A thought about Quality Control.

[luv2drum]

This is a serious discussion....whether the term of Quality Control is the real cause of the poor craftsmanship?

Ok....I'll admit I've used that term in my posts and stand by it as the concept it stands for. Our Solaire has had many issues that shouldn't have ever made it off the factory floor, like a bathroom wall that is cut about 1/4" too long, causing it to bow badly, which then was caulked heavily in an attempt to "glue and seal" the wall to the side wall. In then end, the caulk failed, leaving the wall terribly bowed and several staples popping out.

Or the bathroom door that was not mortised properly, so the latch is literally about 1/4" too high.

Or a behind the shower wall major leak, discovered to be a screw driven through the hot water line to the shower fixture?

Or two brackets on the bottom of the unit which hold up the fresh water tank, both having two bolts on each end. I found my unit missing three bolts on each side. So yes, one bracket wasn't bolted at all, but rather was literally left resting on the LP gas line, which was the only thing holding it up. Fortunately I caught it.

Were those issues from a back office budget perspective, the designer's issue, the actual factory floor workman's fault, the foreman's fault or the guy at the end of the line who should have caught it during the QC inspection? I really don't care, it shouldn't have happened period. Yes, I accepted the unit with those issues, so I'm at fault too. I could have done a more thorough inspection. Or, as a consumer, I could have chosen another brand, or decided not to purchase at all due to issues in the RV industry all together. But you'd sure hope if you spend over $22K or more on a unit like these, you'd be able to have confidence the design was built properly. My take is seeing designs that aren't crafted properly doesn't point to a design issue, but poor workmanship on the factory floor and poor inspections before the units leave the factory.

Bottom line, it's frustrating and whether QC is the "right term" or not, my point still stands as the manufacturer shouldn't have allowed it.

[rockwood06]

Originally Posted by caper

If the RV industry was to follow the ISO9001 program then they would have a better product. If they are already working under ISO program then they should loss their rating.

You have hit the nail right on the head, this the biggest problem. The RV industry follows almost no programs, as far as quality it starts at the top and the first step is Engineering and then it is all down hill from there. I see this everyday...yes your tax money being flushed down the drain because of poor engineering. You can put the best male or females on a poorly engineer job and it still comes out poor amd the person on the bottom gets the blame.

[rhumbert]

Been through ISO certification a couple times at different companies.
Sorry, it does not mean you meet specific engineering/assembly standards put together by some lofty perfect world specifications, it just means you do what you say you are going to do.
Workmanship means everything. Mistakes or inefficiencies can be made in engineering that workers see but we didn't. We used incentive programs on the shop floor to help with this. The folks on the line are amazing. They are always finding better ways to do things. The plus side is it makes their job easier too.
Maybe that is the issue. Not giving the folks on the floor the power or incentive to make the difference in a truly great product.
Management 101: give them the tools they need and they will walk through fire for you.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by rhumbert

Been through ISO certification a couple times at different companies.
Sorry, it does not mean you meet specific engineering/assembly standards put together by some lofty perfect world specifications, it just means you do what you say you are going to do.
Workmanship means everything. Mistakes or inefficiencies can be made in engineering that workers see but we didn't. We used incentive programs on the shop floor to help with this. The folks on the line are amazing. They are always finding better ways to do things. The plus side is it makes their job easier too.
Maybe that is the issue. Not giving the folks on the floor the power or incentive to make the difference in a truly great product.
Management 101: give them the tools they need and they will walk through fire for you.

ISO certification also means you have written procedures for EVERY dept in the company or plant and that there are internal audits verifying those procedures are being followed. There are also quality standards that must be met. That being said, ISO certification is the best certification you can buy.

Don't know, but would bet FR plants are not ISO certified and if any are, I would love to do an ISO 9001 audit like I did for Lockheed Martin.

[Jim Scofield]

It would be interesting to hear bclemens insight on this and how these things keep happening?

[prairiecamper]

Having been in aviation for 35 + years I have to agree with statements made by B47 and oldcoot. QA and Qc has to be built into the culture of the workplace and has to be driven from the top down!

I have to dis-agree with the quote below, because with the right work culture it doesn't take any longer or cost any more to do a particular task the right way first time, every time! Ok I'll get off the pedestal now!

Originally Posted by F and E Damp

If RVs were built in accordance with FAA/aircraft industry rules and procedures, we'd end up paying airplane prices for them. There should be some middle ground, where a good quality product could be made at a reasonable price.

Maybe the people who make the rules for automobile crash-worthiness should turn their attention to RV's.

[rhumbert]

"Maybe the people who make the rules for automobile crash-worthiness should turn their attention to RV's."

That's the last thing you want, a government bureaucracy telling you how to do things. Geez, this is America. Well, it used to be. Your feet (wallet) should determine what companies survive. Continuing quality issues will eventually catch up with the bad ones. That's why forums are great, it accelerates the process.

[tetsurvivor]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

Evidently some people have never seen the quality work performed by Amish people. When you want quality, you will find they are some of the best, regardless of whether they have electricity in their homes and use horses for transportation. I will stop before I get in trouble, but it really riles me when folks make uninformed statements like what was made.

I have a 2011 Georgetown 360RB, the fit and finish inside this MH is impeccable, the doors and cabinets are perfect. The biggest problem are the things provided by the suppliers that are crap. Start with Dometic 4 door refrigerator first it was the flap that is supposed to seal the door when closed, still doesn't unless you give it a tug, then the thermister quit and recently on an eight day trip on day two the fridge totally quit so we bought a big cooler. Next the small commode in the front toilet quit flushing. There have been absolutely no problems with the Ford F530 this worked perfectly. I could go on but I really wanted to say, I wish the Amish made everything in my MH.

[B47]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

ISO certification also means you have written procedures for EVERY dept in the company or plant and that there are internal audits verifying those procedures are being followed. There are also quality standards that must be met. That being said, ISO certification is the best certification you can buy.

Don't know, but would bet FR plants are not ISO certified and if any are, I would love to do an ISO 9001 audit like I did for Lockheed Martin.

I was wondering when ISO would pop up here - It was ISO 9000 when I first became aware of the process and I was still employed as a FAA Airworthiness Inspector.

What OC says about having written procedures is correct - Our FAA office is part of what the FAA calls Flight Standards ( we are sometimes called the cops because we enforce the regulations that pertain to aircraft certification, maintenance, pilot certification and flight operations.

When the FAA decided to get on the ISO bandwagon, we had to develop procedures manuals, re number and re named all of our office forms, etc.

It was quite an undertaking and then we had to pass the ISO auditors tests - quite a turnaround for us because we were always the guys testing others and not the ones being tested.

We never got into the manufacturing side of ISO because we never manufactured anything.

I haven't heard or seen much about ISO since I retired.

[joelek]

ISO means you documented how you do things on paper. ISO rated manufacturing plant does not mean that they continued to do what they documented they do AFTER the company received the ISO rating. ISO came and went over the last 10 years. I've been in the automated packaging machinery business for 25 years and ISO has all but faded away from our industry. I don't see it in bid specs anymore.

Today's flavor of the day is FDA validation protocols. This to will fade to black if you give it enough time. Consultants have a way of inventing new grand schemes of a much better idea and way to do something to ensure quality.

The RV industry is actually a young industry. Figure it got going in earnest in 50's. Eventually and probably sooner than later, the old farts running the show will retire, die off, etc. The next generation of manufactures and buyers will take over. For all we know, a 40K built in the USA RV will come from overseas for 20K and be built just fine.

[B47]

Originally Posted by joelek

ISO means you documented how you do things on paper. ISO rated manufacturing plant does not mean that they continued to do what they documented they do AFTER the company received the ISO rating. ISO came and went over the last 10 years. I've been in the automated packaging machinery business for 25 years and ISO has all but faded away from our industry. I don't see it in bid specs anymore.

Today's flavor of the day is FDA validation protocols. This to will fade to black if you give it enough time. Consultants have a way of inventing new grand schemes of a much better idea and way to do something to ensure quality.

The RV industry is actually a young industry. Figure it got going in earnest in 50's. Eventually and probably sooner than later, the old farts running the show will retire, die off, etc. The next generation of manufactures and buyers will take over. For all we know, a 40K built in the USA RV will come from overseas for 20K and be built just fine.

Slight disagree about what happens after a company receives their ISO certification - 1.- that being that if that happens, that company is not living up to the ISO standards they strove to and 2 - they are not receiving the kind of audits they should be.

I do agree that it seems to have lost the status it was supposed to have when the ISO concept started - but I have no way og knowing if that is true or not.

[Jim Scofield]

Sadly I would hazard to guess as others have, that if China entered this industry they would bring a higher level of quality and quality control to the consumer. It would appear that the industry "gets away" with it because they have no off shore threat to them . Maybe that will change soon?

[OL Creeker]

Ret. from GM, worked in QC. Let me assure you, from what I saw, part of the QC debate lies clearly in the financial dept. if there's an issue with a widget, before anything is done about it, the question about warranty comes into play. The general question is how many units will fail PRIOR to warranty expiration?! Trust me, money is a businesses first consideration. FR as well as any other corp., is in business not to make the product, but to make money.

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by arjerram

... FR as well as any other corp., is in business not to make the product, but to make money.

Can't be true, they are in business to make a product(s) and make money. Can't have one without the other. No product, no money.

[Rrickim63]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

Can't be true, they are in business to make a product(s) and make money. Can't have one without the other. No product, no money.

The reality is the engineering is amazing.. the execution of the build is not always up to par.. the industry knows that most products assembled only have a one year warranty. Most major problems will show up long after the warranty expires. How many units can get built in 1 day is all the workers on the floor care about ( generally). Known defects in workmanship are for dealers to repair is the mentality.. ship it!

[OldCoot]

Originally Posted by Rrickim63

The reality is the engineering is amazing.. the execution of the build is not always up to par.. the industry knows that most products assembled only have a one year warranty. Most major problems will show up long after the warranty expires. How many units can get built in 1 day is all the workers on the floor care about ( generally). Known defects in workmanship are for dealers to repair is the mentality.. ship it!

Have to stress again, the workers do what they are told. You need to beat up on management from the floor foremen/supervisor clear to the top and in ALL the offices, engr., quality, accounting, logistics etc. You need to experience trying to do something with someone shouting at you to hurry, hurry, hurry at every task.

[Rrickim63]

Originally Posted by OldCoot

Have to stress again, the workers do what they are told. You need to beat up on management from the floor foremen/supervisor clear to the top and in ALL the offices, engr., quality, accounting, logistics etc. You need to experience trying to do something with someone shouting at you to hurry, hurry, hurry at every task.

Agree

[joelek]

Originally Posted by B47

Slight disagree about what happens after a company receives their ISO certification - 1.- that being that if that happens, that company is not living up to the ISO standards they strove to and 2 - they are not receiving the kind of audits they should be.

I do agree that it seems to have lost the status it was supposed to have when the ISO concept started - but I have no way og knowing if that is true or not.

I agree with you 100%. Once the ISO is registered with a company, many of them fell back to their old ways. AND audits were expensive so they did not happen. This is why ISO faded away in my industry.

[B47]

Originally Posted by joelek

I agree with you 100%. Once the ISO is registered with a company, many of them fell back to their old ways. AND audits were expensive so they did not happen. This is why ISO faded away in my industry.

Isn't there some sort of Headquarters of ISO that keeps up with the audits and if an ISO holder doesn't have audits and passes them, some sort of revoking the status process?

[BuckeyeChuck]

Originally Posted by Jim Scofield

Sadly I would hazard to guess as others have, that if China entered this industry they would bring a higher level of quality and quality control to the consumer. It would appear that the industry "gets away" with it because they have no off shore threat to them . Maybe that will change soon?

It's sad but true but it took the Japanese to bring the American Automotive industry around. If just one RV manufacture would put out a quality product equal the trucks that tow them maybe the rest would have to follow suit.

-BC-