by either FR or the one service center I went to for "warranty service".

If they had bothered to survey me, they would have gotten an earful.

I don't think FR wants to know and their measurement methodology is poor at best. When you are selling everything you push out the door, you appear to pushback on warranty claims and many of us fix defects ourselves to avoid dealing with the incompetent dealers and frustrations of FR - then it seems to me you (as a company) really have no idea how good or bad your products are. Recalls may be one of several metrics but not necessarily an accurate one as to consumer satisfaction or quality.

And with some folks willing to defend the manufacturers irrespective of their experience, it's no wonder that there is little to no improvement in real quality of the units produced.

My airline routinely surveys customers and they even survey employees when we travel as passengers. They may not always like the responses, but at least they bother to ask the questions.
I don't think there is or in this specific instance, any sampling done. The reporter simply counted the number of recalls. Period. There was nothing scientific about it and the reader is left to draw their own conclusion of the presented data.

If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs and one of them yelps, you probably hit something.

Funny thing is that this is not even a discussion on the Keystone forum.
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Old 12-19-2016, 03:12 AM   #102
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The NHTSA only requires a company to institute a recall for issues that are safety related or something that is in violation of a federal standard or some code.

When it comes to a fading front cap, water tanks that drain out the vent hose while traveling, Fridges that won't cool properly, spongy floors, and a whole host of repetitive issues that you read about on these boards the NHTSA is not going to require a recall. That would be up to the manufacturer and we all know how many they call on their own, a big fat 0.

You also have no way of knowing how many issues that should have a safety recall slip through the cracks such as the recent rash of water tanks that either sag or fall out. The manufacturer knows about it but chooses to look the other way evidently.

I love these threads where a certain percentage of people bury their head in the sand and defend the manufacturer to no end by coming up with some comment to justify lack of QC.
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Old 12-19-2016, 05:35 AM   #103
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"I love these threads where a certain percentage of people bury their head in the sand and defend the manufacturer to no end by coming up with some comment to justify lack of QC."

Me too!!!

We know that we are pretty smart people. It is obvious to us that the lack of QC is unnecessary and that it has to be either lazy workers on the line, greedy owners, designers who never lived in an RV, and buyers with too much credit and not enough time on their hands to figure out that what they are buying is of such poor quality.

We are use to buying mass produced cars using true quality control systems and robots on multiple run assembly lines, where product runs are then dumped onto large lots full of very similar cars of a particular model for shipment worldwide.

Then we think an RV is made exactly the same way, but it isn't.

It is custom made to order on an assembly line, one by one, with very different units being produced each time, with the mfg plugging in parts from a variety of sources without testing them, and the line keeps moving even if the worker fails to get something done for some reason, and at the end of the day something called a PDI is used to attempt some reasonable degree of "try to catch it "quality control."

Now of course we pay a lot of money so we should expect more.

But, of course we don't get more but we are smart so we B & M more to show how smart we are that custom made products can be produced just like mass produced products can be produced...with reasonable expectations of similar quality results.

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Old 12-19-2016, 08:56 AM   #104
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"I love these threads where a certain percentage of people bury their head in the sand and defend the manufacturer to no end by coming up with some comment to justify lack of QC."

Me too!!!

We know that we are pretty smart people. It is obvious to us that the lack of QC is unnecessary and that it has to be either lazy workers on the line, greedy owners, designers who never lived in an RV, and buyers with too much credit and not enough time on their hands to figure out that what they are buying is of such poor quality.

We are use to buying mass produced cars using true quality control systems and robots on multiple run assembly lines, where product runs are then dumped onto large lots full of very similar cars of a particular model for shipment worldwide.

Then we think an RV is made exactly the same way, but it isn't.

It is custom made to order on an assembly line, one by one, with very different units being produced each time, with the mfg plugging in parts from a variety of sources without testing them, and the line keeps moving even if the worker fails to get something done for some reason, and at the end of the day something called a PDI is used to attempt some reasonable degree of "try to catch it "quality control."

Now of course we pay a lot of money so we should expect more.

But, of course we don't get more but we are smart so we B & M more to show how smart we are that custom made products can be produced just like mass produced products can be produced...with reasonable expectations of similar quality results.

The thing that burns my arse to no end and makes my head explode, which pushes me into full blown B&M in all its glory, are the simple things. Stripped out screws, 2 staples where it needed 3, and the best one..................When I am sitting on the toilet having a morning constitutional and I look down at the 45 degree inside corner, and see where the staples on the wall panel were missing the stud. You would think the Amish Craftsman would of had a light go off in his head and say to himself...."Self, I need to move the gun 1/2" to the right". Did he? Hell no. I'll just keep shooting staples even though they are blowing right through the panel. If they are hitting nothing but air I suppose if you shoot 45 of them in from the floor up to about eye level while sitting on the plastic throne they'll hold better? Then to top it all off someone does not even make an attempt to fill those holes with $0.03 worth of caulking because they're not up at eye level when standing.
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Old 12-19-2016, 09:40 AM   #105
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Amish craftsmen? Some are, most are just factory workers with a 'factory attitude' from what I observe (and I have observed them, in Indiana, Michigan and Ohio so my opinion is not really an opinion but from actual personal observation.
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Old 12-19-2016, 09:51 AM   #106
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"The thing that burns my arse to no end and makes my head explode,"

After I retired from my business and then attained my "certification," I worked at an RV rental company for a short period of time as an RV service technician. I worked 60 hours a week for three months repairing the units and putting them back on the road.

The problems you are having, with all due respect to you, were the same kinds of things that we dealt with as the company only bought entry level RV units. We would fix them just well enough to get them back on the road.

If you can afford it, purchasing the better quality units out there may make life a bit less angry and frustrating for you.

A good set of tools and a "just part of the journey" attitude may be a better approach that the other approach you are using.

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Old 12-19-2016, 10:27 AM   #107
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Amish Craftsmen is hype! Some are some aren't.
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Old 12-19-2016, 12:50 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philos3 View Post

The problems you are having, with all due respect to you, were the same kinds of things that we dealt with as the company only bought entry level RV units. We would fix them just well enough to get them back on the road.

If you can afford it, purchasing the better quality units out there may make life a bit less angry and frustrating for you.
I don't recall mentioning anywhere in this thread I am having problems, at least in the present time, but I appreciate your concern.

I do have two questions if you don't mind.

#1, Please define what constitutes an entry level unit. I've heard of them before in this and other RV forums but have yet to ever hear a clear definition. Is it anything below a certain cost threshold or something? Where is the line drawn? I know a gentleman who bought a top of the line DRV to the tune of about 130K and has had many more problems than I had with my lowly 20K Rockwood. But then again a DRV is not a Prevost Monteroso I guess.

#2, Please point us in the right direction, throw us a bone, or float us a drag, as to where those of us with these lower quality units can find the better quality units? I know a lot of people here would love to see that question answered.

Ooooooops, can I have a third?

What brand RV do you own if you don't mind me asking?
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Old 12-19-2016, 01:05 PM   #109
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Old 12-19-2016, 01:34 PM   #110
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And the site team agrees with the above humorous pic, as this ticking time bomb thread is about to explode. We are going to close it for the sake of forum harmony.
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