The RV industry death spiral

[BamaBob]

Originally Posted by Mr Havercamp

Personally the last thing I would ever want to do is be packed tight into some wide open Indiana fairground, in the middle of the hottest month of the year, but if that's what floats your boat have at it. I certainly do not expect anything for free as that's never been my style.

Point of clarification. The FROG Rally in Goshen is much more than maintenance. The seminars, how to sessions, vendor areas, side trips and the opportunity to meet owners of the same RV you have - and other Forest River Owners in general is - for us at least - the BIG draw to the Rally.

Yes they fix your rig at no cost - a decided plus - especially last year: The tech noticed that our DS wall was delaminating We still work and we could not stay after to have the wall replaced. So, what did Forest River do? had a transport company com to our house, get the 5er, take it to Goshen., replace the wall (and several other components they discovered as well) and transport the 5er back to our home in Alabama. That my friends is customer service! And a good reason to attend the rally

Then again, if you are not already registered, you won't be attending this year: the rally sold out within 48 hours of opening

[Oakman]

Originally Posted by Mr Havercamp

Personally the last thing I would ever want to do is be packed tight into some wide open Indiana fairground, in the middle of the hottest month of the year, but if that's what floats your boat have at it. I certainly do not expect anything for free as that's never been my style.

When I went down the Rockwood road I did not anticipate the 6/7 month journey it would take to get something delivered in an acceptable enough condition that I would actually buy it. I especially can't wait for the part of the editorials telling how the consumer is partly to blame.

As far as our Rockwood, we got through our 2nd outing with it, a 10 nighter, without anything breaking. That's sort of a bonus I guess.

With the attitude you displayed in this post I have to wonder why you even own an RV. If I were that disgusted I would stay in rental cabins and motels rather than a camper.

BTW, the rally in Goshen is about meeting and making new friends. I look forward to it every year and have a great time. I’m thinking you might prefer the hermit style camping rather than have fun and meet new RVers.

[KatanaPilot]

Originally Posted by Oakman

With the attitude you displayed in this post I have to wonder why you even own an RV. If I were that disgusted I would stay in rental cabins and motels rather than a camper.

BTW, the rally in Goshen is about meeting and making new friends. I look forward to it every year and have a great time. I’m thinking you might prefer the hermit style camping rather than have fun and meet new RVers.

For some folks, this is a part of the experience. For others (myself included), it's simply about the travel and the sightseeing. I don't consider myself a hermit and I certainly enjoy talking to others at various campgrounds around the country - but that is very much secondary and not at all a goal. Personally, I don't need the meet and greet part of RV'ing to enjoy it. I want a comfortable and reliable means to travel and sleep. Given the money we spend on these things, that should be routine - but in many cases, it is not.

[lgray]

Somehow, as usually happens, this thread has turned into a personal attack. As a reminder, the original reference to Goshen was that it should not be necessary to have to drag your rig that far to fix what are often times issues that were created by the manufacturer, if not created by, certainly part of their fiduciary custody & control.

[bclemens]

My only issue with the article was "a 360 Siphon is an effective $10 part that can eliminate RV odors". most mfgs don't use

#1, Dynamax has them standard on all models.
#2. Certain people still debate their effectiveness. So its not like its some "no brainer" that would be asinine and negligent not to install. Maybe its a gimmick...but for $10 I suppose we'll take the chance.
#3. That "low cost siphon 360" just happens to be a LCI product...which he bashes later.

While I don't think the heart of the article is far off, there are way too many personal opinions that seem to comes across as stating fact.

"People who develop interior and exterior decoration schemes for RVs must all graduate from the same designer school. Can anyone else explain why they all look almost identical regardless of manufacturer or brand". (We build what sells) I'd love to do a unit with white wood cabinets, dark floors and medium counter. Popular in residential, risky for RV's that tend to navigate towards "safe and reliable"

OK, so maybe not my only issue.

"But, the (supplier) companies get a bad reputation when the products fail when used by consumers. When that happens, who gets the blame for “making junk?” It’s not the RV manufacturer, that’s for sure. The company name on the refrigerator pays the price for product failures."

Not sure I agree...I think there are posts on here right now I can link to where the customer says specifically "I don't care what is on the part...we bought a Dynamax and its up to you to stand behind (their product) it".

Says no one in RV management can name a "blogger". I actually follow several.
No one participates with retail customers. I think the quantity of posts proves otherwise. (It doesn't prove that I don't suck at it, but at least it proves we try)

While I know there are exceptions to every rule and its just a general post about the state of the industry...I find it interesting that he specifically names Grand Design as a positive.

[Kenny kustom]

Originally Posted by bclemens

". (We build what sells) I'd love to do a unit with white wood cabinets, dark floors and medium counter. Popular in residential, risky for RV's that tend to navigate towards "safe and reliable"



.

I would love to see that. Enough of the flower patterns.

2016 Sabre 36QBOK
2015 Ram 3500 CUMMINS

[Mr Havercamp]

Originally Posted by bclemens

My only issue with the article was "a 360 Siphon is an effective $10 part that can eliminate RV odors". most mfgs don't use

#1, Dynamax has them standard on all models.
#2. Certain people still debate their effectiveness. So its not like its some "no brainer" that would be asinine and negligent not to install. Maybe its a gimmick...but for $10 I suppose we'll take the chance.
#3. That "low cost siphon 360" just happens to be a LCI product...which he bashes later.

While I don't think the heart of the article is far off, there are way too many personal opinions that seem to comes across as stating fact.

"People who develop interior and exterior decoration schemes for RVs must all graduate from the same designer school. Can anyone else explain why they all look almost identical regardless of manufacturer or brand". (We build what sells) I'd love to do a unit with white wood cabinets, dark floors and medium counter. Popular in residential, risky for RV's that tend to navigate towards "safe and reliable"

OK, so maybe not my only issue.

"But, the (supplier) companies get a bad reputation when the products fail when used by consumers. When that happens, who gets the blame for “making junk?” It’s not the RV manufacturer, that’s for sure. The company name on the refrigerator pays the price for product failures."

Not sure I agree...I think there are posts on here right now I can link to where the customer says specifically "I don't care what is on the part...we bought a Dynamax and its up to you to stand behind (their product) it".

Says no one in RV management can name a "blogger". I actually follow several.
No one participates with retail customers. I think the quantity of posts proves otherwise. (It doesn't prove that I don't suck at it, but at least it proves we try)

While I know there are exceptions to every rule and its just a general post about the state of the industry...I find it interesting that he specifically names Grand Design as a positive.

Thanks for posting, it's interesting to get the thoughts of someone in the industry in regards to the articles.

Why do you find it interesting that he mentions Grand Design as a positive? I have so far met 3 different people at campgrounds with G.D. products and every one was not only ecstatic with the rig, but with the service, support, communication, and the dealer. I may of looked more into G.D. myself but they do not offer a hybrid.

[Oaklevel]

The interesting thing about the article is that this article could have been written in 1988 many of the same issues...... but actually our older Terrys 1973 and 1988 were actually manufactured with less quality components than our 2006 and 2013 Pumas are / were.

[hondo]

I love the looks and floor plan of the Windjammer 3008. Someday if we could afford it I would love to get one. But with all the negatives about the newer RV's it makes me wonder if I should think about getting a newer one. We bought our tt in april 2010 and use it a lot. I haven't had any problems. Have only had to do maintenance-resealing, brakes, tires and 1 awning spring.

[bclemens]

Only interesting in that he mentions one positive by name. (that I noticed)

He groups everyone into his one-size-fits-all assumptions, but makes an exception in this one case. I'm just not sure how much actual research went into this other than word of mouth.

Things like that make me question motive. One time, another "RV Industry" site, did a HUGE article on the resurgence of Class C motorhomes. Went through all the brands except one. Mentioned Fleetwood 4 times. At the time of the article, Fleetwood had retail sold 150 Class C motorhomes (after bankruptcy, and really the opposite of resurgance) . Sunseeker, which was the #1 retailing Class C at the time had sold about 1700 motorhomes. Not one time did he mention Sunseeker in the article. When I called out the publisher for the omission...he tried to say it was a contract article and the guy maybe didn't do the research that was needed, then admitted that it was basically because Forest River did not advertise with them. They had asked us several times, but we refused and he was tired of giving free publicity. Mind, you this is a publication that claims to be a news source for RV professionals.

[Mr Havercamp]

Originally Posted by bclemens

Only interesting in that he mentions one positive by name. (that I noticed)

He groups everyone into his one-size-fits-all assumptions, but makes an exception in this one case. I'm just not sure how much actual research went into this other than word of mouth.

Things like that make me question motive. One time, another "RV Industry" site, did a HUGE article on the resurgence of Class C motorhomes. Went through all the brands except one. Mentioned Fleetwood 4 times. At the time of the article, Fleetwood had retail sold 150 Class C motorhomes (after bankruptcy, and really the opposite of resurgance) . Sunseeker, which was the #1 retailing Class C at the time had sold about 1700 motorhomes. Not one time did he mention Sunseeker in the article. When I called out the publisher for the omission...he tried to say it was a contract article and the guy maybe didn't do the research that was needed, then admitted that it was basically because Forest River did not advertise with them. They had asked us several times, but we refused and he was tired of giving free publicity. Mind, you this is a publication that claims to be a news source for RV professionals.

Interesting, thanks for the response again.

I'm not sure of his motive either although I have experienced a lot of things he describes personally, and a lot of the things he mentions can be found on many internet boards in post after post. If anything it seems he has a bigger hair up his keister for Thor than he does for F.R. for what that's worth It would take a heck of a lot more than his article to ever have any effect on giving Grand Design a push against either.

[Oakman]

While the RV industry could do a better job in a lot of areas, it is hardly in a death spiral. The blogger makes some great points but there is too much BS and unsubstantiated statements that show he’s not nearly as knowledgeable as he puts on.

As to the death spiral, don’t make me laugh. Baby Boomers are just starting to retire and many have the urge to travel in an RV. The industry has a good 15 years before they have to worry about a slowdown in sales, unless of course there is a major recession and high gas prices the way it was in 2007 – 08.

No, I won’t be selling my stock in Thor Industries anytime soon. It’s a dividend paying stock that just keeps going up.

[BandJCarm]

10,000 of us old farts are retiring EVERY SINGLE DAY!!!

That's a fact, not a blog opinion.

8,308 of 'em are buying an RV (THAT, btw, is an opinion)!!

I like mine. It may fall apart next week, but so may my truck. (Nah, the truck won't, it's a chevy! LOL). But I think it's fine. I see a lot of things I'd change. But every one would raise the price, I guarantee. I'm at the TOP of my affordability just to get what I wanted as well built as possible.

I think the RV industry will look very different in 10 years. But for now, I think it's adequate.

I have one question......and it is a serious one, not frivolous. What does Warren Buffet think of his company???

[Oaklevel]

Originally Posted by Oakman

While the RV industry could do a better job in a lot of areas, it is hardly in a death spiral. The blogger makes some great points but there is too much BS and unsubstantiated statements that show he’s not nearly as knowledgeable as he puts on.

As to the death spiral, don’t make me laugh. Baby Boomers are just starting to retire and many have the urge to travel in an RV. The industry has a good 15 years before they have to worry about a slowdown in sales, unless of course there is a major recession and high gas prices the way it was in 2007 – 08.

No, I won’t be selling my stock in Thor Industries anytime soon. It’s a dividend paying stock that just keeps going up.

I agree with you 100%.................... but also think today's RVs are for the most part better built than those of the 1980s and even 1970s. I do not see any huge quality differences..........

[bclemens]

the voice of reason bus apparently just showed up.

[ShermanD]

Originally Posted by Oakman

With the attitude you displayed in this post I have to wonder why you even own an RV. If I were that disgusted I would stay in rental cabins and motels rather than a camper.

BTW, the rally in Goshen is about meeting and making new friends. I look forward to it every year and have a great time. I’m thinking you might prefer the hermit style camping rather than have fun and meet new RVers.

there is a HUGE difference between enjoying the great outdoors and overnighting, weekending, or vacationing in an RV Resort.

I can sit on my deck and enjoy this view anytime I feel like it, sleep in my queen sized bed, peruse the internet, watch cable tv, and be within a half hour of all the nightlife one would ever want, so why would I want to take a vacation and do exactly the same thing.

We bought our Sunseeker so we could go places away from the crowds! To take our bikes where we could ride without having to deal with crazy city drivers. So we could listen to the silence, watch the stars, and hear the wind blow threw the trees.

We have no interest in going to an RV Resort to play bingo. lounge around the pool or brag about how cool our RV is.

Each person gets into the RV Scene for a different reason. Showing disdain because they do not get into it for the same reason you do is rather childish!

[BamaBob]

Originally Posted by bclemens

My only issue with the article was "a 360 Siphon is an effective $10 part that can eliminate RV odors". most mfgs don't use

#1, Dynamax has them standard on all models.
#2. Certain people still debate their effectiveness. So its not like its some "no brainer" that would be asinine and negligent not to install. Maybe its a gimmick...but for $10 I suppose we'll take the chance.
#3. That "low cost siphon 360" just happens to be a LCI product...which he bashes later.

While I don't think the heart of the article is far off, there are way too many personal opinions that seem to comes across as stating fact.

"People who develop interior and exterior decoration schemes for RVs must all graduate from the same designer school. Can anyone else explain why they all look almost identical regardless of manufacturer or brand". (We build what sells) I'd love to do a unit with white wood cabinets, dark floors and medium counter. Popular in residential, risky for RV's that tend to navigate towards "safe and reliable"

<SNIP>

While I know there are exceptions to every rule and its just a general post about the state of the industry...I find it interesting that he specifically names Grand Design as a positive.

Berks come standard with a LCI Siphon 360 as well and for my money I would not be without one! We did not have one installed on or last RV (a 5th Wheel) and there would be times (especially if you had the fantastic fan on) when flushing the toilet - WOO HOO!! We installed a LCI 360 vent and those problems went away! Glad to see they are standard on Dynamax (then again you guys are a top tier coach!)

Décor: We do like the lighter woods as well - when we ordered our Berkshire we opted for the "Exotic Cherry" (natural stained cherry wood) over the "Executive Cherry (almost mahogany IMO). Why? it makes the coach look too dark - even with all the windows we have.

And, BTW, a Dynamex DX3 costs more than most other Class C's because it is a top of the line Class C. Seems specious comparing a 5th wheel to a motor coach!

Industry in a death spiral? Our dealer told us he can't keep Berkshires on the lot! I think the data belie his commentary

[Mr Havercamp]

Originally Posted by Oaklevel

I agree with you 100%.................... but also think today's RVs are for the most part better built than those of the 1980s and even 1970s. I do not see any huge quality differences..........

You may be correct. But I noticed the quality difference between our 2017 and the 2013 I sold last fall. When I bought the 2013 I noticed the quality difference between it and the 2011 we traded. I am not talking components (although the jury is still out on our Dometic Oriental DMR702 fridge in the 2017). I am talking general workmanship, fit and finish. Its not one brand or another its across the board and I see it at the shows. When the first Roo they delivered us last December showed up with many issues which we ultimately rejected I was stuck. I had sold that 2013 3 weeks prior. If that 2013 would of still been in the driveway I doubt I would now have this 2017.

[bclemens]

I'll be the first to admit that Dynamax is not where we want to be in quality or in customer service, but every decision we make is gauged by how it will get us to that ultimate goal. Dealer development, supplier, etc. Cost is only one factor, reliability and ease of use weigh VERY heavily in our decisions.

This article makes it seem like either the industry does not know or they do know and don't care. He leaves no room for middle ground, (even after the head honchos admitted that we need to do more). Maybe the truth (and from my perspective it clearly is that way) that the industry is lacking in manpower, we know we can do better and we are trying to make fundamental changes to do so, but like steering a cruise ship...you make tiny adjustments or you ending up heading in a direction that no amount of correction will save you from.

[B and B]

Originally Posted by Mr Havercamp

I find the appeal of that interesting also. I did not buy a Rockwood Roo because I am in love with Forest River or want to join some group. I had done my research or so I had thought. Frankly when I traded in a one year old 2010 Palomino Y4124 popup that was the most shoddily constructed POS ever made I swore at the time I would never buy another Forest River product.

Personally the last thing I would ever want to do is be packed tight into some wide open Indiana fairground, in the middle of the hottest month of the year, but if that's what floats your boat have at it. I certainly do not expect anything for free as that's never been my style.

When I went down the Rockwood road I did not anticipate the 6/7 month journey it would take to get something delivered in an acceptable enough condition that I would actually buy it. I especially can't wait for the part of the editorials telling how the consumer is partly to blame.

As far as our Rockwood, we got through our 2nd outing with it, a 10 nighter, without anything breaking. That's sort of a bonus I guess.

Hello Mr Havercamp,

To address one comment you made. Some of use enjoy the comraderie of actually sitting in the Fairground with some really great people! Many who post here on daily basis. I can call many good friends now that we enjoy the time we spend with each other in the very same packed hot Fairground even if there is a muck pile or overturned golf carts close by.

As far as the article the guy who wrote it has no idea what reality is, I too have read his diatribes in the past. I can sit by the 401 in Ontario for 30 minutes and see 5 or 10 RV's making their way east. There is no shortage of new rigs being bought in Canada. Camp On and live with life's little troubles.

As far as quality, a 1971 24 Ft Travel Trailer had a broken frame and spring hanger first trip out. I learned how to arc weld with my father and we fixed it better than the factory. Quality has improved from my first 1982 TT to the 2008 to the 2011 to the 2013.


Brian