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Old 06-28-2014, 11:54 PM   #1
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Help me reduce tongue weight

Step 1 - wife talked me into a Flagstaff 228. Already tongue heavy, then she insisted on the hot water and shower package

Step 2- I bought a Toyota Tundra pickup. Figuring this would be able to handle the weight, I upgraded to 2 lP tanks and 2 batteries on the Flagstaff.

Step 3 - Put a topper on the truck (another ~150 lbs) and loaded up with fairly minimal camping supplies (bikes, kids crap, cooler, etc) and a camper hitched up full of water. Swing by the local scale and realize I'm pretty close to max. payload, and will be over once the kids get older and put on weight / bring more stuff.

So, besides making a couple poor product choices, I'm looking for any creative ideas on reducing tongue weight. I've already re-arranged things in the camper to put the heaviest items behind the axle. Now I'm looking at:

1. Pack more stuff in the camper instead of the truck.

2. Going back to 1xLP and 1xBattery. I'll leave the 2nd battery box on the tongue so I can bring a second along when needed (like for a week in Yellowstone). I won't run them in parallel, but rather switch between the two.

3. Quit hauling my hot water heater full.

4. Placing a bike rack on the roof of the popup, more towards the rear, to get that weight out of the back of my truck / payload. But drilling holes in my roof makes me nervous.

5. Move the battery to the rear, such as under the dinette. I know you need a vented box and maybe AGM would be better. What's people's experience here?

Anything I'm missing?
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Old 06-29-2014, 12:07 AM   #2
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1. I wouldn't worry about it.

2. I wouldn't skip on the LP and battery, LP you'll be caught empty when the wife is halfway through her shower.

3. Sure, 6X8.3=49.8 that won't be bad to lose and can be regained later.

4. Can it be bumper mounted?

5. You can. Me? I'd carry the extra battery there for transport then drop it in the hole up front once you arrive. If you do, AGM or not, I'd mount it in a sealed, vented box. Batteries tend to gas when active, even an AGM has vents.

And I wouldn't worry about it. They'll gain what, 125 lbs each on average (I'm totally assuming since I don't know your kids.) over the next decade? Will you keep that TV that long?

So I say your choices are fine, especially since you're good now. Go camping, it'll be OK.
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Old 06-29-2014, 12:11 AM   #3
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I would not rearrange all the heavy stuff behind the axles. Lightening the tongue and putting heavy stuff in the rear can and will cause a sway condition. For now, you are within spec and as long as the tundra handles well, I say camp on.
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Old 06-29-2014, 12:46 AM   #4
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Are you using a WDH?
You can mount the batteries over the axle inside. They sell vented battery boxes.
Air springs can be added for sag, but the WDH should take care of that.
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Old 06-29-2014, 05:39 AM   #5
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Is his the trailer you have?

228 - MAC/LTD Series

Dry Hitch Weight 331 lbs. (150 kg)
Axle Weight 1,719 lbs. (780 kg)
Unloaded Vehicle Weight 2,050 lbs. (930 kg)
GVWR 3,016 lbs. (1,368 kg)
Cargo Carrying Capacity 966 lbs. (438 kg)
Box Size 12' (3.7 m)
Exterior Open Length 23' 10" (7.3 m)
Exterior Closed Length 17' 2" (5.2 m)
Exterior Closed Height 4' 9" (1.4 m)
Exterior Width 85" (2.2 m)

Also what year, model, engine size etc etc of your Tundra? And are you using weight distributing hitch as mentioned by BigBaron? What is the weight of the trailer tongue when loaded?
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Old 06-29-2014, 05:59 AM   #6
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If your tongue weight is under 400 lbs: Reese Light Duty Weight Distribution System w Sway Control - Trunnion - 4,000 lbs GTW, 400 lbs TW Reese Weight Distribution 66557

If over a 400 lb. tongue weight: Reese SC Weight Distribution System w Sway Control - Trunnion - 10,000 lbs GTW, 600 lbs TW Reese Weight Distribution RP66151
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Old 06-29-2014, 09:39 AM   #7
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Thanks for all the advice.

I am being very careful when loading the trailer and have no sway problems given my tongue weight is running close to 15% (420-440 lbs).

My 2013 Tundra 4x4 CrewMax doesn't need a WDH unless I go over 500 lbs. The rear is a tad bit sagged down when fully loaded, but not enough for that issue to be of concern.

So, I don't think a WDH hitch will really help me, but actually would add more weight and take away from totally payload capacity.

Oh and the wife insisted on the shower but has and will never use it. I tried to explain to her in advance that we couldn't bring enough water to enjoy showers. At any rate, that is both dead weight and not to be considered for our needs.

My really issue is total payload of the truck with a family of 4 and all the "stuff" that comes with that. I was spoiled growing up with ¾ ton trucks on the farm and, ignorantly, didn’t think to run the numbers on a half ton truck pulling a popup camper. My guess is that 90% of the vans, small SUVs, etc. on the road pulling these pups are dangerously overweight – and I try to avoid them at all costs!
I can't make my wife/kids weigh less, and I've paired down the "stuff" we bring to a minimum, so now I'm looking at trying to redistribute weight on the trailer to make the trailer's axles carry a tad bit more of the load and free up more payload capacity on the truck.

I do have the 228 referenced. When I bought it, the dealer weighed it with hot/cold water full, one LP and one battery. Tongue weight was 420 lbs. Placing the battery under the dinette brought that down to 365 lbs, although I opted not to do that at the time given my lack of knowledge on the downsides of putting a battery inside.
My problem is also reliably weighting things. There's a gravel pit near me, but every day their scale is a bit different. For example, they're telling me tongue weight for 2xLP and 2xbattery with fully loaded hot/cold water is 440 lbs. I don't see how that is possible given only 1 LP and 1 battery was 420 lbs at the dealer. I'm looking at the Sherline tongue weight scale, but reviews mention it is somewhat inaccurate, and I'd still be left with an issue in reliably weighing my truck.

Here are my calcs:

Truck GVWR: 7,200 lbs
Truck base curb weight (spec): 5,625 lbs
Additional options (tow pkg, skid plate, etc. from sticker on door jamb): 60 lbs
Topper and roof rack: 145 lbs
Truck curb weight with options: 5,830 lbs.
Truck curb weight actual (weighed at scale): 6,000 lbs.

Resulting Payload Capacity: 1,370 / 1,200 (spec / actual)

Payload inside truck: 800 lbs (2 adults, 2 kids under 6, 4 bikes, 4 bags, food+cooler+ice, dry food, etc)

Leftover payload for tongue weight of trailer: 400 - 570 (depending on spec numbers versus actual scale measurement, which again could be inaccurate)
And I don’t really like being maxed out on payload – would much rather have a hundred pounds or so to spare for rounding errors.
FYI I've got a good 300 lbs of carrying capacity left on the camper.

So, going back to those original numbers by the dealer, just 1 LP and 1 battery was 420 - so I'm at least going back down to that configuration and probably emptying the hot water tank each trip (which is a pain to remove the annode each time). I'm then looking at things like moving the bikes on top of the camper given its remaining payload capacity. At a minimum I’m putting some bags and other easy items inside the camper right over the axle.
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Old 06-29-2014, 12:18 PM   #8
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A wdh actually will transfer some of the weight back to the trailer as well. You could go with a light weight set up like the Anderson hitch. If you are sagging and that close on hitch weight, I would really go with a wdh. Otherwise you can risk overloading your hitch causing potentially causing hitch failure.
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Old 06-29-2014, 12:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anaro View Post
A wdh actually will transfer some of the weight back to the trailer as well. You could go with a light weight set up like the Anderson hitch. If you are sagging and that close on hitch weight, I would really go with a wdh. Otherwise you can risk overloading your hitch causing potentially causing hitch failure.
Agree, get a wdh and forget about removing weight or shifting the load. If 400+ lbs makes the TV sag even a little, you need the wdh and a sway control. JMO.
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Old 06-29-2014, 10:27 PM   #10
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I thank you all very much for your advice, but as an engineer who also towed cattle and horses as a young adult, I beg to differ on the benefits (in this situation at least) of a WDH. It does not elleviate tongue weight. It simply transfers more of that tongue weight to both axles on the tow vehicle by pulling up on the tow vehicle. The weight is still there as payload, it's just distributed more evenly to the front axle as well. I suppose raising the camper up might distribute a slight amount of weight to the camper's axle through a revised center of gravity, but not much...and I could do the same thing purely for the camper's sake by getting a higher riser hitch bar.

Also, to clarify - my tow vehicle is not sagging excessively. Just a "tad" bit of sag like you'd expect with hitching any trailer up. When looking at the setup hitched, the truck looks very level.

Also, to clarify, my problem is not tongue weight on the hitch itself...which for the Tundra can hold WAY over 500 lbs. My manual doesn't require a WDH until a 5,000 lb trailer, or 500 lbs tongue weight - and that's simply to distribute more load to the front axle, not to reduce tongue weight. I'm going to get down to around 400 by removing the 2nd LP, 2nd battery, and not filling the hot water. So, I don't think I need a WDH. On the contrary, it will only add tongue weight.

Rather, I'm trying to further lessen the number of pounds my truck takes on as "payload" through either the hitch/tongue weight or what's inside the truck bed. So things like making the 228 slightly less tongue heavy (more in the 10% range) would be great. Or transfering the bikes to the roof of the pup so the trailer's axles are carrying it, not my truck's as payload.

I just can't see how most people who roll into the campground with a family of 4, bikes, a canoe, and tons of other crap aren't over their payload capacity...as the Tundra isn't unlike most other 1/2 ton trucks, and certainly those in small SUVs and mini vans have got to be dangerously over.
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Old 06-29-2014, 10:41 PM   #11
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Help me reduce tongue weight

Ok, I have a Tundra and pretty heavy with tongue weight and cargo. Yes a WDH will help transfer some weight to the front. With the camper shell, wood, cooler, drinking water and dogs- my butt sags too about 2 inches. I suggest getting airbags to level it out as I am planning on. But a lot of us here do tow with their tundras with little issuesClick image for larger version

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When we had a high wall pop up, I had a friend reinforce the rear bumper and add a receiver for me. I used a basket to carry the fire wood. It did reduce frontal weight so I would put the genny and cooler inside the trailer to add more back to the front- without it, the death wobbles would occur.

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Old 06-29-2014, 11:44 PM   #12
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Steamboatscott- the wdh does transfer weight to the front axle but in the dynamics of doing so it also transfers a percentage of weight back onto the trailer (I forget the percentage). You asked the question and mentioned the sag so people responded appropriately. You have made your mind up about exactly what you want to do and don't seem to want to hear the suggestions of others, so why ask the question in the first place?
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Old 06-30-2014, 08:21 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anaro View Post
Steamboatscott- the wdh does transfer weight to the front axle but in the dynamics of doing so it also transfers a percentage of weight back onto the trailer (I forget the percentage). You asked the question and mentioned the sag so people responded appropriately. You have made your mind up about exactly what you want to do and don't seem to want to hear the suggestions of others, so why ask the question in the first place?
That is 1 of the benefits of a WDH.....it transfers some of the weight back to the trailer axles..........in my case 140 lbs on a trailer with a 700 lb. tongue weight.

Not saying the OP should use a WDH. But just because Toyota says you don't need a WDH with tongue weights under 500 lbs., doesn't mean you can't use a WDH.

It is good that the OP recognizes the limits of a 1/2 ton truck, even with pulling a pop-up. Passengers, cargo, and the tongue weight all add up in the payload category.
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Old 06-30-2014, 08:30 AM   #14
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Remember that a WD hitch "redistributes" tongue weight and does not change it. The receiver and frame still sees the entire load.

The WD hitch redistributes a portion of the tongue load about equally between the front axle and the camper's axle(s). That portion is dependent on the amount of tension placed on the WD bars.

You must weigh the unit carefully when setting the WD hitch up initially to avoid overloading your front axle and possibly camper's axles. Also too much redistribution can reduce traction on your rear tires and result in loss of control on wet roads (especially with cruise control on - never recommended anyway).
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Old 06-30-2014, 08:35 AM   #15
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Dude, you have nothing to worry about
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Old 06-30-2014, 10:02 AM   #16
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Also depends on terrain and speeds. If you are in hills/mountains then you need to be more diligent with weights. Flat terrain is more forgiving. The WDH with a light axle on a pup may not be the best option. If you are currently underweight leave well enough alone as safety factors are already calculated into the numbers.
What type of camping do you plan on doing. If sites have full hookups leave spare battery and if not using a lot of propane drop a cylinder as well. Do you need bikes or is hiking not an option for exercise? Walks in woods allow for more experience than all whizzing by on a bike. If you want to load more weight to the tv front axle load heavy stuff at the front of the box and lighter stuff to the rear. If there is h2o at site haul dry and there is an anode rod with a built in drain valve. As fam gets older tv changes and trailer changes are likely so I would focus on current rig and situation.
Great you are so diligent on weights when so many aren't. People seen to think any truck can pull any trailer and it's scary. I've seen first hand what can happen when trailers take tv's off the road and roll. Don't want that! But sounds like you are good to go for now so enjoy and be safe.


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Old 06-30-2014, 10:25 AM   #17
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I'd pull that all day with the tundra. More concerned about weight on TT than TV.
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Old 06-30-2014, 12:59 PM   #18
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@Anaro - I'm not ignoring other's advice, but all the "official" sources (distributors and manufacturers) I've talked to on a WDH confirm that it is designed to distribute weight evenly to the front and rear axle of the tow vehicle and will distribute very little (if any) to the camper axle since the camper already rides even. This doesn't help me, as my payload weight is the same. My thread title is about decreasing tongue weight, not redistributing it to the front axle, which a WDH would be very good at. Sorry if you misinterpreted my intentions. I'm on a fact finding mission

Here's what I've done recently...

I measured the distance between axle and tongue for each of my assets: LP tank, battery, hot water storage, and even a Prorac bike carrier (where both front and rear tires would sit). This gave me an estimated tongue weight for each asset, and amazingly it is almost identical to my actual tongue measurements - so I'm confident in using this to estimate what adding or taking away something will do to my tongue weight.

Here are the ideas I'm investigating in case it helps others:

The prorac system doesn't help me much on tongue weight. Adding in the weight of the rack itself, 2 bikes goes from weighing 68 lbs in my truck bed to 57 lbs of tongue weight on the Prorac. Not much of a savings. Even 4 bikes goes from 136 lbs of weight in my truck bed to 97.7 lbs of tongue weight on the Prorac. For me, this isn't worth the effort - so I'm instead looking at a permenant rack on the roof of the popup to place the bike weight mostly on the camper axle. This could get ~140 lbs out of my truck payload and onto the camper axles - a huge difference. Sam @ Flagstaff was very helpful in identifying exactly where the framing is. Contrary to what most dealers do, he does NOT advise mounting the rack to the very edge. Instead, the best part of the roof frame is just inside that corner edging. May be different for your pup, but wanted to pass along to check with him before doing anything.

I'm reconfiguring my LP rack to allow me to only take 1 tank for weekend trips. Immediate 31.5 lb tongue weight savings on a 20 lb propane tank (38.7 lbs for base tank weight plus propane, 81.8% of which is transfered to tongue weight). 1 tank is sufficient for 90% of my trips, even running the furnace fairly liberarly at 10,000 feet in the Rockies and using it to run my fridge.

I might go with only one battery for shorter trips and bring along a second for longer ones. If I do the 2nd, I probably won't go in parallel, as one battery might be "older" (have more charge/discharges) than the other. Instead, I'll switch from 1 battery to the 2nd halfway through my trip. My batteries are right in front of the box, which means 72.7% of their weight is transfered to tongue weight.

For me, maximizing the amount of water I take along is key since I'm boondocking 100% of the time. So, I'd rather give up the 2nd LP than hot water weight, which for me is 6 gallons or 50 lbs, of which only 24.25 is transfered to tongue weight. So, I'm going to try and keep the hot water tank full.

In short, once I understood the exact weight that each asset placed on the tongue, I could make proper decisions on what to keep and what to forego. For now, while my kids are younger, I can technically roll up to Yellowstone fully loaded with 2 LPs, 2 batteries, etc. But when I don't need all that stuff, I'll leave it at home and simply pack a few items like the cooler or a few heavy bags in the popup to give me ~100 lbs fudge factor on my truck's payload capacity.

When my kids grow older and add weight in both themselves and heavier bikes, I'll look at the Prorac permenant install bike rack to put all that on the camper axle rather than the truck's.
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Old 06-30-2014, 02:42 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by steamboatscott View Post
I'm not ignoring other's advice, but all the "official" sources (distributors and manufacturers) I've talked to on a WDH confirm that it is designed to distribute weight evenly to the front and rear axle of the tow vehicle and will distribute very little (if any) to the camper axle since the camper already rides even.
Here's what I've done recently...
Don't know who you have talked to, but using a WDH will throw some of the distributed weight back to the trailer axles. Yes, a WDH is designed to put lost weight back on the TV front axle, but in doing that it takes weight off of the rear TV axle, and some of the distributed weight goes back to the trailer axles.

You can check my spreadsheet here: http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...ats-11523.html

The weight on my trailer axles went from 4620 without a WDH, to 4760 using a WDH.

I suspect that only about 100 lbs. would be redistributed to your trailer since you have a tongue weight that is lighter than mine.
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Old 06-30-2014, 02:51 PM   #20
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A disadvantage of putting bikes on the PUP roof - you HAVE to remove them each and every setup of the PUP. Been there, done that.

A 1/2 ton truck often has less payload ability than a minivan or V6 SUV, strange as it may seem. But a truck is a whole lot easier to upgrade the specs for specific situations - the weak points are known and not buried in unibody construction. And trucks are more completely spec'd out for towing than the minivans and cross-over SUVs.

For example, my Hyundai minivan has a tow rating of 3500 lbs (nothing else, no qualifiers). There is no CGVW. The payload has to be calculated (guessed at) from the tire placard and the book curb weight.

When I hooked up my A122 (similar weights to your PUP), I didn't like the "bounce" of either the A122 or the van during a test drive. Put on a WDH/anti-sway (Equalizer), and handling was restored to normal. That alone justified the WDH/anti-sway for me.

In the end, I'm far more concerned with the feel of the vehicle while towing (and not towing) than what the numbers police say. And with the WDH, the Entourage/A122 combo is a far better and stable rig than my old Explorer/Coleman Westlake PUP without WDH.

just my thoughts and experiences
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