RV Quality?

[SkipnTerri]

[QUOTE=schrederman;838386]Gents.... this isn't just about Forest River, but the entire industry. My TT has been OK, but I've had to fix way too much on it, simply because it's less hassle for me to do it than to hassle with the dealer and manufacturer.

With all the problems with the Forester, don't you think those issues should have been taken care of before you drove it off the lot? Good that most are done, but what about your time in dealing with them? Couldn't it have been better spent? I know mine could...

We'd prefer to drive off the lot with no issues, especially on a special order; however, they surfaced with use. For instance, how would one know there was too much cable making the DVD player blink? Or that the propane hose was kinked when the slide was in making the stove inoperable? How about missing mounting hardware on the outdoor TV? Not all are in plain sight.

[northstar1960]

Originally Posted by X96mnn

Exactly!

I want the most bells and whistles that I can afford in the floorplan I want. I do look for some signs of quality, things like weight, in my mind two trailers, exact same floorplan, one weighs 11000pds, one ways 8900pds, there is 2100pds of quality into heavier one. Other then that spend the money to get what you pay for or do not ruin the opertunity for someone who cannot afford a 6k jump in the price of an RV.

Eventually at the rate people are ranting two things are going to happen.
1: The 20k unit will cost 25k with "regulation" and your going to get the same end product. This will eliminate many of the young families getting into RVing today.

2: Regulation on the roads where registration of your camper will cost you commercial rates, (example for my camper is $260ish for recreation and $819 if it gets classifies as commercial). This will happen when a mess is made with someone hauling 19000pds with their 1500 truck and kills a politician....or lobbiest.

Really cost go up and quality stays the same . hardly . units would get better quality would go up and if 5G means you buy smaller or don't buy then so be it . your 1st statement is a real bogus statement . regulation of auto industry caused them to be safer and better quality and guess what just about everyone owns a car or two . next thing that will happen is capitalism will cause more competition and quality again will go up and in some cases costs will go down

[northstar1960]

Originally Posted by vinmaker

I have to put in that I am very impressed with pricing of these units. I for one am amazed at how low the prices are compared to what you get. Those of you that have ever tried to do a rebuild know that the sum of the parts highly exceeds the total when you buy a complete RV.

The factory is basically building this unit for free for you. If you needed to buy all these parts to assemble this unit to your High Quality standards, it would be more expensive.

I look at it this way. I take advantage of the RV pricing that they offer for the units and then use that savings to make any repairs or corrections I need to. Just because the unit is new does not mean it is not a fixer upper.

The capital system dictates that you spend as little money as you have to to build it and charge the most you can to sell it. Buying an RV is like buying a computer. These guys just assemble the thing. They make the box and everything in it is basically off the shelf stuff that they install. If it breaks, I just order a piece off the shelf and go on with my life.

Vin.

making the units for free for us REALLY ! As far as parts what you pay for parts are 10 timee what they pay for the same part . you pay retail at about 1000% increase they get all there parts at below wholesale . the same $10.00 part that you pay for costs them maybe $2

[ColoradoRick]

Overall, we are very happy with our trailer but it's only the second one we owned.

Like automobiles, I think the longevity greatly depends on the how good the owner takes care of it. I had a new van in 2000 that I gave to my sister a few years and it's running and lasting better than my son-in-laws 5-year old Corolla. Why? Because I took care of it and I've helped my sister maintain it. (My son-in-law is an artist and knows very little about just about anything else...but that's another story...)

For you naysayers, aren't you at least a bit thrilled when you see those 30+ year old, sun-bleached, campers parked at the grocery store? I sure am! (I've even seen some that don't look like they have a single dent or scratch on them...how awesome is THAT?)

[northstar1960]

coloradorick. your right about taking of what you own , house , cars , motorcycles , campers . my last truck slide in pop up i just sold was 18yrs old and it all worked great and looked great and that with 2 to 3 months a yr use . but it was perfect when i brought it a northstar . I like my brand new 29 xlr TH but did not think i would have so much to do the first week getting things right . i was a busy 9 hr days 4 days worth of correcting sloppy workmanship. Now the unit is starting to shine no big deal cause now i know it inside and out . but still should not have had to do much of what i had to

[FordHauler]

TURBS,
I, too, have been one of the fortunate ones. My 2013 Flagstaff has had very few issues in the two years and 25,000 miles we have had it. What few issues I had I learned quickly my dealer did not give a rip about. So I fixed them myself. I will not go back there!
Some owners are not skilled in ways necessary to keep an RV up like others of us are.
I do believe though that FR could do a MUCH better job of choosing dealers and holding them to the job of servicing the customer, or send them packing. A lot of small issues cause owners to be duly frustrated because many dealers are exceptional liars.
Travel safe

[X96mnn]

Originally Posted by northstar1960

Really cost go up and quality stays the same . hardly . units would get better quality would go up and if 5G means you buy smaller or don't buy then so be it . your 1st statement is a real bogus statement . regulation of auto industry caused them to be safer and better quality and guess what just about everyone owns a car or two . next thing that will happen is capitalism will cause more competition and quality again will go up and in some cases costs will go down

So I understand.

Everyone owned a brand new car or even two you know?

A company who invests 1.2 billion dollars in research and development would not past that cost on to the end user for technology or quality improvements?

If the answer is yes, in the words of Mark Twain I will not argue further with you and leave the the reason for concession in the eyes of the beholder!

[pgandw]

The different points of view and opinions are quite interesting. My background, FWIW, includes working in both boat and aircraft repair and maintenance, and experience with quality and reliability in aircraft.

Comparing quality of cars and trucks to RVs is only part of the picture. Only a motor home RV has the all the systems a car/truck does and more. Be that as it may, as many have pointed out, quality came to domestically produced cars because Toyota and Datsun and Mazda and Subaru were eating their lunch with their reputations for higher quality - at a higher price. Owners were willing to pay the extra money for the reputed higher quality. As domestic cars significantly improved their quality and could profitably stay at or under the Japanese price, the Japanese producers struggled. They countered by shifting a good portion of their manufacturing to the US.

Since the quality movement took hold in the autmotive industry, the price of new cars and trucks have generally risen faster than inflation. Building in reliability and quality generally costs more upfront, but can be cheaper over the long term. Radial tires, electronic ignition, better bearings throughout, upholstery and paint that lasts years are all significant improvements in my lifetime. In the '60s, most cars needed extensive work to go beyond 100K miles. Now most will go 200K with just routine maintenance.

The government mandated safey improvements, but has never mandated quality.

But an RV is much more like a home on wheels. So a better comparison might be mobile and pre-manufactured homes. Note that these are also generally despised for their low quality - and they don't get bounced on crummy roads nearly as much. If you want quality, you get a stick-built house (even then you may not get quality). If you want low price, you buy pre-manufactured.

Personally, do I wish my 2014 Rockwood A122 was built better? Yes, but only if it could be done without inflating the price. A little over $10K was all I was willing to pay for a toy that would only be used on average 4 days/month. I was shocked to see that the frames of the dinette seats were not square. And I had initial propane and water leaks (miscast propane line fitting and loose plumbing connections). But once the leaks were fixed, the camper does work as advertised. And my dealer did a great job with service, warranty, and recommendations.

Finally, I'm sure the door is open for somebody willing to start a company to build high quality RVs. There should be plenty of investors from this forum. Whether or not it can be done profitably is a very interesting question.

just my thoughts
Fred W
2014 Rockwood A122
2008 Hyundai Entourage (minivan)
camping Colorado, Nebraska, Wyoming (and maybe Utah) one weekend at a time

[schrederman]

Fred,


Good post with a lot of truth in it. I am willing to pay for a better trailer. I am also an A&P and know about aircraft quality. It's not all quality, but also maintenance. If your car had the same maintenance schedule as a 747, it would last forever...


I agree that the RV industry has to be profitable. But, as was said, even when the price goes up, the quality still is the same. Sure they add some solid-surface tops and a few other niceties, but the basic trailer quality still is the same. If I was well heeled enough, and young enough to make a start-up company, I think I might. There are ways to make the frame stronger and stiffer, and still just as cheap as what they're doing now. Aluminum framing in the RV walls is sparse to say the least. Granted the whole wall is pretty strong once it's all laminated up, but could be made much better, and again stiffer, pretty easily. The real problem is the fact that they want to slam one together in 6 hours, start to finish. The attention to detail is horrible to nonexistent.


I truly think with a very little effort, the RV industry could be just as profitable as they are now because there would be less warranty work being paid for, and fewer units being shipped back to the factory. A 5er being returned to Indiana and then back to an owner in Texas was a bit over $5,000-, at the manufacturer's expense, and there went every bit of profit on that unit... I'd bet. This was probably due to someone not doing everything he/she was supposed to do before the trailer moved to the next station... heck, but the unit shipped... so no harm done, right?


The original post was mine, and a bit of a rant because I need more space, and I really want a new rig. I have busted my arse on mine to get it in, and keep it in perfect condition. I'm not having to spend as much time on it as I used to and it's 3 years old... What I want is roughly twice what I paid for my first house... and about twice what I paid for my current unit, and I know I'll be out there fixing this and reworking that... probably for the next 3 years... Hence my rant...


Sorry if it upset anyone...

[trbomax]

To understand what has to be done to build a quality product,go shopping and look at the 102" wide liveing quarters horse trailers with slides and everything else that the rv industry offers(in the form of amenditys). All aluminum construction (yes frame and all) spray foam insulation,t&g aluminum sub floors with the aluminum walls welded to the frame,not carrige bolted.Aluminum wall frameing that is welded together , not put together with steel "L" brackets and self tapping steel screws.Window and door frames that are fully gusseted in all corners.One piece metal roofs.I know about this because I have one,actually have had more than one. The only reason we bought the TH was the full headroom bedroom and big bathroom,and we kept the last LQ horse trailer for short trips.We dont haul the mules in the LQ trailer,just the golf kart and a "room" for the dogs when we get where we are going.We have a dedicated horse trailer for the mules.
The RV people know all this,why else would Monaco buy Bison horse trailer mfg? to garner the high end market share.The horse trailer people wont buy crap that needs constant repair and wont go many,many miles with almost no maintanence.Ive already done more work on our 315wp and we havent even used it yet,than on the '09 Merhow in 5 years.

[barrie1]

Originally Posted by X96mnn

Too many people coming up with silly ideas and drinking way too much koolaide. The chances of an engineer or someone who builds a unit getting into a defective unit is most likely less then 2.5%. 90% of the issues people talk about in my humble opinion come form the unit being hauled 4000 miles at 85 mph buy someone who does not care. It arrives at a dealer who is paid good $$$ to check it out who does not do it and it gets sold to you.

Everyone here has a chance to pay 15K more for a base unit or 100K more for your higher end units compared to mass manufactured units and get the quality you want and choose not too. Stop complaining about it!

At the end of the day 95% of us would not have the RV unit we have if we needed to spend the extra money, be happy and go camping.

I guess you are one of those guys that are happy with inferior workmanship.

Remember how bad American cars used to be back in the 80's and 90's.
Poor quality, that's what we are unhappy with. But we can't go to the Japanese or the German's for other purchases options with an R V.

All we are saying, design's are good but there is no quality control in the production process.

I'm an electrician. If I installed recessed lights in someone's kitchen, I will make sure all the lights are in line and are all gapped accordingly. Otherwise no matter how good the electrical installation is above the ceiling, the finish product will look terrible.

Who know's what the inside the wall quality is on our R V, if they can't get the stuff that show on the outside right.

We have a Brand new Forrest River Shockwave with no water pressure. The dealer service department says that our water pressure is normal. It's so low we can't use the sprayer on the kitchen faucet. Of course you don't find this stuff out until you go camping and showering etc. We were told to put in a bigger pump. Unbelievable.

Anyway, we like our unit but need to get all the unnecessary issues fixed.

[barrie1]

[QUOTE=SkipnTerri;838434]

Originally Posted by schrederman

Gents.... this isn't just about Forest River, but the entire industry. My TT has been OK, but I've had to fix way too much on it, simply because it's less hassle for me to do it than to hassle with the dealer and manufacturer.

With all the problems with the Forester, don't you think those issues should have been taken care of before you drove it off the lot? Good that most are done, but what about your time in dealing with them? Couldn't it have been better spent? I know mine could...

We'd prefer to drive off the lot with no issues, especially on a special order; however, they surfaced with use. For instance, how would one know there was too much cable making the DVD player blink? Or that the propane hose was kinked when the slide was in making the stove inoperable? How about missing mounting
hardware on the outdoor TV? Not all are in plain sight.

That't exactly what my complaints are about how bad the workmanship and quality control are. Amen.
All unnecessary.

[barrie1]

Originally Posted by pgandw

The different points of view and opinions are quite interesting. My background, FWIW, includes working in both boat and aircraft repair and maintenance, and experience with quality and reliability in aircraft.

Comparing quality of cars and trucks to RVs is only part of the picture. Only a motor home RV has the all the systems a car/truck does and more. Be that as it may, as many have pointed out, quality came to domestically produced cars because Toyota and Datsun and Mazda and Subaru were eating their lunch with their reputations for higher quality - at a higher price. Owners were willing to pay the extra money for the reputed higher quality. As domestic cars significantly improved their quality and could profitably stay at or under the Japanese price, the Japanese producers struggled. They countered by shifting a good portion of their manufacturing to the US.

Since the quality movement took hold in the autmotive industry, the price of new cars and trucks have generally risen faster than inflation. Building in reliability and quality generally costs more upfront, but can be cheaper over the long term. Radial tires, electronic ignition, better bearings throughout, upholstery and paint that lasts years are all significant improvements in my lifetime. In the '60s, most cars needed extensive work to go beyond 100K miles. Now most will go 200K with just routine maintenance.

The government mandated safey improvements, but has never mandated quality.

But an RV is much more like a home on wheels. So a better comparison might be mobile and pre-manufactured homes. Note that these are also generally despised for their low quality - and they don't get bounced on crummy roads nearly as much. If you want quality, you get a stick-built house (even then you may not get quality). If you want low price, you buy pre-manufactured.

Personally, do I wish my 2014 Rockwood A122 was built better? Yes, but only if it could be done without inflating the price. A little over $10K was all I was willing to pay for a toy that would only be used on average 4 days/month. I was shocked to see that the frames of the dinette seats were not square. And I had initial propane and water leaks (miscast propane line fitting and loose plumbing connections). But once the leaks were fixed, the camper does work as advertised. And my dealer did a great job with service, warranty, and recommendations.

Finally, I'm sure the door is open for somebody willing to start a company to build high quality RVs. There should be plenty of investors from this forum. Whether or not it can be done profitably is a very interesting question.

just my thoughts
Fred W
2014 Rockwood A122
2008 Hyundai Entourage (minivan)
camping Colorado, Nebraska, Wyoming (and maybe Utah) one weekend at a time

All understood and you make great points.
BUT, you wouldn't send a car or an R V out the door of the manufacture with loose lug nuts, so why with all the other issues we find.

I was told Warren Buffet owns Forrest River, I wonder how he would feel about getting out of bed onto the carpet in his new R V and having nails jabbing his bare feet. Just Saying....

[X96mnn]

Originally Posted by barrie1

I guess you are one of those guys that are happy with inferior workmanship.

Remember how bad American cars used to be back in the 80's and 90's.
Poor quality, that's what we are unhappy with. But we can't go to the Japanese or the German's for other purchases options with an R V.

All we are saying, design's are good but there is no quality control in the production process.

I'm an electrician. If I installed recessed lights in someone's kitchen, I will make sure all the lights are in line and are all gapped accordingly. Otherwise no matter how good the electrical installation is above the ceiling, the finish product will look terrible.

Who know's what the inside the wall quality is on our R V, if they can't get the stuff that show on the outside right.

We have a Brand new Forrest River Shockwave with no water pressure. The dealer service department says that our water pressure is normal. It's so low we can't use the sprayer on the kitchen faucet. Of course you don't find this stuff out until you go camping and showering etc. We were told to put in a bigger pump. Unbelievable.

Anyway, we like our unit but need to get all the unnecessary issues fixed.

I am one of those guys who is very satisfied with the value camper he received for his dollar.

All I am saying, do not ruin it for everyone with your wish of regulation or mandated quality. If your fine with spending 10k more today for a new car with better quality, (10k is just the extra you are paying for a car today after you take out the 12k in inflation amounts), that's fine. But there are many out there that if a camper that they needed cost 30k compared to 20k they could not afford it.

All I hear, or take from these arguments is a group of people, who will not spend an extra 10k on the same style camper with quality. Those people feel if they have to spend 10k more everyone should have to spend 10k more and it is not right. Make the decision on your own, do not have it forced on you and everyone else!

Sending you a PM on your water pressure. I may know what's wrong as I had the same issue in my first rvision.

[schrederman]

If I could get better quality for an extra $10K I'd be all in... You CAN'T! If you read the entirety of this thread you'd find that explained over and over. The fluff gets better for your extra $10K but it's the same trailer shoved out the door just as fast with just as many problems. Heck, I'm trying to spend an extra $20 - $30K more right now, but again it's the same crappy quality... As an old cud from West Texas described it... the same old woman in a new dress.

[BamaBob]

Originally Posted by barrie1

All understood and you make great points.
BUT, you wouldn't send a car or an R V out the door of the manufacture with loose lug nuts, so why with all the other issues we find.

I was told Warren Buffet owns Forrest River, I wonder how he would feel about getting out of bed onto the carpet in his new R V and having nails jabbing his bare feet. Just Saying....

Why did you not catch the loose lug nuts and nails in the carpet during your PDI? During our PDI, the tech demonstrated using a torque wrench and we actually checked each lug on all 4 tires.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by barrie1

All understood and you make great points.
BUT, you wouldn't send a car or an R V out the door of the manufacture with loose lug nuts, so why with all the other issues we find...

Because when I made the deal for our 2012, I kept the tires and wheels from my 2008 and actually watched them torque the lug nuts.

The lug nuts should have been part of YOUR PDI inspection.

[BamaBob]

Originally Posted by schrederman

If I could get better quality for an extra $10K I'd be all in... You CAN'T! If you read the entirety of this thread you'd find that explained over and over. The fluff gets better for your extra $10K but it's the same trailer shoved out the door just as fast with just as many problems. Heck, I'm trying to spend an extra $20 - $30K more right now, but again it's the same crappy quality... As an old cud from West Texas described it... the same old woman in a new dress.

Not so.

When we toured the plant that makes our Rockwood, we were told they complete 3-4 units per day.

Over at the Cedar Creek plant they complete A unit once every THREE days.

That's what the extra $20-30K gets you (in addition to higher quality amenities) A residential Whirlpool Refer is built to a higher standard than a 7CF Dometic, having a heat pump on the A/C costs more but makes the A/C more efficient, using screws over nails/staples means cabinets stay together and, BTW, using solid hardwood rather than particleboard means the screws stay in the wood. This stuff costs bucks and will be done in a $70K rig but not in a $30K rig - they can't - it is not economically feasible.

[schrederman]

So you say, but when I inspect these higher-dollar units closely, I see the same stuff that's in my 2012 unit I paid $25K for... and that was too much. I am not concerned about a heat pump. In fact from my experience with residential HPs, I'd rather not have one. I'd rather have a more substantial wall structure, frame and axles. And to Whirlpool quality... really? Again, not from my experience. My TT cabinets have just as much solid wood as the $50k TT I just looked at last weekend.


The number of units turned out per time frame has much to do with demand, and very little to do with quality. One brand I looked at has actual solid wood trim... the rest, regardless of price, use particle board covered with wood-grained plastic. The option of solid-surface counter tops is an expensive option. In fact it's amazingly so. If you price these per square foot, the price is outrageous... far more than quartz, granite, etc in your home. In fact I use the same stuff for making molds. If you knew how little it actually costs to make that stuff, you'd be a bit steamed, too.


I could go on and on. Instead, I'll just say that in my opinion, the manufacturers have some folks buffaloed... but I'm not one of them. I'll be a hard sell next year when I trade up.

[X96mnn]

Originally Posted by schrederman

If I could get better quality for an extra $10K I'd be all in... You CAN'T! If you read the entirety of this thread you'd find that explained over and over. The fluff gets better for your extra $10K but it's the same trailer shoved out the door just as fast with just as many problems. Heck, I'm trying to spend an extra $20 - $30K more right now, but again it's the same crappy quality... As an old cud from West Texas described it... the same old woman in a new dress.

Really??

You own a Surveyor SV-264 TT, looks like they cost around 20k
You could have bought a Black Rock 25RLS for 29,900

Black Rock is very similar in size and floor plan, weighs in at close to 2000pds more then your RV. Has heavier axels, customs built off road graded chassis and marine grade plywood but you didn't because it does not exist?

New 2015 Black Rock 25 RLS For Sale | Wetaskiwin AB

Now you may not have because these are harder to find as dealers tend to carry Thor or Forest River. They carry them because 95% of the people are not able or willing to pay for it. But quality does exist if you want it and can afford it. I can't afford it, I can afford what I have and very happy to own it even if I have to repair an item or two or 18 as I am sure some people would find.