The RV industry death spiral

[Wobbles]

Originally Posted by Mr Havercamp

Can they now?

RV Industry Death Spiral – Part 6: Associations can influence change | RV Daily Report

Now that was interesting reading.

[northstar1960]

Originally Posted by Mr Havercamp

Can they now?

RV Industry Death Spiral – Part 6: Associations can influence change | RV Daily Report

Here is a cut and paste of the most interesting couple of paragraphs in the latest offering.


"For the reasons alluded to in my other columns – the biggies being inability to get RVs serviced and product quality – the RV lifestyle is a dream of many until they buy one and run into the problems that force them out of the lifestyle as the fun dissipates.

RVIA is in the prime position as the leader of the industry’s manufacturers to dictate product quality as part of the seal requirements. Like the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, an RVIA seal should convey to consumers that the RV has been inspected, tested and is ready to be used. However, the seal only indicates that it has been constructed according to RVIA’s standards.

However, people cannot review RVIA’s standards, nor are they offered for sale on the association’s website. Therefore consumers really don’t know whether the RVs they buy are built to those standards. Some of the standards are available through other organizations, like the National Fire Protection Association. But, there is no one central location where consumers can find the standards dictating RV construction."

RVIA standards are a joke . it' only real purpose is to create an illusion of quality or that safe plumbing , electrical , building standards are being met and WE know they are not . it's nothing more then a slush fund for RV manufactures to say they meet certain requirements . WE either need federal requirements or an outside entity to set up something

[Oaklevel]

I can say we have owned 4 RVs overs the years 22' to 36' Last two are 5th wheels. None were in the dealer more than a day or so and have had no major issues. I will say the older Terry was the worst quality but that was almost 30 years ago.

Our dealer has changed brands several times due to issues. (Not all Forest River)

[BandJCarm]

Originally Posted by bclemens

That's the tricky part. For sure, we discuss with them the issue, what went wrong and encourage them to involve us sooner in the future. We can send out a service rep to do training, offer in house training, be more proactive on our end in asking more questions. I think we have given the consumer more direct access to get in touch with us before it becomes a problem. We send a letter with every unit asking the customer to contact us directly if their coach is out of service too long. While we all wish there was one, there is no silver bullet. Some state laws give us little to no authority to force a dealer to do anything.

Sad part is we sometimes see this wth really big, previously good dealers. I think just like a lot of RV related things, the infrastructure is taxed. Not enough qualified staff to handle the issues as they should be handled.

My immediate response has been to raise prices so we can put in the best components we can, pay employees more and provide the service people expect. We'll see how that goes.

Not fighting you. I don't even have a motorhome and I search for every word you say. I appreciate your input here vastly.

But........um..........I'm no lawyer, but if you have a contract, either it's written poorly and too unilaterally on dealer's side, which is your fault......or he's breaching it. I am having a hard time (though NOT disputing you, just being incredulous) that any state law stops you from taking hard, hard measures against some of these dealers I read about.

Sorta like interstate entrance ramps.........those, and RV dealers......should be about 2 in every state. Lots of exits, but only two entrances! Things would run a lot smoother.........

And yes, I do understand the direct relationship between overall quality and pricing.

But thank you for all your input.

[KatanaPilot]

Originally Posted by bclemens

That's the tricky part. For sure, we discuss with them the issue, what went wrong and encourage them to involve us sooner in the future. We can send out a service rep to do training, offer in house training, be more proactive on our end in asking more questions. I think we have given the consumer more direct access to get in touch with us before it becomes a problem. We send a letter with every unit asking the customer to contact us directly if their coach is out of service too long. While we all wish there was one, there is no silver bullet. Some state laws give us little to no authority to force a dealer to do anything.

Sad part is we sometimes see this wth really big, previously good dealers. I think just like a lot of RV related things, the infrastructure is taxed. Not enough qualified staff to handle the issues as they should be handled.

My immediate response has been to raise prices so we can put in the best components we can, pay employees more and provide the service people expect. We'll see how that goes.

I can't help but ask - is this because of the record numbers of RV's being produced or record numbers of RV's with issues? In the automotive industry, I don't see the dealer service infrastructure being taxed - despite record numbers of vehicles being sold. Perhaps this is because the domestic automotive industry has finally embraced quality being job one (and maybe because the lemon laws actually have teeth). And why is the RV industry lobbying so hard against lemon laws?

[northstar1960]

Originally Posted by bclemens

I can only speak for our division, we do allow for diagnostic time. However we also expect the dealer to call when they are stumped and have certified techs that can diagnose problems in a timely manner. It irritates me
When a customer calls, frustrated because the dealer failed to repair their issue after three tries. When we check the file, not one warranty claim was filed, (dealer behind) and we have no calls. We end up fixing it ourselves to try and salvage the situation and have to repair their repair in most cases.

you do ! what division ? not once was diag ever offer for me for any unit any brand . did get some from thor and LCI . it's not the techs . it's the system put in force by the manufactures . most all diag is done in timely manners. Techs spend more time taking photos , ordering parts that always seem to be wrong or broken and waiting for warranty approval . of course it could all be different if the good work started at the factory and there was some actual quality control . maybe it's the way the workers are paid , rush rush rush get-er done . as always it's bad management not a lack of skilled workers

[northstar1960]

Originally Posted by bclemens

That's the tricky part. For sure, we discuss with them the issue, what went wrong and encourage them to involve us sooner in the future. We can send out a service rep to do training, offer in house training, be more proactive on our end in asking more questions. I think we have given the consumer more direct access to get in touch with us before it becomes a problem. We send a letter with every unit asking the customer to contact us directly if their coach is out of service too long. While we all wish there was one, there is no silver bullet. Some state laws give us little to no authority to force a dealer to do anything.

Sad part is we sometimes see this wth really big, previously good dealers. I think just like a lot of RV related things, the infrastructure is taxed. Not enough qualified staff to handle the issues as they should be handled.

My immediate response has been to raise prices so we can put in the best components we can, pay employees more and provide the service people expect. We'll see how that goes.

I have to hand it to you for coming on here and listening to the issues . your a brave man . nothing i write is directed to you personally . thanks for being here
Now i know the dealers have major management issues . but as a manufacture they can control the dealer . simply do not let them sale their units . they either fall inline , offer the good tech service . it's the after the sale that counts and service should be a # 1 priority .now you don't want to give up market share by losing dealers . but the techs can't keep up with all the warranty work .Example we had 3 winniebagos adventures come it all brand new and the slides didn't work on any of them . the techs shouldn't be seeing these units for at least 3 to 5 yrs .
and yes by all means pay the techs and workers more . charge some more for the units and make a little less profit a little give and take . but what manufacture will take the step to offer a first class unit for a little more bucks . back to not wanting to lose market share !
i'm sure the market will bear the extra cost of a well built ,properly built , clean solid unit where things actually work .

[MillerTime]

I find all of this very informative, interesting and inspiring.
(I'm sorry if you take this the wrong way....but Firemen, EMTs and Police have their own place in this imperfect world, as do repair shops.)

I have decided that all of the problematic issues that have been plaguing the rv industry, have just opened a huge opportunity up for the private sector, where timelyness and quality repairs can be a profitable endeavor.

I have had a strong construction and automotive background in Comercial and residential construction, and automotive, truck and industrial mechanical and collision repairs at dealers and private companies.
This along with the need for quality and timely repairs to rvs and boats, the lack of places that can do it, insurance companies not having a "book" for most of the repair procedures needed to work on this stuff and me living in a very central location both state wise and nationally........has me actually looking to do something about all the "problems".
I'm opening my own repair facility for service and collision repairs for boats and rvs. Granted we are in the land purchasing, rezoning, and equipment purchasing stages....but I'm working in that direction.
We will see how it all works out with doing manufacturer warranty work, but I'm sure we will get plenty of dealer bodyshop work, as I've been asked for years to do some.

Im hoping this Millennial can do something to help the industry and to also fund our future retirement! There are about 10k boomers retiring every day......thats going to be a lot of rvs hitting the road and needing something worked on properly!!

[dan4jeepin]

I'm new to the RV life but I agreed with most of his opinions on quality and repair issues. Where he lost me is on the campgrounds. Seems he wants tons of amenities, quality web design, free spaces whenever he wants one and cheap. Uhhhh I've talked with and been in meeting with many small campground owners and most are just trying to keep from going out of business. Realize that many campgrounds only make money during the summer season so they have to make a good profit to then be able to upkeep the property in the winter while they bring in no cash.

[HappyGuy]

Originally Posted by northstar1960

you do ! what division ?

Dynamax

[bclemens]

Sorry...so many posts, so little time (I only got a notification after about 6 posts). I'll try and address the general consensus without all the quotes.

1. As for contracts...it is a commonly misunderstood issue. There is no franchise agreement with RV's (some tried and it failed miserably). So yes, we can not sell units to a dealer...but let's say that product is on the dealer's state license (which is separate from our dealer agreement and we have to authorize). We can stop selling them, but in some states, as long as that product is on their dealer license, we can't really sell it to anyone else either. We can take a hard stance, but really have no way to add teeth to it. Some states are no problem...we can cancel a dealer in a heartbeat. Some states, Texas for instance, there was a time when some manufacturers refused to do business in the state because the state laws were so skewed towards the dealer.

2. As for qualified staff...I think it has to do with the way the business model is set up. Throughput efficiency I would say. If you are a Ford dealer and you're selling a record number of cars, you can hire staff fairly easily and they probably have a certified tech program. You're seeing the same stuff, day in and day out. You have a limited number of systems to troubleshoot and repair. For an RV dealer however....you need techs that know plumbing, electrical, heating, cooling, 12V DC, 120V, AC, residential fridges, absorption fridges, suspension, slideouts, etc, etc, etc. AND, you need to know this not for one brand....but sometimes 50 brands. I'd be curious to see the total number of dealers for each industry including the support side (service centers only). 17 million cars sold. 365,000 RV's shipped in 2015....AND unlike cars which need service YEAR round, RV's get used primarily 6 months out of the year. Imagine a good portion of those 17 million cars all dusted off from winter storage and everyone trying to get them serviced in the month of March-April-May (also peak selling season) so they can take them out? So I think it is a combination of everything. But to say "Auto's do it, why can't RV's" I think over simplify's the issue. Not that there isn't a solution...just not one that is a one size fits all. Plus, you're trying to "right size" your staff for winter months and yet have those same techs working 24/7 in the summer. I think the RV industry fights hard against Lemon laws, because they try to lump them in with automotive. just like certain impact issues...we fight. Not because we want them to be unsafe...its because the rear passenger ejection issues on a Ford Fiesta, is not the same as a 40' Class A motorhome, so why would we try and treat them the same.

Having said all of that...we are trying to balance things. Provide higher end components, pay employees more, (even thought the labor pool has dried up), build better. I don't think the sky is falling, even though some only see the doom and gloom side of things. I also think misery loves company...so we see a much higher percentage on the boards. I know I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee and the only reason I am ever on a forum is when I have an issue. I'm never there to talk about how much I love the uConnect system, or the interior....I do tell people verbally however.

[lgray]

Originally Posted by bclemens

That's the tricky part. For sure, we discuss with them the issue, what went wrong and encourage them to involve us sooner in the future. We can send out a service rep to do training, offer in house training, be more proactive on our end in asking more questions. I think we have given the consumer more direct access to get in touch with us before it becomes a problem. We send a letter with every unit asking the customer to contact us directly if their coach is out of service too long. While we all wish there was one, there is no silver bullet. Some state laws give us little to no authority to force a dealer to do anything.

Sad part is we sometimes see this wth really big, previously good dealers. I think just like a lot of RV related things, the infrastructure is taxed. Not enough qualified staff to handle the issues as they should be handled.

My immediate response has been to raise prices so we can put in the best components we can, pay employees more and provide the service people expect. We'll see how that goes.

I can vouch Dynamax communication with dealers. On two occasions, the factory worked with a local dealer, that did not carry Dynamax Trilogy’s to not only give authorization, but to ship the parts in advance…big parts, wall board/assembly materials as well as a hydraulic jack.As a result, both rather significant repairs were made in less than a ½ a day on both occasions.

[northstar1960]

Originally Posted by HappyGuy

Dynamax

Well then yours is the only division at FR that pays for diag , warranty writes up, parts ordering , cause they don't in any other

[bclemens]

We certainly have flat rates for some items, but we also know some things take time.

The other items you mention are overhead. I have the same thing...when a supplier part fails, they pay for the part (occasionally labor)...but what I mark up all those parts is what pays the overhead. Now, if I have a supplier that is eating up all my overhead in an unbalanced manner...guess what, I change suppliers or get a better part. Same thing dealers do. If a product comes in with too many issues and is costing them too much in overhead support, they should drop the product.

[Oakman]

Thanks for posting your insight on the RV industry bclemens. I appreciate your participation in these forums.

[bclemens]

No problem. I am a consumer too and I try to approach things as I would want to be treated. The more I know, the better I feel about the process, so I just want provide some insight.

We do try, very hard to go above and beyond. I think I have mentioned however that for some reason, many consumer's today see this goodwill as an opportunity to take advantage. (bad apple spoils the bunch? mfg and consumer I think)

Example: Customer had an issue with a unit, we set up a dealer (within a day) to do the repair but he wanted to bring it to the factory. Brought it by the plant, we fixed a few things and mentioned something else we saw offered to fix it. Said, not to worry about it, it was no big deal had to get home. Got it home and it became a big deal. Had a couple of other issues that became MOUNTAINS. It was all our fault, and he's already had to bring it back to the factory once. (Uh, we had a dealer set up, you chose to bring it here it didn't need to come back).

Long story short, we sent a drive away company (same ones that delivers our units every single day) to go pick up the unit from his residence. Driver gets there at 5pm. Customer asks...its 5 pm, what will you do Dynamax is closed. Driver said, I will take it to our holding yard and transfer it over in the morning. Customer refused to release the unit...wanted us to put the driver up in a hotel, so that in the morning he could take it straight to the plant. Would only release the unit when my head of service agreed to meet the driver at the plant, 9pm at night....and of course all its going to do is store in our holding yard until the morning (which we tried telling him).

When we dig into it...the first two "trip ending" major factory flaws, were user related issues, not factory defects.

I know that there is story after story of poor mfg service and I can relate story after story of consumer gone insane....but I think in the end, they are really the exception to the norm...they just happen to be the ones that get the most media coverage.

[stevejahr]

Sacred cows... What I believe:

1. Our society overall is more interested in getting things as cheap as possible. I do it much of the time and so does everybody else. This is NOT an RV industry issue.
2. Our society overall is more interested in bells and whistles than functionality. This too is NOT an RV industry issue.
3. Free market economics mean that manufacturers are trying their best to offer the product that will sell the most by balancing features and price. They are selling what the market seems to want, after all if you have complaints you must have chosen and bought the product.
4. Ditto for dealers. Again you chose where to purchase and could have gone somewhere else.
5. The internet will always have 100x more detracting opinions than supporting opinions for *anything*. While there are problem units how many units have no problems? We will NEVER know but everyone is sure they must be rare just because you do not hear about them.
6. Today's RVs are more of a little house and, well, have you bought a new house? I have bought a few and they all had issues not unlike many of the RVs.

My RV is not perfect but has never been in to the dealer. I don't take it to the dealer because they are a couple hours away and because I am a throwback to another time and believe in fixing stuff myself. I do not have to pay myself so I know I can often do it better than having somebody else do it who may care more about fast than right (see #1 above). And I like learning about how stuff works or is put together. I would probably be a good RV service tech because I know at least something about most of the systems in an RV, but I doubt the pay/income would meet my current standard of living. Maybe someday when my high tech gig runs out

That reminds me, I need to fix that front power stabilizer jack that I took the motor out of...

Death Spiral my butt.

[stevejahr]

Originally Posted by bclemens

No problem. I am a consumer too and I try to approach things as I would want to be treated. The more I know, the better I feel about the process, so I just want provide some insight.

We do try, very hard to go above and beyond. I think I have mentioned however that for some reason, many consumer's today see this goodwill as an opportunity to take advantage. (bad apple spoils the bunch? mfg and consumer I think)

Example: Customer had an issue with a unit, we set up a dealer (within a day) to do the repair but he wanted to bring it to the factory. Brought it by the plant, we fixed a few things and mentioned something else we saw offered to fix it. Said, not to worry about it, it was no big deal had to get home. Got it home and it became a big deal. Had a couple of other issues that became MOUNTAINS. It was all our fault, and he's already had to bring it back to the factory once. (Uh, we had a dealer set up, you chose to bring it here it didn't need to come back).

Long story short, we sent a drive away company (same ones that delivers our units every single day) to go pick up the unit from his residence. Driver gets there at 5pm. Customer asks...its 5 pm, what will you do Dynamax is closed. Driver said, I will take it to our holding yard and transfer it over in the morning. Customer refused to release the unit...wanted us to put the driver up in a hotel, so that in the morning he could take it straight to the plant. Would only release the unit when my head of service agreed to meet the driver at the plant, 9pm at night....and of course all its going to do is store in our holding yard until the morning (which we tried telling him).

When we dig into it...the first two "trip ending" major factory flaws, were user related issues, not factory defects.

I know that there is story after story of poor mfg service and I can relate story after story of consumer gone insane....but I think in the end, they are really the exception to the norm...they just happen to be the ones that get the most media coverage.

Amen to crazy people. I have a friend who works for a tier 2 international car company as an area representative. He is evaluated and paid based on customer survey results on dealers among other factors. I hear lots of horror stories about dealers and customers complaints not unlike this.

[trbomax]

I 'm a bit late getting in on this discussion,but the biggest thing that I really cant understand is why we as cosumers must accept less (in terms of fit/finish) today than we got 20,30 even 40 yrs ago. I will mention some things that absoutly make me and my wife furious when we walk into our 2016. The lack of any visible finish on the wood just drives me up the wall every time I touch it and leave white streaks on the dark wood.It was stained but you will never convince me that there is any kind of top coat on it. There are visable staples EVERYWHERE,they were smeared over with some kind of putty stick that was a completely different color,and then rubbed with a rag or finger,makeing the smears even worse.There is a total lack of any sealants or adhesives in any of the cabnetry.They are stapled only.I can pull the fronts off the doors and if the doors are off the hinges they could be easily twisted apart.I have gaps and doors that fit differently every time we move the unit,showing white wood at the edges.The factory "fixed" this by pounding them back together after useing a paint stick (magic marker?) on the visible edges.The acess panel for the water pump,which should have been a door,is so out of square that I can push a nail file past it on two sides.It was "held in place" by 4 oval head #8 screws,onl 2 of which hit anything.I could write pages but the point is,our first RV was a new 8' slide-in camper made by "Sportsman Dream".We bought it new in 1970 for $1995.00,I still have the invoice.That unit had REAL wood interior,no ugly staples showing all over,glued and mitered corners and a very nice semi gloss finish on the oak interior.We ran that thing all over the US and canada,even doing the entire trans-canada highway in 1978 with it perched on our 1970 f-250 4x4 highboy,pulling a boat.In 1983 we trade up to a new F250 4x4 ext cab dually and bought a 11.5' coachman to ride in the box.The quality on the coachman was every bit as good as the Sportsmans Dream.We ran that coachman untill 1995 when the kids colledge signaled the end of camping for a while. But when we were able,a Layton 19' TT was in the drive way.This was around 1997,and the Layton was a complete piece of crap.It literally fell apart from going down the road in a 3 year period.Once again,we were thru with campers untill 2010 when we bought an all aluminum Merhow horse trailer with a 9' short wall liveing quarter.This trailer was "furniture grade " inside. Solid oak,even the counter top was laminated oak,no ply or flake board. It had soft touch walls and cielings,nothing like the paper covered cardboard in the Cherokee.We still have it but sadly wanted more roomin the LQ.We went downstate to Haylett RV two years ago to look at a 4 horse,16' shortwall bison with a super slide.It was black/polished aluminum and a beautiful trailer.Thats the ONLY reason we ended up at Haylett. Nancy did not like the crawl up bunk so we looked at fifth wheel toy haulers and so here we are now.
I sorta started rambling about the quality thing and maybe got OT a bit,but I feel better!

(edit) FWIW,I wouldnt go back to Haylett except maybe to dump my holing tanks in thier parking lot.

[Mr Havercamp]

Here we go boys and girls...................its a doosey

RV Industry Death Spiral – Part 7: RV owners share the blame | RV Daily Report


Nuke me a large bag please, butter and garlic!