Loose Wire or Security?

[Zambolie]

So tonight as I crawled under the camper to close the fresh water valve to fill my tank; I touched the frame under the camper and received a nice little jolt of electricity.

I have not found anything odd or any bare wires. Should I be real concerned with this? Enough to cancel my trip tomorrow?

[fonzie]

If you have a multimeter, put meter on AC 150 volt scale and measure from frame to ground. If you get 0, then put on DC scale 25 volts and measure same. If it happens when plugged to shore power and you get 120 or close (could be 75 volts for example) you need to find where the hot wire is touching the frame (could be in power center, shore power extension cord etc etc. If you can not locate, add a ground rod to the frame of your trailer and measure again for zero volts. This is only temporary and needs to be repaired. Also if you are using a 15 amps extension cord for shore power and the ground has been cut off, you might be able to plug in reverse polarity? or a miswired receptacle. That's a start.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by fonzie

Also if you are using a 15 amps extension cord for shore power and the ground has been cut off, you might be able to plug in reverse polarity? or a miswired receptacle. That's a start.

As Fonzie pointed out several possible causes, there are some that can be a common occurrence. If you were plugged into a form of shore power when you got shocked, I would definitely be checking for reversed polarity in the outlet or cord first.

I had read where you posted a question about an extension cord to your air-conditioner. Are you currently using one, when you noticed this hot skin condition?

http://www.forestriverforums.com/for...tml#post377204

Here is more info on identifying and checking for RV 'hot skin".

RV Electrical Safety: Part IV

http://blog.rv.net/2009/10/rv-doctor...n-test-how-to/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8h64X33aKg

Please keep us informed on what you discover is causing your problem, so other members may learn.

[Zambolie]

Thanks for the responses! I did not think about the extension cord I was using between the house power and the 30amp extension cord. I know the 15 cord was re-wired. I am betting this is the case. I am hooking up in a few minutes and heading out to IN. I am going to stop and grab a meter to test this at the CS. with and without the 30amp cord. Nothing wrong with a stop at the hardware store.

I'll bet a 6pack that it is the 15amp cord!

Thank you, Fonzie and WM!!

[TURBS]

Black wire on gold screw white wire on silver screw and obviously green on green.

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by Zambolie

I'll bet a 6pack that it is the 15amp cord!

I think that would be a safe bet.

Once you test it, let us know for sure......and we'll move this topic to the solved status.

Since we are talking about reverse polarity, it's good for fellow RV'ers to have these $5 outlet testers in their bag. Not only can you check the 15/20 amp outlets and cords(when plugged in) with them..........you can also check the 30 amp outlet when used in conjunction with a 30 amp to 15 amp adapter.

[jmsokol]

Originally Posted by wmtire

I would definitely be checking for reversed polarity in the outlet or cord first.

Just to clarify, a reversed polarity (swapped Hot and Neutral) should NEVER be able to cause an RV hot-skin condition as long as you have a low-resistance ground connected via the green "ground" wire. In order to have any kind of shock from an RV, you either need to have a compromised safety ground (broken connector, cut wire, busted dog-bone adapter, ungrounded power outlet, etc...) or be plugged into an outlet with something I call an RPBG (Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground). Note that an RPBG outlet cannot be found with any 3-light tester or even a voltmeter between H-N, H-G and G-N as one might suppose. You either need to measure the skin-voltage to a rod stuck in the ground (should be within a volt or two of zero) or use a Non-Contact Voltage Tester (Fluke VoltAlert or similar) to check the bias against ground. I think this was linked to earlier in the thread, but here's my article on RPBG's on Gary Bunzer's newsletter at http://www.rvdoctor.com/2001/07/frie...gary-mike.html

Most likely the cause of your hot-skin is a broken ground connection in the 15-amp cord, and any sort of appliance leakage to ground is elevating your RV chassis voltage to 60 volts or more. While not immediately deadly, a high-impdance hot-skin can go low-impedance in the blink of an eye, and that certainly is deadly. I think that EVERY RV owner should have a voltmeter and know how to use it. See RV Electrical Safety: Part II – Meters | No~Shock~Zone for my meter tutorial.

Note that ANY RV (no matter how expensive) can be electrically compromised by a broken extension cord or plugging into an improperly wired outlet. Incorrect outlet wiring does not discriminate, it's an equal opportunity shocker.

Mike Sokol
No Shock Zone

[Herk7769]

I think it should be checked out as well.

The frame should never be at a higher potential than ground. Lying on wet earth (you said you drained your fresh tank) would reduce your resistance quite a bit as well making a "hit" more easily felt.

I used a metal box wall switch in the basement for 10 years with no issue before I touched the metal wall plate in bare feet. Knocked me into next week.

Discovered there was no ground wire and the switch was a leaker...

[jmsokol]

Originally Posted by herk7769

I think it should be checked out as well.

The frame should never be at a higher potential than ground. Lying on wet earth (you said you drained your fresh tank) would reduce your resistance quite a bit as well making a "hit" more easily felt.

I used a metal box wall switch in the basement for 10 years with no issue before I touched the metal wall plate in bare feet. Knocked me into next week.

Discovered there was no ground wire and the switch was a leaker...

We can assume that a human body with wet hands and feet has somewhere around 1,000 ohms resistance. Note that as little as 10 mA of current across the chest cavity is painful and 30 mA of current for more than a few seconds generally causes atrial fibrillation (and heart stoppage). Since voltage divided by resistance equals current, then 30 volts divided by 1,000 ohms equals 30 mA (milli-amps) of current which is right at the danger threshold. You can feel 10 volts AC on wet skin very well which works out to 10 mA of current. While 10 mA of current is generally not going to kill you, but it's a big warning about possible electrocution (death). A little math shows you that 120 volts across a 1,000 ohm load (you, with wet hands) can dump 120 mA across your chest, which is almost certainly fatal without paramedic intervention and a big shock of DC current across your heart.

So the next time you feel a shock with dry hands and/or feet, it was probably at least 40 volts to punch through your dry skin. If you happen to wet your hands and touch the same appliance, it could be the last thing you do.

NEVER accept any sort of shock from an RV or appliance as normal. As the previous poster noted, (and I teach in all my NoShockZone classes), if your RV is more than a volt or two above earth-ground potential, then you need to get it fixed RIGHT NOW. I've heard way too many heartbreaking stories of consumers being electrocuted when everyone "knew" there was a shock potential and didn't do anything about it.

Mike Sokol
No Shock Zone

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by jmsokol

NEVER accept any sort of shock from an RV or appliance as normal. As the previous poster noted, (and I teach in all my NoShockZone classes), if your RV is more than a volt or two above earth-ground potential, then you need to get it fixed RIGHT NOW. I've heard way too many heartbreaking stories of consumers being electrocuted when everyone "knew" there was a shock potential and didn't do anything about it.

Mike Sokol
No Shock Zone

Thanks Mike for the clarification... and for all the great videos and literature you have made in educating fellow RV'ers.

[Jeep4Two]

Mike, thanks for the great link.... I've been reading and reading. Who knew!?!?

Question: can a regular 120v outlet tester be used inside the camper (or on the outside camper outlet) to check for proper polarity after hooking to the pedestal? Or must one get a 30amp to 15amp adapter to properly check at the pedestal? In other words will the reverse polarity be detected in the campers 120v outlets?

I think this is going to be a regular safety check for me and want to do it right.

I have a meter and am reading your articles but am VERY respectful of electricity and would rather use a plug and play type device as the little yellow outlet tester.

Thanks again for the great articles.

[VinceU]

Had it happen to me, testing air pressure on my last RV, kneeling in damp grass got the sh__ knocked out of me when I reached across and touched a wheel cover with the back of my hand. This also reverses polarity to all appliances inside, only way to get shocked is to touch metal while grounded outside. Not a good wakeup call however! Turns out it was grounded extension cord, but hot and neutral were reversed.

[jmsokol]

Originally Posted by Jeep4Two

Question: can a regular 120v outlet tester be used inside the camper (or on the outside camper outlet) to check for proper polarity after hooking to the pedestal? Or must one get a 30amp to 15amp adapter to properly check at the pedestal? In other words will the reverse polarity be detected in the campers 120v outlets?

Yes, plugging a little 3-light tester into an RV's outlet inside (or outside) the camper will indeed indicate a standard reversed polarity campground pedestal (swapped Hot/Neutral). However it WILL NOT indicate a pedestal or home outlet that's been miswired as an RPBG. Interestingly, after I identified and named this effect a year ago, I've discovered that the entire electrical industry seems to be unaware of RPBG mis-wired outlets. In fact, my article titled "Failures in Outlet Testing" is supposed to run in the June edition of EC&M magazine. Please watch my video at

Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground Testing - YouTube

So that means that a 3-light tester inside your RV will catch MOST mis-wiring conditions, but not ALL mis-wiring conditions. For instance, in addition to missing an RPBG, it won't find an under or over voltage outlet either.

However, that being said, if you want a Plug-N-Play situation, then adding a Voltage/Surge protector such one of the Progressive Industries products is a good idea. See RV Electrical Safety: Surge Strips | No~Shock~Zone

But note that you should also back it up with a Non-Contact Voltage Tester, an RPBG from Fluke or Klein. See RV Electrical Safety: Part IV

Mike Sokol
No Shock Zone

[jmsokol]

Originally Posted by VinceU

Had it happen to me, testing air pressure on my last RV, kneeling in damp grass got the sh__ knocked out of me when I reached across and touched a wheel cover with the back of my hand. This also reverses polarity to all appliances inside, only way to get shocked is to touch metal while grounded outside. Not a good wakeup call however! Turns out it was grounded extension cord, but hot and neutral were reversed.

Note that if your RV is properly wired with the Neutral buss isolated from the safety Ground, then simply reversing the Hot and Neutral wires in an extension cord WILL NOT cause an RV hot-skin condition. However, if your RV is mis-wired with a bonded Ground-Neutal, then plugging it into a standard "Reverse Polarity" extension cord as you indicated CAN cause a hot-skin condition. (Note this is NOT a description of RPBG outlets in my other posting, since an RPBG can't be detected by any standard test methods, nor will any voltage/surge protector from any of the manufactures find it as well. I've confirmed this statement with the major surge protector engineering groups)

So the hint is this: If a standard reverse polarity outlet (as indicated by a 3-light tester) causes a hot-skin, then there's something else mis-wired inside your RV's electrical system. This isn't just opinion on my part, but rather something that's described in both the RVIA and NFPA NEC code.

I could set up a demonstration of this effect and create a video for consumer review, but sadly I get ZERO support from the RV or electrical test industry for these video and articles. Please ask your Forest River dealer or representative to support more NoShockZone articles. I have very little free time to create more NoShockZone content, but think it's important for the safety of all RV users.

Mike Sokol
No Shock Zone

[SchafferFamily]

I read Mike's post III on checking the ground and shore power a while back and I was using the testing probes into the outlet for a while to check the shore power before hooking up our popup.

This year, I bought a PRIME polarity and voltage meter and a 30-15amp adapter to check it a lot easier, and in my opinion, safer. There were times I had to hold the shore power cover up while testing with the meter, kind of difficult to do with only two hands. This setup lets me check the shore power pole first, and then if I wanted to monitor the voltage at the campground I can plug it into on of my camper outlets.

[jmsokol]

Originally Posted by SchafferFamily

This year, I bought a PRIME polarity and voltage meter and a 30-15amp adapter to check it a lot easier, and in my opinion, safer.

That's a VERY GOOD suggestion, since I too have problems getting the probes in the outlet contacts at times. I would also recommend you also add in inexpensive NCVT (Non Contact Voltage Tester) such as a Fluke VoltAlert or Klein NCVT-1 which will tell you in a few seconds if there's a RPBG outlet (Reverse Polarity Bootleg Ground) simply by turning the on the NCVT and poking it in the outlet's ground contact (if it lights up and beeps, then DO NOT plug in). Remember that your Prime Polarity/Voltage Meter will detect most outlet mis-wirings, but can't identify an RPBG outlet.

You can also use your NCVT to casually test other RV's for hot-skin conditions as you walk by in a campground. If there's an RV with a hot-skin condition elevated to 120-volts, your NCVT will light up and beep from 1 to 2 feet away.... Yikes!!!! You could save someone's life by warning them about the hot-skin, which is always a great thing.

Mike Sokol
No Shock Zone

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by SchafferFamily

I read Mike's post III on checking the ground and shore power a while back and I was using the testing probes into the outlet for a while to check the shore power before hooking up our popup.

This year, I bought a PRIME polarity and voltage meter and a 30-15amp adapter to check it a lot easier, and in my opinion, safer. There were times I had to hold the shore power cover up while testing with the meter, kind of difficult to do with only two hands. This setup lets me check the shore power pole first, and then if I wanted to monitor the voltage at the campground I can plug it into on of my camper outlets.

I have one of those that I leave plugged in the RV to monitor voltage. Works great.

I also made one of the following testers that utilizes an outlet tester and an analog voltmeter. I believe the circuit/outlet tester checks for a few more things than the Prime one does.

30-amp RV outlet Tester

[wmtire]

Originally Posted by jmsokol

You can also use your NCVT to casually test other RV's for hot-skin conditions as you walk by in a campground. If there's an RV with a hot-skin condition elevated to 120-volts, your NCVT will light up and beep from 1 to 2 feet away.... Yikes!!!! You could save someone's life by warning them about the hot-skin, which is always a great thing.

Mike Sokol
No Shock Zone

Dang Mike, you're going to make me spend some money today.

Hmm, now if I can just make this business related, so the company can pay for it. LOL

[jmsokol]

Originally Posted by wmtire

Dang Mike, you're going to make me spend some money today.

Hmm, now if I can just make this business related, so the company can pay for it. LOL

The customer liaison at Heartland RV just bought 10 of the Klein NCVT-1 testers to give away as door prizes a their next Rally. I think you should find out who your customer rep is at Forest River and make the same suggestion. Perhaps they should send you one free for giving them the idea.

That's how to get stuff for "free" which is always good.
Mike Sokol
No Shock Zone

[awwall]

This is why I never hook up without my Progressive Industries EMS-PT50C. Yep, a few bucks, but a lot of peace of mind.