K&N Air Filter vs MPG...is this a fluke?

[aintgotnun]

Originally Posted by Palomino_G210

Another question I have not seen asked is "

How much have you spent on cleaner and lubricant for the life of your K&N

and

what was the environmental impact of your using this cleaner. Was it properly disposed of???"

I use Dawn dish soap to clean my Airaid filter (like K&N). The cleaner that comes with the kits is basically good dish soap. I've had my filter for around 125k miles and have cleaned it 5 times so far. It's due for another. Cost to clean and re-oil is about $5 worth of oil per cleaning as I can get 2 oilings out of a filter oil bottle that runs $10. The Dawn is already in the house but I'll call it 30 cents for cleaning. So $5.30 to wash and re-oil my filter. I haven't priced a paper one in years but I think they run around $25-30 a pop for a good one.

Environmental impact??? I wash it off in my back yard. The grass is still growing and I don't have that third eye or extra finger growing yet. Of course I don't worry too much about the environmental impact of cleaning an oil filter as I burn HUNDREDS of gallons of diesel fuel each and every year along with putting new tires on my truck every 40-60k miles. Not to mention I have to use electricity generated via a coal or nat gas plant for heating and cooling my house. Plus whatever else I do. A little oil mixed with Dawn dish soap in the back yard is negligible. Besides.... In the last 125k miles I would have had to replace a paper filter (that has rubber seals on it) at least 12 times so far so I'm saving space in the land fill for everybody else.

[NWJeeper]

Originally Posted by aintgotnun

Environmental impact??? I wash it off in my back yard. The grass is still growing and I don't have that third eye or extra finger growing yet. Of course I don't worry too much about the environmental impact of cleaning an oil filter as I burn HUNDREDS of gallons of diesel fuel each and every year along with putting new tires on my truck every 40-60k miles. Not to mention I have to use electricity generated via a coal or nat gas plant for heating and cooling my house. Plus whatever else I do. A little oil mixed with Dawn dish soap in the back yard is negligible. Besides.... In the last 125k miles I would have had to replace a paper filter (that has rubber seals on it) at least 12 times so far so I'm saving space in the land fill for everybody else.

I agree here.

I use the spray on oil in the "Filter Recharger" kit you can buy for K&N filters. I have found that the kit which contains a biodegradeable cleaner in a pump bottle and a can of spray on oil has lasted me several years of use (at least 5 cleanings a year on my Jeep) and cost about $20. As I drive my Jeep off-road in very dusty and harsh conditions I clean the filter often and have had no problems with the engine. When it was time for a valve job and new head gasket I tore down the top end and everything was in good condition so the filters do work as long as you maintain them. I have just under 150K on my Jeep and still doesn't burn a drop of oil and has great compression.

[nevergoingback]

K&N are junk. You might as well just not run a filter.

How's that for a first post? LOL

[LadyWindrider]

You are entitled to your opinion, and without sufficient data to back it up, that is what it is, just an opinion. Don't go telling us your experience, provide data with multiple vehicles and varying driving conditions. That's what K&N does, and so far, nobody has proven their data wrong. Wether I like them, have one, or not, doesn't matter here, it's YOUR OPINION that you posted. How's that for an answer to your first post.

[EdJunior]

Originally Posted by nevergoingback

How's that for a first post? LOL

Uh, not very good! Care to elaborate on that a little. I had one of those pieces of "junk" on my F-250 for 5 years and 125,000 miles. It's still on there for the guy that bought it from me. It's pulled my old TT and boat all over the place. As with everything, proper care and maintenance. And I've never had to buy a new air filter the whole time I had the truck.

[slpybeartx]

Originally Posted by Palomino_G210

Have a look at this for a filter comaprision.

air filter test

It is hard to find fault with what he did.

An engine rebuild cost a lot more than you can save by using reusable air filters.

You know, this is the first piece of research that I have read that actually puts its money where its mouth is. A mechanical engineer gets tired of the KN vs. Paper argument and sets up some experiements to see just what the real story is. Let me see if I can summarize what the guy did...

1.) Takes a Mazda Miata and uses six different filters to test flow and filtration. Flow testing would point towards what kind of "performance gains" could be had. Filtration testing was to see what kind of increased risk of damage to the engine might be had. Reusable filters - K&N, Foam filters - Amsoil, Jackson, etc., and Paper - NAPA.

2.) for Flow testing he installs a pressure differential switch to measure pressure drop before and after the filters. Results? K&N had the lowest pressure drop... by 0.02 PSIG. In straight talk... the K&N provided the test vehicle a boost of 0.14% flow to the engine compared to a stock, paper filter. Yes, that was zero point one four percent.

3.) For filtration testing he installed a small secondary filter to observe what kind of particles passed through the filters. All the filters tested passed particles through. The "cleanest" filter? The NAPA Paper filter.

conclusions? The guy did about an close to an unbiased test on Reusable vs. Foam vs. Paper filters as I have seen. The Reusable filter offered a minute increase in flow that was gained by passing more particles through to his engine.

In my opinion, after reading the experiment, oversized paper air filters would be the optimum filter for flow and filtration.

[TulsaSteve]

And yet, even with this disclaimer at the top of that link:

"This is a contribution from AnthonyS Member # 1824 of our forum board. showing some interesting results on air filtration/ flow tests. I want to thank AnthonyS for all the great work in taking the time to perform these tests. Of course these are not standard ASTM tests and by no means represent any scientific certainty. He explains on how he performed his test and what he found as a result. This information is to be taken as nothing more and is not to endorse , promote, or imply which is better but to share some interesting results."

AnthonyS' blog posting is assumed to be gospel because it contradicts a big/bad/nasty company that makes a product that millions of happy customers use every day.

Go figure...

btw, K&N apparently does some testing of there own...

http://www.knfilters.com/air_filter_testing.htm

[slpybeartx]

Originally Posted by TulsaSteve

And yet, even with this disclaimer at the top of that link:

"This is a contribution from AnthonyS Member # 1824 of our forum board. showing some interesting results on air filtration/ flow tests. I want to thank AnthonyS for all the great work in taking the time to perform these tests. Of course these are not standard ASTM tests and by no means represent any scientific certainty. He explains on how he performed his test and what he found as a result. This information is to be taken as nothing more and is not to endorse , promote, or imply which is better but to share some interesting results."

AnthonyS' blog posting is assumed to be gospel because it contradicts a big/bad/nasty company that makes a product that millions of happy customers use every day.

Go figure...

btw, K&N apparently does some testing of there own...

http://www.knfilters.com/air_filter_testing.htm

Ummm, actually, no, his testing and posts do not contradict a big/bad/nasty company that makes a product that millions of happy customers use every day.

His results show what many here also see that simply replacing a stock filter with a K&N filter (or foam for that matter) give minute flow gains from the factory paper filter. And his results also anecdotally validate the info directly from the KN site you provided... that KN filters have somewhere between a 96% and 99% filtration efficiency.

Its just my opinion, but I like the real world testing. And it showed that a the KN gave a minute gain at the cost of slightly lower filtration performance. That is not the same thing as saying that K&N = EVIL. Rather, it simply says that the K&N really didn't distinguish itself from paper filters that much as a direct replacement.

YMMV

[NWJeeper]

Originally Posted by slpybeartx

Ummm, actually, no, his testing and posts do not contradict a big/bad/nasty company that makes a product that millions of happy customers use every day.

His results show what many here also see that simply replacing a stock filter with a K&N filter (or foam for that matter) give minute flow gains from the factory paper filter. And his results also anecdotally validate the info directly from the KN site you provided... that KN filters have somewhere between a 96% and 99% filtration efficiency.

Its just my opinion, but I like the real world testing. And it showed that a the KN gave a minute gain at the cost of slightly lower filtration performance. That is not the same thing as saying that K&N = EVIL. Rather, it simply says that the K&N really didn't distinguish itself from paper filters that much as a direct replacement.

YMMV

In my real world testing in conditions that most of you could never imagine driving my Jeep off road in dust like talcum powder so thick that it engulfs the rig and you dissapear literaly from view and come home with enough dirt in the rig that you could grow potatoes I can say that I have had zero issues with a K&N filter for the 12 years that I have been using one on my Jeep.

Like mentioned above, it comes down to care and maintenance. I religiously clean the filter after conditions like this as soon as I can. I also have NO illusions that the K&N will give me better fuel economy or more power, that's all just a bunch of hype and wishful thinking. As it was also pointed out earlier, the computer on most modern vehicles will adjust initially for the filter and give the appearance of better mileage and or performance which is negligible then return to a normal pattern.

This is a debate that will go on and on for ever and will NEVER be solved. If you have burned your engine up while using a K&N then you may hate them. If like me you have used them for years to reduce the frequency and cost of replacing filters from driving in harsh conditions and have no illusions as to their so called "performance" gains then like me you are probably a happy customer for life.

[nevergoingback]

Originally Posted by windrider

blah blah blah blah.

Any filter that has PIN SIZED holes in it is not going to filter very well. Take off the KN filter and look in the intake manifold, yeah you'll see tons of dust.

Originally Posted by EdJunior

Uh, not very good! Care to elaborate on that a little. I had one of those pieces of "junk" on my F-250 for 5 years and 125,000 miles. It's still on there for the guy that bought it from me. It's pulled my old TT and boat all over the place. As with everything, proper care and maintenance. And I've never had to buy a new air filter the whole time I had the truck.

They just don't filter that great thats all. For race applications they fine. Day to day driving, they just let too much dust inide the engine.

Did you guys miss this post?
http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...6&postcount=37

Anyone that knows anything about proper air filtration will tell you they are junk. I guess their marketing really does work.

NBD guys, relax a little, this is suppossed to be fun.

[LadyWindrider]

anyone that knows anything about proper air filtration knows that paper filters are junk also. Elimination of all particles going in to a gasoline or diesel internal combustion engine is not practical, for the expense and maintenance it would require, nor is it necessary. Both the K&N and Paper filters let particles through, but nothing large enough to damage or even cause abnormal wear. One other note, if you remove a K&N filter and see dust inside the intake piping, you need to go back and read the directions. It says to OIL the filter after cleaning. You may see some dirt and oil inside the intake, but if you see dust, you forgot to oil it. It has happened to a lot of folks, even racers.

[nevergoingback]

nope, I cleaned it and oiled it religiously. Dust gets through those things for sure.

I will admit that the cone type filters seem to work better than the replacement "flat" filters.

K&N = great marketing.

[NWJeeper]

Originally Posted by nevergoingback

nope, I cleaned it and oiled it religiously. Dust gets through those things for sure.

I will admit that the cone type filters seem to work better than the replacement "flat" filters.

K&N = great marketing.

So how would you explain my sucess with the K&N filters in over 12 years of 4-wheelin' in conditions 100 times worse than a normal vehicle will ever see in its life time? Marketing?

[LadyWindrider]

NWJEEPER,

You have already explained your success, not only with the K&N filter, but with the rest of the vehicle also, PROPER MAINTENANCE FOR CONDITIONS DRIVEN IN. That's the secret, not which filter you run, but properly maintaining it, whether it's paper and you replace it, or reusable and you clean it. Same with changing the oil and oil filter, not so much as what brand, but that you do it when needed, or more often. Hope I didn't just start an oil war because it's time to bury this one.

[NWJeeper]

Originally Posted by windrider

Hope I didn't just start an oil war because it's time to bury this one.

Couldn't agree with you more, this one needs to be closed

[EdJunior]

Originally Posted by NWJeeper

Couldn't agree with you more, this one needs to be closed

I agree...Please!