The RV industry death spiral

[Mr Havercamp]

The BUZZ: What’s with Gerber’s ‘Death Spiral?’ | RV Business

[Wobbles]

The author of the blog is preaching to the choir. Just reading here, many examples are given that are just horrible. I communicate with members that have displayed the bad product or construction. Some go into detail with photos to prove it. It is a horrible circumstance to be in.

People/customers vote with their feet. If it is bad they will not go there again. I cannot believe the industry is based on one time sales. The one and done plan is not a business model.

I have read member posts that have been in those horrible situations themselves with some crappy things from the factory or dealer. They do share how to handle it yourself. If a member has hit the wall of crappy service or response, look for these guys. Not hard to figure out the complainers that quit right there and those that lived it and survived.

A majority of post answers I read here are members reaching out to share what they have done to resolve an issue. Warnings and advice make this place a resource.

I cannot begin to think that every member here has a POS. Many have bought the product again.

I am just having another knee jerk reaction.

My wife requires that I have a disclaimer that states that I am in no way representing her thoughts or views.

[B and B]

[QUOTE=Wobbles;1265198]e horrible situations themselves
I cannot begin to think that every member here has a POS. Many have bought the product again.

I am just having another knee jerk reaction.

My wife requires that I have a disclaimer that states that I am in no way representing her thoughts or views.




Bob,

You are so right!! The few that complain will be the loudest yet the silent majority are the ones that are happy with there TT, FW or MH and the pleasure they have camping or RVing.

I believe this thread has run its course and should be closed.

[northstar1960]

Originally Posted by bclemens

We certainly have flat rates for some items, but we also know some things take time.

The other items you mention are overhead. I have the same thing...when a supplier part fails, they pay for the part (occasionally labor)...but what I mark up all those parts is what pays the overhead. Now, if I have a supplier that is eating up all my overhead in an unbalanced manner...guess what, I change suppliers or get a better part. Same thing dealers do. If a product comes in with too many issues and is costing them too much in overhead support, they should drop the product.

the only ones that eat it with flat rate are the techs . they simply do not get paid . and then some flat rates are fair but many are not . when you get all your cheap faucets from china there bound to go bad . call a plumber to replace it cost 129.00 pay the tech flat rate at 12 mins to replace that same faucet he gets $3.00 . not the tech fault cheap faucets are being used . but he gets stuck losing an hr of time for $3.00 no wonder dealers can't find qualified techs . no wonder the RV manufactures can't fill the labor force . the only thing that matters is how much profit can we make and how can we get more for less .
I'll never work for a dealer again 5 months was enough last winter . i mean why should anybody work for free . now i charge full rate . people are happy cause it cost less then going to a dealer . If it's a warranty item i let the owners try to collect I get paid my rate . i won't do it and it will get worse with dealers because you can't get quality techs that knows plumbing , electrical , HVAC systems , carpentry , supension, propane systems , boiler systems , appliances ETC ETC. for $20 to $30 bucks an hr and flat rate at that .

[Mr Havercamp]

Originally Posted by B and B

I believe this thread has run its course and should be closed.

You are aware that no one is twisting your arm to follow this thread?
Based on the amount of views I believe it has not run its course.

[KatanaPilot]

[QUOTE=B and B;1265204]

Originally Posted by Wobbles

e horrible situations themselves
I cannot begin to think that every member here has a POS. Many have bought the product again.

I am just having another knee jerk reaction.

My wife requires that I have a disclaimer that states that I am in no way representing her thoughts or views.




Bob,

You are so right!! The few that complain will be the loudest yet the silent majority are the ones that are happy with there TT, FW or MH and the pleasure they have camping or RVing.

I believe this thread has run its course and should be closed.

You don't like the subject matter or the comments so you want the thread closed?

[lgray]

[QUOTE=KatanaPilot;1265446]

Originally Posted by B and B

You don't like the subject matter or the comments so you want the thread closed?

Excellent point, for those who are advocates for censorship:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMzd40i8TfA

[BamaBob]

[QUOTE=B and B;1265204]

Originally Posted by Wobbles

e horrible situations themselves
I cannot begin to think that every member here has a POS. Many have bought the product again.

I am just having another knee jerk reaction.

My wife requires that I have a disclaimer that states that I am in no way representing her thoughts or views.




Bob,

You are so right!! The few that complain will be the loudest yet the silent majority are the ones that are happy with there TT, FW or MH and the pleasure they have camping or RVing.

I believe this thread has run its course and should be closed.

Brian (and others)

Not sure the thread should be closed - I am enjoying reading Bclemens forthright replies -- refreshing that a Forest River rep is actively participating in the forum (Thanks Bclemens!!)

I DO think that the 2000 lb. elephant in the room DOES need to be addressed - and simply put: why do people think that a $20,000 RV needs to have the fit and finish of a $100,000 one?

RV manufacturers can only do so much and still make a profit - you really do get what you pay for.

Having said that, I really DO wish that the RV industry can move forward to adopt automobile industry-like standards whereby dealerships are held accountable by the manufacturer. Only when this happens can buyers be assured that the product they purchase will be adequately warranted.

THIS is the next big thing that the RVIA should address if they want to be seen as anything more than a $165 decal added to the purchase price of a RV.

[DreiHunde]

Originally Posted by stevejahr

Sacred cows... What I believe:

1. Our society overall is more interested in getting things as cheap as possible. I do it much of the time and so does everybody else. This is NOT an RV industry issue.
2. Our society overall is more interested in bells and whistles than functionality. This too is NOT an RV industry issue.
3. Free market economics mean that manufacturers are trying their best to offer the product that will sell the most by balancing features and price. They are selling what the market seems to want, after all if you have complaints you must have chosen and bought the product.
4. Ditto for dealers. Again you chose where to purchase and could have gone somewhere else.
5. The internet will always have 100x more detracting opinions than supporting opinions for *anything*. While there are problem units how many units have no problems? We will NEVER know but everyone is sure they must be rare just because you do not hear about them.
6. Today's RVs are more of a little house and, well, have you bought a new house? I have bought a few and they all had issues not unlike many of the RVs.

My RV is not perfect but has never been in to the dealer. I don't take it to the dealer because they are a couple hours away and because I am a throwback to another time and believe in fixing stuff myself. I do not have to pay myself so I know I can often do it better than having somebody else do it who may care more about fast than right (see #1 above). And I like learning about how stuff works or is put together. I would probably be a good RV service tech because I know at least something about most of the systems in an RV, but I doubt the pay/income would meet my current standard of living. Maybe someday when my high tech gig runs out

That reminds me, I need to fix that front power stabilizer jack that I took the motor out of...

Death Spiral my butt.

Agreed

[BamaBob]

Originally Posted by northstar1960

the only ones that eat it with flat rate are the techs . they simply do not get paid . and then some flat rates are fair but many are not . when you get all your cheap faucets from china there bound to go bad . call a plumber to replace it cost 129.00 pay the tech flat rate at 12 mins to replace that same faucet he gets $3.00 . not the tech fault cheap faucets are being used . but he gets stuck losing an hr of time for $3.00 no wonder dealers can't find qualified techs . no wonder the RV manufactures can't fill the labor force . the only thing that matters is how much profit can we make and how can we get more for less .
I'll never work for a dealer again 5 months was enough last winter . i mean why should anybody work for free . now i charge full rate . people are happy cause it cost less then going to a dealer . If it's a warranty item i let the owners try to collect I get paid my rate . i won't do it and it will get worse with dealers because you can't get quality techs that knows plumbing , electrical , HVAC systems , carpentry , supension, propane systems , boiler systems , appliances ETC ETC. for $20 to $30 bucks an hr and flat rate at that .

Northstar, I applaud your hourly rate of $20-30 a hour. Where do you live? You are my tech for life!!

As I get to the end of my career (I retire next Year) service fees are yet another area that irritates the 'grumpy old man in me'

How is it that a RV dealer (or plumber, electrician, auto mechanic or other service tech) justify their hourly labor rate? $125 a hour for repair services? Really? REALLY?

Our son Brian, BSRN, CCRN and soon to be Nurse Practitioner makes $29/hr. with shift differential. As a CRNP, he will boost that salary to $53/hr. 7 years of college education & student loans to repay.

So a person who saves lives in a Emergency Room (maybe the life of you, your wife, or your child!) Makes 1/2 the pay of a trade school trained technician?!?

Really? REALLY!?

(Yes I realize that RV dealerships pay techs crap, but independent techs, electricians & plumbers still charge the same rates)


(And before someone tries to justify those outrageous salaries - don't forget that the medical profession writ large is vastly overpriced in my opinion as well!)

All I am doing here is addressing the issue of fair wages for services preformed.

/rant

(Northstar - at $20-30/hr. I believe you are charging a fair rate for services performed so this rant is NOT directed toward you!)

[BamaBob]

Originally Posted by DreiHunde

Agreed

X3 - exactly!

We fulltime and cannot agree more with point #6! (and yep we have owned our share of sticks & bricks )

[BamaBob]

Originally Posted by bclemens

No problem. I am a consumer too and I try to approach things as I would want to be treated. The more I know, the better I feel about the process, so I just want provide some insight.

We do try, very hard to go above and beyond.

As does a LOT of other Forest River Divisions -- I believe this is because it is a Corporate Culture and I applaud Forest River for it! This is the biggest reason we are Forest River Owners for life!

Originally Posted by bclemens

Example: Customer had an issue with a unit, we set up a dealer (within a day) to do the repair but he wanted to bring it to the factory. Brought it by the plant, we fixed a few things and mentioned something else we saw offered to fix it. Said, not to worry about it, it was no big deal had to get home. Got it home and it became a big deal. Had a couple of other issues that became MOUNTAINS. It was all our fault, and he's already had to bring it back to the factory once. (Uh, we had a dealer set up, you chose to bring it here it didn't need to come back).

Long story short, we sent a drive away company (same ones that delivers our units every single day) to go pick up the unit from his residence. Driver gets there at 5pm. Customer asks...its 5 pm, what will you do Dynamax is closed. Driver said, I will take it to our holding yard and transfer it over in the morning. Customer refused to release the unit...wanted us to put the driver up in a hotel, so that in the morning he could take it straight to the plant. Would only release the unit when my head of service agreed to meet the driver at the plant, 9pm at night....and of course all its going to do is store in our holding yard until the morning (which we tried telling him).

When we dig into it...the first two "trip ending" major factory flaws, were user related issues, not factory defects.

I know that there is story after story of poor mfg service and I can relate story after story of consumer gone insane....but I think in the end, they are really the exception to the norm...they just happen to be the ones that get the most media coverage.

X2

Almost Every (I'll bet EVERY but someone would flame me if I said that LOL) Customer service issue I have heard/helped with boils down to 3 things:

1. Rushed/incomplete/nonexistent pickup PDI
2. Unreasonable customer expectations/demands (see bclemens comment above) Oddly enough, I have heard similar situations from 3 other FR divisions. WTH?! FR bends over backwards to help and the customer rants for unreasonable requests? Customers need to get a life!?
3. Decent dealers try to help customers but customers have unreasonable demands (see 2 above).

Finally, I am a FR Customer Service poster child: last year techs noticed delamination on our 5er at the Goshen rally but we could not stick around to have it fixed. Long story short they sent a driver to our house in AL picked the unit up, fixed it, delivered it back to our house (with several unexpected upgrades done as well). No Charge.

I'm unsatisfied/unhappy/mad...how?!

Thanks Again Forest River.

[HappyGuy]

Originally Posted by BamaBob

N
How is it that a RV dealer (or plumber, electrician, auto mechanic or other service tech) justify their hourly labor rate? $125 a hour for repair services? Really? REALLY?

Our son Brian, BSRN, CCRN and soon to be Nurse Practitioner makes $29/hr. with shift differential. As a CRNP, he will boost that salary to $53/hr. 7 years of college education & student loans to repay.

So a person who saves lives in a Emergency Room (maybe the life of you, your wife, or your child!) Makes 1/2 the pay of a trade school trained technician?!?

Really? REALLY!?

(Yes I realize that RV dealerships pay techs crap, but independent techs, electricians & plumbers still charge the same rates)


(And before someone tries to justify those outrageous salaries - don't forget that the medical profession writ large is vastly overpriced in my opinion as well!)

All I am doing here is addressing the issue of fair wages for services preformed.

/rant

(Northstar - at $20-30/hr. I believe you are charging a fair rate for services performed so this rant is NOT directed toward you!)

I agree that if you do not have the overhead of maintaining a shop that the price per hour should drop but you also need to consider that the mobile tech often has to cover transportation costs including wear and tear, gas, and time lost so yes, if I call a tech out for a repair and they drive an hour to get there I will expect to pay 125.00 for their hour of work, the hour they drove and the hour it takes them to get back home. Their office is mobile just like a taxi and you have to pay for their transport time just like you would for an ambulance etc. Now if they charged a flat rate of 125.00 per hour instead of 125.00 for the first hour and a decreasing rate for each hour thereafter then yeah, I'll have a beef with that rate model and I doubt that person will get very many call backs but 125.00 for the first hour of a mobile techs time is not uncommon or IMO unreasonable considering what it's covering.

[KatanaPilot]

Originally Posted by BamaBob

As does a LOT of other Forest River Divisions -- I believe this is because it is a Corporate Culture and I applaud Forest River for it! This is the biggest reason we are Forest River Owners for life!



X2

Almost Every (I'll bet EVERY but someone would flame me if I said that LOL) Customer service issue I have heard/helped with boils down to 3 things:

1. Rushed/incomplete/nonexistent pickup PDI
2. Unreasonable customer expectations/demands (see bclemens comment above) Oddly enough, I have heard similar situations from 3 other FR divisions. WTH?! FR bends over backwards to help and the customer rants for unreasonable requests? Customers need to get a life!?
3. Decent dealers try to help customers but customers have unreasonable demands (see 2 above).

Finally, I am a FR Customer Service poster child: last year techs noticed delamination on our 5er at the Goshen rally but we could not stick around to have it fixed. Long story short they sent a driver to our house in AL picked the unit up, fixed it, delivered it back to our house (with several unexpected upgrades done as well). No Charge.

I'm unsatisfied/unhappy/mad...how?!

Thanks Again Forest River.

I can give you at least one data point where you are wrong.

Our motorhome was 2 months old. We were boondocking at Oshkosh and the generator quit. I called CoachNet for assistance. They could have it looked at in three days. We would be gone from Oshkosh by then. I called FR, talked to Customer Service. He promised a call back within an hour. I got a voicemail from him 3 days later telling me to return it to my selling dealer (in Michigan).

I took care of the generator issue myself with Cummins directly once we returned home.

Made an appointment at the one local dealer that was willing to service the motorhome to take care of a list of discrepancies. They were one month out. Left the motorhome there for a month, the only item they "repaired" was the generator tailpipe that fell off and got beat up. They re-used the old tailpipe and the beat-up clamp. It failed again the next time we took the motorhome out. By now it was out of warranty and I fixed it myself.

So at least in my case, the issues we had were not due to inadequate PDI or an unreasonable demand or request. My issues have been 100% component failure, poor assembly quality and poor customer service from FR and the dealers.

One data point, I realize - but I think there are plenty more folks who have similar, if not much worse experiences. And I am convinced it is not because we are unreasonable. Unlike you, if I ever own another MH, it won't be a Forest River.

[northstar1960]

Originally Posted by BamaBob

Northstar, I applaud your hourly rate of $20-30 a hour. Where do you live? You are my tech for life!!

As I get to the end of my career (I retire next Year) service fees are yet another area that irritates the 'grumpy old man in me'

How is it that a RV dealer (or plumber, electrician, auto mechanic or other service tech) justify their hourly labor rate? $125 a hour for repair services? Really? REALLY?

Our son Brian, BSRN, CCRN and soon to be Nurse Practitioner makes $29/hr. with shift differential. As a CRNP, he will boost that salary to $53/hr. 7 years of college education & student loans to repay.

So a person who saves lives in a Emergency Room (maybe the life of you, your wife, or your child!) Makes 1/2 the pay of a trade school trained technician?!?

Really? REALLY!?

(Yes I realize that RV dealerships pay techs crap, but independent techs, electricians & plumbers still charge the same rates)


(And before someone tries to justify those outrageous salaries - don't forget that the medical profession writ large is vastly overpriced in my opinion as well!)

All I am doing here is addressing the issue of fair wages for services preformed.

/rant

(Northstar - at $20-30/hr. I believe you are charging a fair rate for services performed so this rant is NOT directed toward you!)

20 to 30 is what dealers pay there techs not enough ! i charge $95 which is cheap . no benefits , lots of expenses , $53 is good he will not have to buy supply's will get no doubt great benefits , 401 health etc work a set schedule . 7yrs of collage is not much different then 7 yrs working to gain the master license .

IF you think plumbers , electricians , Mobile techs charge to much then you should learn to do it all your self . go buy the thousands in equipment . take the time to learn the systems then you can save your money . just trying to make a point here not going after you personally
I'm out of pocket for thousands in parts that i may or may not need you try to cover your bases . my last months gasoline bill was $750 . not to mention wear and tear on the truck . oil changes tires ETC . so that $95.00 drops to 25 real quick .

[KatanaPilot]

[QUOTE=BamaBob;1265501]

Originally Posted by B and B

Brian (and others)

Not sure the thread should be closed - I am enjoying reading Bclemens forthright replies -- refreshing that a Forest River rep is actively participating in the forum (Thanks Bclemens!!)

I DO think that the 2000 lb. elephant in the room DOES need to be addressed - and simply put: why do people think that a $20,000 RV needs to have the fit and finish of a $100,000 one?

RV manufacturers can only do so much and still make a profit - you really do get what you pay for.

Having said that, I really DO wish that the RV industry can move forward to adopt automobile industry-like standards whereby dealerships are held accountable by the manufacturer. Only when this happens can buyers be assured that the product they purchase will be adequately warranted.

THIS is the next big thing that the RVIA should address if they want to be seen as anything more than a $165 decal added to the purchase price of a RV.

My $17,000 Honda Fit Toad does not have the same creature comforts as my wife's $55,000 Acura. It does, however, have the same level of reliability and build quality. The Fit was built in Mexico, the Acura in Japan.

I know the RV industry is much different, but how much money do you have to spend to get great build quality, good component life and reasonable creature comforts on a very reliable chassis? And who makes one?

[BandJCarm]

I never want to close any thread, as long as anyone has something more to say.

Y'all are missing one key ingredient, and Mr. Clemens told you about it above. Cars sell 17 Million units. RV's sell less than 1/2 million.

You can't legitimately want them to operate identically.

I will agree, there are too many manufacturers and too many models. There should be about 3 manufacturers and about 25 models each. Then quality would improve.

[Mr Havercamp]

As usual the Forest River glee club comes out to defend them at all costs, while having a good long sip of the kool aid. What's funny is Greg's opinions in the series are directed at the entire Industry, but the faithful here feel they must defend Forest River.

I was handed, well lets say almost handed, a total POS of a trailer. No PDI involved....we never made it that far. I saw it a few hours after the dealer received it. I have copies of the 19 pages of warranty work orders approved to the dealer (official Rockwood forms) to repair that unit to the tune of $5000, and I did not even own it. I have resisted posting those pages here, along with the massive amount of pictures I have, but maybe I should? I had discussed the issues directly with the factory on more than one occasion prior to and during those approvals. There was only a few items they refused to do or considered "unreasonable". One was the TV antenna hits the radio antenna when rotated. Why? 184 sq ft of roof and you can't mount one antenna 6" further from the other? Nope, that's the way we build them......so was the official response. Maybe I was unreasonable.

Long story short. The ball was dropped, not by the dealer but the manufacturer, as they could not get parts to the dealer to repair the screw ups they shipped. I was intimately involved and know almost to the hour when the parts orders were sent by the dealer. Ultimately the unit was rejected by us. Unreasonable? I was being patient for weeks and trying to remain positive. I was trying to buy something and the manufacturer could not provide it.

We wanted the model / floorplan, and gave them a second chance. Add another 7 weeks. We had discussions with the factory more than once. We were given some excellent advice behind the scenes here that I will not mention regarding factory inspections. We were told things and promised things. Not by the dealer, by people at the factory.

The 2nd unit showed up in much better shape but still had some of the same issues as the first, and not minor inconsequential things either. By that time I was tired of it and I gave up. I'll fix it myself, where do I sign. Its now April and I placed the original order in October. I have already missed a yearly fishing trip and the season has started. I just want this entire ordeal over with. I am guilty of exactly what Greg describes in part 7....

On the way home the water tank started falling out. The first trip out the fridge stops working and the microwave go's up in a plume of smoke. I know....... those are components not made by Forest River........ A very common response here...................BS!

It was not rushed/incomplete/nonexistent pickup PDI nor unreasonable demands. All I expect for my lowly $20K is something I don't have to rebuild and repair right out of the gate.....It's not the dealers fault, unless hes building trailers in Indiana. I didn't have to work on my cheap $50K GMC pickup yet or my wife's measly cheap 22K CRV. I remember when we bought the CRV and drove it home. The next day I did not have to tighten up the fuel tank.


Well guess what?..I am actually happy with the unit now. That's after I have spent countless amounts of time and effort, along with who knows how much money, to finish building it correctly. I am also quite happy with Rockwood's support after the fact. They reimbursed me for the fridge element, and sent a new microwave to me. Fairly painlessly too. I am thrilled with the dealer, Campers Inn of Pittsburgh (formally Clems).

This industry has some huge problems that they created themselves and Forest River is just as guilty as anyone else, no matter what the fan club thinks or says. When I see the Kumbaya posts I want to stick my finger down my throat and hurl on my monitor. Believe me, the below does not solve much. I need a drink..........and not Kool aid either.

[bclemens]

It's funny that people that post their complaints don't like to get bashed for it...but yet when people post positive results those same people are bashing them for it. Really, I think no one should be bashing anyone for their opinion. (unless that's bashing right there...then it is so totally acceptable)

Maybe, just maybe we have two people on here and they had two different experiences (both accurately described). A person that says they love Forest River and will always buy is not saying that you are stupid and overly picky (at least I hope not) but on the same token, someone that had an issue cannot possibly say that everyone will.

Greg did in fact generalize the entire industry and he is entitled to his opinion....but posters are also entitled to post their positive experience as a counter point. That does not mean the industry is perfect....simply sharing their personal experience just as Gerber did his.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by bclemens

It's funny that people that post their complaints don't like to get bashed for it...but yet when people post positive results those same people are bashing them for it.

This is why we have in the guidelines, this part often ignored by some members, even when being reminded of such repeatedly:


Dealer/Vendor and Customer Disputes: This forum is not intended to be a mechanism for people to vent frustrations about vendors or sales from private parties. Please settle your differences with sellers, manufacturers and dealers through the long-established legal or arbitration systems or the Better Business Bureau but not through our community.

These type of threads have historically turned into what this thread HAS became, a disrespect of others opinions and bashing of same.

Threads do evolve normally into other subject matters, as from what the original intent was. Since these type threads are not really asking a question that members can help with, then there can be no "correct" answer, but just opinions. What's one opinion may not be what's another...nor even if based on experience, they may not be the same as bclemens has so correctly articulated.

The site team tries to let our members 'vent' some, but these same members cannot keep opening threads or using several threads to keep "venting". That's not friendly and becomes "trolling and baiting" when the same people keep doing it, even after seeing the discourse they are causing. They just can't let go.

These are also against our friendly site guidelines:

• Do not post the same discussion topic more than once or in several areas of the forum.
• Do not take every opportunity to express your disagreement, incite argument, insult each other, or fan flames. Voice your opinion respectfully and then let it go.
• Trolling and cyberstalking are NOT allowed and are grounds for account restriction or banishment. Trolling on this board includes posting controversial and often irrelevant or off-topic messages with the intention of (or anticipated result of) baiting other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal, harmonious on-topic discussion, especially when a pattern of such posting is apparent.

What this thread started out as, has really strayed away from.