New Forest River Service Policy

[KatanaPilot]

Originally Posted by SidecarFlip

My comment to your comment simply is...

If you (representing the builder) not attempting to single you out, but you are here so I will..lol

You as the builder, if you paid more attention to the build quality and less about getting them OTD in a short of time frame as possible...there would not be as many issues on the buyer's end (I read about things on here that are just plain irresponsible, like never hitting the wood underneath a panel because the screws were installed in the wrong place, or not enough screws in door hinges (they take 3 in each blade, not one or two) or TV's that fall off the wall because if insufficient mounting screws or windows that leak because the frame is installed upside down or doors that don't latch properly because the striker plate was installed crooked or ceiling lights that fall out because the screws aren't hitting anything but air....or how about the Lippert 'flex' frames and cracking welds....

The list goes on and on and all of that should be addressed when the unit is built, not after it leaves the factory and gets delivered to the selling retail dealer. No wonder dealers are swamped.

If I was a dealer I'd be pretty unhappy about the lack of attention to detail when the unit was built. Sure, the dealer is in it to make money, I'm a retail dealer myself but not in the RV business and in my business, I (as a dealer) won't accept second rate merchandise, it goes back and gets replaced before it ever goes to my customer. My suppliers know that I will not accept second rate merchandise for sale, which is neither here nor there but in your industry, it's apparent to me that FR wants to pass the quality buck onto the dealers to deal with and that is not right, nor is it sound business practice.

I have to say that my FR unit has been trouble free. I've had to 'fix' a few things but looking at it as a whole, items like screws that fasten to nothing and crooked hinges, I have and repaired myself. I should not have had to, if, there was any sort of quality manufacturing instilled into the employees and if the company as a whole was interested in turning out a quality product instead of shoving them out the door and passing the buck on to the dealers. Not every buyer has the skill or knowledge to repair poor manufacturing. I do and I have.

That not right and I'm glad I'm not in the RV business because if I was, I would not represent FR products.

Your industry needs to get it's act together and quit buck passing. The buck should stop with you as the builder through continuous quality improvement. I don't see that.

I see lip service but no tangible, action.

Another example if you want to call it that is FR's 'shine bay'. With continuous quality improvement instilled in each and every team member (employee), the 'shine bay' method works but only for minor imperfections. Every employee must be a team member. Kind of obvious to me that FR's ''shine bay' is lip service because the end quality of the delivered product is not improving. What does the 'shine bay' do? Wipe off the dust?

Finally, the 'Amish' craftsmanship'. Great selling line, but in reality, the Amish that work in your factories are nothing more than a clock number putting in their time and getting paid, for the most part. Some are real craftsmen, most aren't. I have had a lot of dealings with the Amish in my previous job. I've seen first hand what kind of 'craftsmen' most are. They might be in their home wood shops making trinkets and artsy-fartsy stuff for gentiles but in your plants they are nothing more than an employee.

Candidly, I'm happy with my unit but I do expect to buy another in the future and at this juncture, unless your quality level's improve, it won't be a Warren Buffett company I purchase from.

FR, in general has a long way to go to achieve a consistent level of quality commensurate to the price point of many of your units.

The quality is out there. It's just not in your products today at least in my perspective.

I can understand why there are so many posters on here with issues. Not all those issues are build related, some are of the end users fault through inexperience or ignorance but many issues could be addressed at the factory level and they aren't because of the 'shove it out the door' attitude.

Putting that burden on an independent dealer is unfair IMO. Maybe you at FR need to address opening 'company stores' instead, especially if the quality level;s stay where they are presently.

Finally, I realize that any RV is a luxury item, not a necessity. Notwithstanding, luxury or not, quality is inherent with a good product and quality sells product. Like a watch, When you say the name Rolex, it's regarded as a quality timepiece and commands a price commensurate with it's quality. Rolex is a luxury item (I own one), not an necessity but I'm proud to be able to afford the quality. You should take a tip from that credo.

Just my 2 cents.

Sidecarflip,

Your reply to Mr. Clemens is one of the best posts I have read on this forum in some time. You have captured many of my sentiments that I have been unable to express in a fairly succinct manner.

Mr. Clemens, I highly suggest you copy his post and show it to your managers as well as the people that work for you. Although I suspect you disagree with what has been stated, some of your customers (if you consider the end user your customer and not just the dealers) feel this way about your industry and the products you produce. The quality is not consistently good and the service provided by both the manufacturers and the dealers is frequently sub-par. It clearly does not meet my expectations and I expect others feel the same way. Whether this is ubiquitous across the industry, I don't know and frankly don't really care. I bought a FR product partly on the basis of the "hype" that a BH-owned company produces the best in the industry and they stand behind them. My experience has been quite different and from many of the posts on this forum - I am not the only one.

[heavynlori]

Originally Posted by KatanaPilot

Sidecarflip,

Your reply to Mr. Clemens is one of the best posts I have read on this forum in some time. You have captured many of my sentiments that I have been unable to express in a fairly succinct manner.

Mr. Clemens, I highly suggest you copy his post and show it to your managers as well as the people that work for you. Although I suspect you disagree with what has been stated, some of your customers (if you consider the end user your customer and not just the dealers) feel this way about your industry and the products you produce. The quality is not consistently good and the service provided by both the manufacturers and the dealers is frequently sub-par. It clearly does not meet my expectations and I expect others feel the same way. Whether this is ubiquitous across the industry, I don't know and frankly don't really care. I bought a FR product partly on the basis of the "hype" that a BH-owned company produces the best in the industry and they stand behind them. My experience has been quite different and from many of the posts on this forum - I am not the only one.

BRAVO - excellent post [emoji1319][emoji1319]

[Brickie]

Thank you Mr. Sidecar!!!

[CaptnJohn]

Originally Posted by SidecarFlip

My comment to your comment simply is...

If you (representing the builder) not attempting to single you out, but you are here so I will..lol

You as the builder, if you paid more attention to the build quality and less about getting them OTD in a short of time frame as possible...there would not be as many issues on the buyer's end (I read about things on here that are just plain irresponsible, like never hitting the wood underneath a panel because the screws were installed in the wrong place, or not enough screws in door hinges (they take 3 in each blade, not one or two) or TV's that fall off the wall because if insufficient mounting screws or windows that leak because the frame is installed upside down or doors that don't latch properly because the striker plate was installed crooked or ceiling lights that fall out because the screws aren't hitting anything but air....or how about the Lippert 'flex' frames and cracking welds....

The list goes on and on and all of that should be addressed when the unit is built, not after it leaves the factory and gets delivered to the selling retail dealer. No wonder dealers are swamped.

If I was a dealer I'd be pretty unhappy about the lack of attention to detail when the unit was built. Sure, the dealer is in it to make money, I'm a retail dealer myself but not in the RV business and in my business, I (as a dealer) won't accept second rate merchandise, it goes back and gets replaced before it ever goes to my customer. My suppliers know that I will not accept second rate merchandise for sale, which is neither here nor there but in your industry, it's apparent to me that FR wants to pass the quality buck onto the dealers to deal with and that is not right, nor is it sound business practice.

I have to say that my FR unit has been trouble free. I've had to 'fix' a few things but looking at it as a whole, items like screws that fasten to nothing and crooked hinges, I have and repaired myself. I should not have had to, if, there was any sort of quality manufacturing instilled into the employees and if the company as a whole was interested in turning out a quality product instead of shoving them out the door and passing the buck on to the dealers. Not every buyer has the skill or knowledge to repair poor manufacturing. I do and I have.

That not right and I'm glad I'm not in the RV business because if I was, I would not represent FR products.

Your industry needs to get it's act together and quit buck passing. The buck should stop with you as the builder through continuous quality improvement. I don't see that.

I see lip service but no tangible, action.

Another example if you want to call it that is FR's 'shine bay'. With continuous quality improvement instilled in each and every team member (employee), the 'shine bay' method works but only for minor imperfections. Every employee must be a team member. Kind of obvious to me that FR's ''shine bay' is lip service because the end quality of the delivered product is not improving. What does the 'shine bay' do? Wipe off the dust?

Finally, the 'Amish' craftsmanship'. Great selling line, but in reality, the Amish that work in your factories are nothing more than a clock number putting in their time and getting paid, for the most part. Some are real craftsmen, most aren't. I have had a lot of dealings with the Amish in my previous job. I've seen first hand what kind of 'craftsmen' most are. They might be in their home wood shops making trinkets and artsy-fartsy stuff for gentiles but in your plants they are nothing more than an employee.

Candidly, I'm happy with my unit but I do expect to buy another in the future and at this juncture, unless your quality level's improve, it won't be a Warren Buffett company I purchase from.

FR, in general has a long way to go to achieve a consistent level of quality commensurate to the price point of many of your units.

The quality is out there. It's just not in your products today at least in my perspective.

I can understand why there are so many posters on here with issues. Not all those issues are build related, some are of the end users fault through inexperience or ignorance but many issues could be addressed at the factory level and they aren't because of the 'shove it out the door' attitude.

Putting that burden on an independent dealer is unfair IMO. Maybe you at FR need to address opening 'company stores' instead, especially if the quality level;s stay where they are presently.

Finally, I realize that any RV is a luxury item, not a necessity. Notwithstanding, luxury or not, quality is inherent with a good product and quality sells product. Like a watch, When you say the name Rolex, it's regarded as a quality timepiece and commands a price commensurate with it's quality. Rolex is a luxury item (I own one), not an necessity but I'm proud to be able to afford the quality. You should take a tip from that credo.

Just my 2 cents.

Right on. You hit on the reason my current 5er is a Cougar and next week I pick up my new Montana. The Cougar went in for a new fender at the end of the 1st year for the only warranty item and HOPEFULLY the Montana is as fortunate.

I did get a chuckle on "Amish craftsmanship " as I used to live near a large Amish community. How the work in the community is one thing and how they work for "the English " is totally different.

[m35a2]

Originally Posted by CaptnJohn

Right on. You hit on the reason my current 5er is a Cougar and next week I pick up my new Montana. The Cougar went in for a new fender at the end of the 1st year for the only warranty item and HOPEFULLY the Montana is as fortunate.

I did get a chuckle on "Amish craftsmanship " as I used to live near a large Amish community. How the work in the community is one thing and how they work for "the English " is totally different.

The term craftsmanship doesn't have any place in a discussion about assembling something from pre-made parts.
I challenge anyone to point out an example of craftsmanship in any rv.

I'd settle for a simple "job done right." Tough to get when your workers get paid by the piece.

[Gonefishing1]

Sidecarflip
Agree 100% with everything you said. As a prior business owner I also would not receive a product unless it was 100%. Like you my vendors knew that and for that reason would not send me what they knew I would not take and would return. We got along just great. The dealers should start doing the same thing if a TT comes in and is not of quality workmanship refuse it. If enough dealers would start doing that the company would have to step up the QC and ship out better unites. As a dealer it is your rep that suffers when you sell something of bad quality. Word of month is everything when it comes to customers. You hardly ever hear a customer say I would not buy this product. But hear it all the time I would not buy from this person or dealer.

[pgandw]

An open letter to Forest River:

Quality is not something you can add after the fact.

It starts with your suppliers. Are you inspecting the Dometic fridges and A/Cs, the Lippert frames and components before you use them? Are you ready to terminate Lippert if they don't beef up the water tank mounts? If you are not working with your suppliers to get consistent quality, you have no quality control.

Second is the assembly line. Why does the installer not have a jig to drill the holes to assemble the cabinetry? Does the installer have the right to stop the assembly line because something isn't right? Or will he get fired for holding things up? Will his foreman say, "you're right, this is not fitting together correctly. We are going to stop until this is corrected."

Why is there not a new wiring diagram issued every time you modify the design or change suppliers for one of the appliances? Why are wiring harness not pre-made instead of each installer cutting his own wire from a spool? Why are wire lengths not standardized? Why are wire clamp locations not pre-determined and part of the drilling template? Why are a series of wire nuts used instead of a terminal block?

You claim you are about quality. Then put it into practice. Every point I've made, any foreman or manager worth his salt already knew. Walk the talk for a change. the little things I listed will be more than paid for by reduced warranty claims, rework, and material waste. And increased customer satisfaction can actually increase sales.

Fred W
2014 Rockwood A122 A-frame

[Gonefishing1]

Originally Posted by pgandw

An open letter to Forest River:

Quality is not something you can add after the fact.

It starts with your suppliers. Are you inspecting the Dometic fridges and A/Cs, the Lippert frames and components before you use them? Are you ready to terminate Lippert if they don't beef up the water tank mounts? If you are not working with your suppliers to get consistent quality, you have no quality control.

Second is the assembly line. Why does the installer not have a jig to drill the holes to assemble the cabinetry? Does the installer have the right to stop the assembly line because something isn't right? Or will he get fired for holding things up? Will his foreman say, "you're right, this is not fitting together correctly. We are going to stop until this is corrected."

Why is there not a new wiring diagram issued every time you modify the design or change suppliers for one of the appliances? Why are wiring harness not pre-made instead of each installer cutting his own wire from a spool? Why are wire lengths not standardized? Why are wire clamp locations not pre-determined and part of the drilling template? Why are a series of wire nuts used instead of a terminal block?

You claim you are about quality. Then put it into practice. Every point I've made, any foreman or manager worth his salt already knew. Walk the talk for a change. the little things I listed will be more than paid for by reduced warranty claims, rework, and material waste. And increased customer satisfaction can actually increase sales.

Fred W
2014 Rockwood A122 A-frame

Now if they will just read what you said and put it to use and change how things are done..

[dutch]

Bravo everyone well said.

[Trishatrucker]

Originally Posted by dutch

Bravo everyone well said.

If I had only known about this web site. I would have never purchased a fr camper. I have had window issues, plugs missing. My front end holds water, so when you put it up on the fifth wheel hitch water comes out of the bottom side by the front Jack. Which they can not reproduce so my under belly hold water every time it rains. The floor by the register was rippled they was suppose to fix before possession, which was not done. Two side doors that was the wrong ones, mine opens up and down not side to side. Holes drilled in side of the doors, so now doors are warped from water not being able to come out. Still waiting on them to come in. Funny but sad part we purchased our camper April 17, 2017 been in shop for 3 1/2 weeks since May 6th 2017 picked it up June 3 2017 still needing floor and doors done. Made 2 payments on it and still not gone camping. Slept one night in it out in my driveway. My slide outs don't fully open to the frame of the camper, took it back for that was told that is how they are. The daylight at the bottom of the bunk house slide out, well they put two pieces of rubber on outside to block the light but not the bugs from coming in. This camper was to be my stress reliever but it has caused me nothing but stress. I have cancer and the stress that this camper has brought onto me far outweighs the enjoyment I should be having. Been in contact with fr rep, seems to get run around from him. Still waiting for answers which I will never get.

[Dp26]

Demand dealer perform same day service. Not our problem if it takes all staff all day.

FR, give us direct parts access. I have been trying to get entry door replaced for 7 months. Today was supposed to be the day, but the door was damaged in transit or sitting in the shop.

FR, monitor your dealers. Mine has one visible tool box near the door to the service lot, so probably only one pro mechanic. Given what I observed today in the service lot, I will be asking FR to let me pick my own mechanic or do the work myself - and seek reimbursement. All staff appears to have turned over except for one mechanic and helper.

A large very visible trim molding had the covering delaminate as noted on pdi. New molding, 7 months to get and install, looks good, other than the sloppy way it was nailed on and not filled. Fool me once and I will moan, but fix it. Not going to fool me twice.

My DW is very picky, but has given up and told me to fix the rest as I see fit. I would have rather fixed it myself, correctly, 7 months ago when we started the claim process. She hates that things are still needing warranty fix, and that I have to do it... I detest her enjoyment has been tempered by the warranty experience, let alone a door which jams shut against the frame because the frame was over shimmed or the hole cut too narrow for the frame used.

So, personally, the reporting of units on a lot is a waste. No customer should allow such terrible service in the first place. FR should allow and demand CUSTOMERS report a unit in a shop beyond book time plus a day. What I want is timely access to parts. Then, customers can choose who to install them. If FR is not reimbursing enough for a unwise dealer to skip to shop rate work first, the ability to use someone else will allow customers to speak with actions.

[ibabble]

Originally Posted by Cowracer

I'd be happy if they cracked the whip on the "you didn't buy it from us, we're not gonna work on it" attitude. If you sell FR, then you work on FR, period.

Tim

EXACTLY!!! local fr dealer (Sandy, Or) flat out told us they would not do work, not even warranty work in our fifth wheel because we didn’t buy from them. Actually found a different dealership that was authorized to work on fr even though they didn’t sell my line of fr (xlr).

[Boatbuilder]

I have a Crusader made by Forest River and had a few problems.1,Black Tank Flush valve,2,Shower sliding door bottom rail,3,Radio. These were easily fixed and should have been caught at the factory. My guess is that it all comes down to training. The hose was kinked on the BT flush valve,there was no seal underneath the sliding door rail and the radio did not work because the antenna was never unwrapped so it could receive reception. This was either because of a lack of training or deliberate act.

[larry2c]

Reading through this thread is like reading through all the issues we've had with our TT (and our previous Jayco) and the poor dealer responses - times about 100.

Like many here I think the fault lies in both places - initially quality from the factory (our TT was built in Hemet CA), no push back from the dealership to the factory when they get a rig that has obvious defects and then minimal support for the customer on warranty work.

One thing that I think would help the industry as a whole is if there were organizations (think JD Power) and media publications (e.g. Consumer Reports, Car & Driver, etc.) that did real live evaluations and reviews that consumers could use to make intelligent purchasing decisions. When we bought our current TT (4th trailer in about 25 years) I looked for any sort of real evaluations and found nothing. I spent around $75 for the Travel Trailer & RV comparison guide and in the end, it told me nothing about the individual models, just general info about the manufacturer and their quality rating based on some nebulous data. None of this was really of value in the end. I feel that if the real quality info was available to consumers, the manufactures would have to improve their product or the consumers would go to the ones that were rated better (assuming that at least one company gets a good rating!)

My 2¢

[CaptnJohn]

Originally Posted by larry2c

Reading through this thread is like reading through all the issues we've had with our TT (and our previous Jayco) and the poor dealer responses - times about 100.

Like many here I think the fault lies in both places - initially quality from the factory (our TT was built in Hemet CA), no push back from the dealership to the factory when they get a rig that has obvious defects and then minimal support for the customer on warranty work.

One thing that I think would help the industry as a whole is if there were organizations (think JD Power) and media publications (e.g. Consumer Reports, Car & Driver, etc.) that did real live evaluations and reviews that consumers could use to make intelligent purchasing decisions. When we bought our current TT (4th trailer in about 25 years) I looked for any sort of real evaluations and found nothing. I spent around $75 for the Travel Trailer & RV comparison guide and in the end, it told me nothing about the individual models, just general info about the manufacturer and their quality rating based on some nebulous data. None of this was really of value in the end. I feel that if the real quality info was available to consumers, the manufactures would have to improve their product or the consumers would go to the ones that were rated better (assuming that at least one company gets a good rating!)

My 2¢

I have seen CW refuse delivery on one 5er with obvious problems. No one knows if it was returned to the factory or dropped at another dealer.

[JJOHNSTON1257]

My 2019 Vengeance Rouge is has a 3 major issues!
My Onan Generator shuts down after 30 minutes, I had to take it in to a Onan Repair Shop because the Dealerships don't work on them. The Repair Shop said it's not vented properly and it's breathing in its own hot air causing to overheat! They won't warranty the motor if it blows up. Also the Fuel Station wont take gas from a gas station pump. I have to spoon feed it in with a 1 gallon can. Can't get any dealers to look at this! They all state they dont work on Fuel components. Also my Rear Drop Gate on my Toyhauler buckled after loadiing and unloading my Harley on twice. Now I have a leak in the back when it rains. FR tells me its made by a 3rd party and they have to fix it! WTF!

I'm ready to drop it off in Indiana and have a lawyer contact them! $30,000 of junk!

Anyone have suggestions?

[Bonners]

You are SPOT ON in regards to that statement! It's kinda like closing the barn door after the horse is gone and taking your reputation with it.