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Old 07-15-2016, 11:00 PM   #61
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Around here, bookings open in April.

If you don't book, within the first hour of opening, you're sol for pretty much the whole summer.


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Old 07-15-2016, 11:08 PM   #62
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FL has some great Claass A CGs but I sold it for a 5er. Many parks are like sardine cans. Many are left over from the 60s and 70s. A camper of over 30' with opposing slides can have a hard time in many. The number of snowbirds increases as does the cost annually. We make sure we have reservations prior to departure or it will be tough to find anything acceptable.
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Old 07-15-2016, 11:35 PM   #63
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The RV manufacturers are where the US auto companies were in the 1970's. The only thing that will improve them is someone like the Japanese coming in with better quality RV's for less money. That's what forced the Big 3 auto companies to improve their quality.

The problem is that there is no such competitors at this point, nor in the foreseeable future.
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Old 07-16-2016, 05:46 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Wobbles View Post
IMO,

This installment pushes the envelope.

The author has made some good points mixed in with many personal perspectives. The articles are not leading to enlightened discussion but to divisive points.

Pay parks? People vote with their feet. They will stop going there if it is bad.

State parks, I am in Illinois , they do the best they can with what they have. I know several camp hosts and yes, a couple of them will knock on your door, others will not. None I have seen get offensive. Pay your bill as prescribed in the park rules on time.

I am sure everyone has seen over-nighters cruze in late and bug out early, so not to pay. Those are the leaches.

Just a knee-jerk response...

I have to agree with you, especially when it comes to state parks, state and national forests, etc. Most of these were thought of and build 60 to 70 years ago when the idea of a 40 ft motor home or even a 26 ft trailer weren't even on the mind of RV manufacturer's yet.

I get the drift that this guy is dead set against actually camping and feels that the wilderness should be turned into city life for his own personal pleasure. Why is it that everyone needs to stay connected 24 hours a day. is it because they use the internet as a baby sitter instead of actually spending time with their children exploring nature, the great outdoors, and letting their children understand what life was like when their great grand parents were growing up.

Calling setting up ones RV in an RV Resort is about as different from real camping as a pig is from cow.

Yes the amenities and comfort of an RV work wonders on ones 64 year old body instead of sleeping in a tent with nothing more between you and the ground than a foam pad, but you can have that comfort and get into most state and federal campgrounds an RV under 30'.

Each and every person has their own definition on what camping is, but instead of finding places that fit that definition. This guy seems to feel that every campground in the nation should change to suit his definition.

If you've got a extended cab dually pulling a 45' 5er, don't waste your time trying to get into most state parks cause u ain't gonna fit, plain and simple.

If you decide to travel in a 45' diesel pusher that has 7 slide-outs, needs 50 amp service, water, and sewer hookup, or god forbid a "residential Refrigerator" that needs 110 volt electricity all the time in order to work, don't even waste your time trying to stay at a primitive campground and force others to put up with your generator running all night, cause in the morning you may never make it out of the campground, you will have made so many enemies.

The solution is really simple.

If you want the primitive lifestyle, buy the equipment that will work.

If you want to stay at state and national parks, buy the equipment that will fit.

If you want to "camp" in a Traveling hotel suite fine, plan on staying on places that it will fit instead of complaining how the state parks, national forests, and small mom and pop private camps won't upgrade their services to suit the lifestyle choice you made.
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Old 07-16-2016, 06:11 AM   #65
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So I was reading Greg's latest installment earlier this morning, and wondered if anyone here in the forums was following along. When I arrived here I should not have been mildly surprised to find a thread going.

While we may differ with some of the minutiae in the blog, I think it is great that someone is publicly posting about the elephant/dinosaur in the room.

I will continue to follow along with Greg and in this thread with great interest.

If we meet in Goshen, this could be a lively topic!

Cheers,

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Old 07-16-2016, 06:26 AM   #66
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I have to agree with you, especially when it comes to state parks, state and national forests, etc. Most of these were thought of and build 60 to 70 years ago when the idea of a 40 ft motor home or even a 26 ft trailer weren't even on the mind of RV manufacturer's yet.

I get the drift that this guy is dead set against actually camping and feels that the wilderness should be turned into city life for his own personal pleasure. Why is it that everyone needs to stay connected 24 hours a day. is it because they use the internet as a baby sitter instead of actually spending time with their children exploring nature, the great outdoors, and letting their children understand what life was like when their great grand parents were growing up.

Calling setting up ones RV in an RV Resort is about as different from real camping as a pig is from cow.

Yes the amenities and comfort of an RV work wonders on ones 64 year old body instead of sleeping in a tent with nothing more between you and the ground than a foam pad, but you can have that comfort and get into most state and federal campgrounds an RV under 30'.

Each and every person has their own definition on what camping is, but instead of finding places that fit that definition. This guy seems to feel that every campground in the nation should change to suit his definition.

If you've got a extended cab dually pulling a 45' 5er, don't waste your time trying to get into most state parks cause u ain't gonna fit, plain and simple.

If you decide to travel in a 45' diesel pusher that has 7 slide-outs, needs 50 amp service, water, and sewer hookup, or god forbid a "residential Refrigerator" that needs 110 volt electricity all the time in order to work, don't even waste your time trying to stay at a primitive campground and force others to put up with your generator running all night, cause in the morning you may never make it out of the campground, you will have made so many enemies.

The solution is really simple.

If you want the primitive lifestyle, buy the equipment that will work.

If you want to stay at state and national parks, buy the equipment that will fit.

If you want to "camp" in a Traveling hotel suite fine, plan on staying on places that it will fit instead of complaining how the state parks, national forests, and small mom and pop private camps won't upgrade their services to suit the lifestyle choice you made.

Very well said.
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Old 07-16-2016, 06:46 AM   #67
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X2 I am completely blown away at the difference between a Berkshire and our previous 5er - I had NO idea. Sorry if this offends some but it is what it is.
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Sounds like the author of the RV series is a Thor owner. Been there, done that......(7 trips to the repair shop in 18 months of ownership!)
Thank God for our well built Forest River Berkshire! We have seen the promise land! RVing is fun once again!!!
No offense but if you guys want to have some sort of Berkshire lovefest and sing kumbaya about them, you may get more backup singers over in the Berk sub forum.
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Old 07-16-2016, 06:49 AM   #68
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When I look at the situation as a whole picture, I can have some understanding of the point of view of the manufactures. However, what I do not get are the small areas where it would cost almost nothing, (and I know I have no understanding of the process so I could be way off base), to make some changes. For example, when a cut out is made for a vent in the sheet metal, does it really cost that much to pre-cut the pieces with a uniform cut so that it is not like someone cut it with a pair of dull tin snips? Or, if you are doing a cut out on the panel lining the bathtub can those not be pre-cut with screw holes that are uniformed and look like they belong? After all, how much would a simple template cost that will be used over the build of 2,000 units?

I guess I might go back and at least take a look at the thoughts of Henry Ford. He did manage a pretty good 26 year run of a product.
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Old 07-18-2016, 05:55 AM   #69
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Is this ever true

When we had the generator failure on our first big outing - couldn't get any help from FR, Cummins or any FR dealer anywhere near Oshkosh, WI - where we were at the time.

When we finally did get back to Georgia, the dealer recommended by FR would not work on the other issues we had - because we had not purchased from them. Found another dealer - they were a month out. Made an appointment, dropped off vehicle and waited another month for them to fix ONLY the generator tailpipe. They re-used the old, beat up tailpipe and the beat up clamp (they had dragged on the ground for miles).

Our first outing yesterday, done as a test run before going out of town - the tailpipe separates again. Is it that hard to properly attach a tailpipe to a muffler?

It's no wonder many of us are frustrated and generally angry at the manufacturers and the dealers. I'm tired of fixing everything myself - because the build quality and/or component quality was so poor and the dealers in my area are generally incompetent.
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Old 07-18-2016, 07:28 AM   #70
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Our first outing yesterday, done as a test run before going out of town - the tailpipe separates again. Is it that hard to properly attach a tailpipe to a muffler?

It's no wonder many of us are frustrated and generally angry at the manufacturers and the dealers. I'm tired of fixing everything myself - because the build quality and/or component quality was so poor and the dealers in my area are generally incompetent.
Short answer, when you try to reuse a broken or compromised part, yes... My Aunt wanted to buy an RV so she could join us camping and bring along the grandkids. She is handy and not afraid to fix things but not as spry as she used to be. She would need to hire someone to help with the upkeep. I used examples like this to convince her to stick with renting a trailer when she wants to join us instead of buying. Yeah the finishes aren't as nice but the lack of maintenance more than makes up for it. I'm sorry to hear about your pains KatanaPilot.
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:24 AM   #71
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This guy isn't even close as to whats going on with RV parks , maybe 10 or 15 yrs ago what he said may have fit but not now . More and more campgrounds are being built , more spots ADDED to existing . Having spent two summers in yellowstone one of the rv capitals in the summer there are more spots available this yr then last and there will be even more next yr . lots of the forest service campgrounds outside of the park almost always have spots available first come first serve . Now in Florida you see tons of established campgrounds with the seasonal sites . there are still plenty available . i had no issues getting into a place last winter and see no issues this yr . some fill up others don't.
I've seen both. The CG my parents camped in when I was a kid and that I grew up in is exactly the way the author describes. They have MAYBE a dozen sites set aside for weekend campers. The entire rest of the park is filled with seasonal lots. They also have a number of cabins and park models for rent. They were one of the CGs that used to be owned and run by a single family but were eventually sold to a larger company and their prices have since tripled.

Compare that to the CG we are in now where they are about 50/50 with seasonal/weekend sites. They have pictures on the wall that show their expansions over the years and still have room to add more in the future.

Then there are two other CGs near us that are polar opposites of each other. One has a waiting list for seasonals to get into. The other has people leaving in droves. You could drive in on Friday afternoon of a holiday weekend and have just about any site in the park.

Really though this is all anecdotal evidence. There would have to be some sort of actual study to find out what the "norm" is in the industry.
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:30 AM   #72
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It's not a big deal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyGuy View Post
Short answer, when you try to reuse a broken or compromised part, yes... My Aunt wanted to buy an RV so she could join us camping and bring along the grandkids. She is handy and not afraid to fix things but not as spry as she used to be. She would need to hire someone to help with the upkeep. I used examples like this to convince her to stick with renting a trailer when she wants to join us instead of buying. Yeah the finishes aren't as nice but the lack of maintenance more than makes up for it. I'm sorry to hear about your pains KatanaPilot.
But it is indicative of issues with the industry - be it the dealer (as described by the author) and/or the manufacturer.

In my case, it wouldn't have been difficult (or should not have been) to order a new tailpipe and clamps from FR. The dealer had the coach for a month. Possibly, they didn't want to have to deal with FR and the warranty department?

Either way, my problems are infinitesimally minor in comparison to some, but the more chapters I read from this author, the more I agree with him.
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:54 AM   #73
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I've seen both. The CG my parents camped in when I was a kid and that I grew up in is exactly the way the author describes. They have MAYBE a dozen sites set aside for weekend campers. The entire rest of the park is filled with seasonal lots. They also have a number of cabins and park models for rent. They were one of the CGs that used to be owned and run by a single family but were eventually sold to a larger company and their prices have since tripled.

Compare that to the CG we are in now where they are about 50/50 with seasonal/weekend sites. They have pictures on the wall that show their expansions over the years and still have room to add more in the future.

Then there are two other CGs near us that are polar opposites of each other. One has a waiting list for seasonals to get into. The other has people leaving in droves. You could drive in on Friday afternoon of a holiday weekend and have just about any site in the park.

Really though this is all anecdotal evidence. There would have to be some sort of actual study to find out what the "norm" is in the industry.
Agreed . though changes are tanking place in the campground industry . i believe the author is out dated when writing on the campground subject
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:57 AM   #74
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I just had to replace my front door due to a break-in. I dealt with FR directly. They sent me the wrong door and the wrong graphics. They didn't want either back, and eventually, after a couple of dozen email exchanges and phone calls, I got the right stuff and the TT is like new... but I did the work myself, instead of expecting some kid making $8- an hour to give a ---- about by trailer. Unfortunately, the dealers have no real standard as to repairing these units. It's... get it out the door, and charge the owner or manufacturer and get paid as soon as possible. Sorry for your experience. If an A&P did this kind of work on your Katana, he's lose his license...
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Old 07-18-2016, 12:13 PM   #75
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Nice glider

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I just had to replace my front door due to a break-in. I dealt with FR directly. They sent me the wrong door and the wrong graphics. They didn't want either back, and eventually, after a couple of dozen email exchanges and phone calls, I got the right stuff and the TT is like new... but I did the work myself, instead of expecting some kid making $8- an hour to give a ---- about by trailer. Unfortunately, the dealers have no real standard as to repairing these units. It's... get it out the door, and charge the owner or manufacturer and get paid as soon as possible. Sorry for your experience. If an A&P did this kind of work on your Katana, he's lose his license...
We just had a pilot move in with a couple of gliders. It's really cool to see here vs. the powered airplanes.

Fortunately, my son is my A&P and he flies the Katana too. So his butt is in the seat and he knows he better do good work. But I agree with you on the points you make.
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Old 07-18-2016, 12:25 PM   #76
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I usually see both sides (hahahaha)..........but at least I do here. I hear too many horror stories on RV quality for them all to be wrong! Yet mine is fine. I don't know the answer. I do know for a FACT that good ones are built and bad ones are built.

On the campgrounds, I disagree with the guy. Go get 15 acres in the country, away from civilization, but on a paved road (to where is immaterial), and make a campground. Put in septic, electric, and water. Get a lawn mower. And a good vehicle that will make it to the bank. Every one in America is full, including the ones that are sardine cans.....every single one. The complaints are always "there aren't enough nice camp sites", not that they are too empty.

As for "getting back to nature vs. comfort", some of us spent a lot of time in a tent.......and now later in life we developed heart conditions (I had an L.A.D. -M.I., go look it up), asthma (no clue where that came from), and the days of tents are over. So the house gets paid off cause the Lord let me live long enough, and I just moved to a moving-house-on-wheels mortgage. So, I'm not supposed to use that because some guy likes tents better? (I bet he doesn't live in the south where it's 100+ starting today through September 25 or so)..........

My nine cents.
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Old 07-18-2016, 05:30 PM   #77
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Part 6 - Associations can influence change.

Can they now?

RV Industry Death Spiral – Part 6: Associations can influence change | RV Daily Report

Here is a cut and paste of the most interesting couple of paragraphs in the latest offering.


"For the reasons alluded to in my other columns – the biggies being inability to get RVs serviced and product quality – the RV lifestyle is a dream of many until they buy one and run into the problems that force them out of the lifestyle as the fun dissipates.

RVIA is in the prime position as the leader of the industry’s manufacturers to dictate product quality as part of the seal requirements. Like the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval, an RVIA seal should convey to consumers that the RV has been inspected, tested and is ready to be used. However, the seal only indicates that it has been constructed according to RVIA’s standards.

However, people cannot review RVIA’s standards, nor are they offered for sale on the association’s website. Therefore consumers really don’t know whether the RVs they buy are built to those standards. Some of the standards are available through other organizations, like the National Fire Protection Association. But, there is no one central location where consumers can find the standards dictating RV construction."
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Old 07-18-2016, 05:50 PM   #78
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here's a question for you . Why does the manufacture think the dealers Techs should diag a unit for free under warranty ? this is one reason i will never do warranty work nor work for a dealer . the flat rate does not cover the diag time .
I can only speak for our division, we do allow for diagnostic time. However we also expect the dealer to call when they are stumped and have certified techs that can diagnose problems in a timely manner. It irritates me
When a customer calls, frustrated because the dealer failed to repair their issue after three tries. When we check the file, not one warranty claim was filed, (dealer behind) and we have no calls. We end up fixing it ourselves to try and salvage the situation and have to repair their repair in most cases.
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Old 07-18-2016, 05:54 PM   #79
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I can only speak for our division, we do allow for diagnostic time. However we also expect the dealer to call when they are stumped and have certified techs that can diagnose problems in a timely manner. It irritates me
When a customer calls, frustrated because the dealer failed to repair their issue after three tries. When we check the file, not one warranty claim was filed, (dealer behind) and we have no calls. We end up fixing it ourselves to try and salvage the situation and have to repair their repair in most cases.
So what do you do about that dealer after that?

Complain at a staff meeting that Joe's Campers is bad again? Or fire his sorry butt???

????
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Old 07-18-2016, 06:05 PM   #80
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That's the tricky part. For sure, we discuss with them the issue, what went wrong and encourage them to involve us sooner in the future. We can send out a service rep to do training, offer in house training, be more proactive on our end in asking more questions. I think we have given the consumer more direct access to get in touch with us before it becomes a problem. We send a letter with every unit asking the customer to contact us directly if their coach is out of service too long. While we all wish there was one, there is no silver bullet. Some state laws give us little to no authority to force a dealer to do anything.

Sad part is we sometimes see this wth really big, previously good dealers. I think just like a lot of RV related things, the infrastructure is taxed. Not enough qualified staff to handle the issues as they should be handled.

My immediate response has been to raise prices so we can put in the best components we can, pay employees more and provide the service people expect. We'll see how that goes.
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