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Old 06-12-2014, 03:10 PM   #31
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Camaraderie,

When I boondock I run my gens enough during the day to charge the batts back up. But your right AGM's may not be the best bet.

I'm not at my trailer right now, so off the cuff my one TV 50w runs on the 600w inverter, the other 19" is a 12 volt 80w. 4 incandescent lights. I'm only guessing but I'd say at one time I use 300w? Sound right?
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Old 06-12-2014, 03:11 PM   #32
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Hey Herk researching these out comparing the Die Hard Platinum to the Trojan AGM
Die Hard 53lbs 68 Amp Hours @ 20
Trojan 54 lbs 76 Amp Hours @20
The big difference for me is the CCA where the Die Hard pulls away at 860 the Trojan is 500. I'm NOT using the batts to start anything but I do want to reiterate that I'm needing more power at a shorter interval. At night I run a 600w inverter 2 TV's and some lights for a couple of hours before bed. (like 2-3 hours)
I run my gens enought during the day to recharge the batts, so my hitch in all this is that a Trojan while it would certainly last longer than the Die Hard, wouldn't power the stuff I want to run. Am I understanding it all wrong?
Thanks in advance for your help on this!
You are trying to compare apples and oranges. The AGMs have less AH than a comparably sized flooded cell battery and far more expensive.

CCA has no meaning AT ALL when talking about storage capacity unless you are planning on discharging that battery in 30 seconds (what CCA means).

What does CCA mean?

Cold Cranking Amps is a rating used in the battery industry to define a battery's ability to start an engine in cold temperatures. The rating is the number of amps a new, fully charged battery can deliver at 0 Farenheit for 30 seconds, while maintaining a voltage of at least 7.2 volts, for a 12 volt battery. The higher the CCA rating, the greater the starting power of the battery.

AH rating per pound of battery at the lowest cost should be your measure.

Frequently Asked Questions

You say you run the generator to recharge the batteries. Just so you know, you can easily remove more amperage from your battery in far less time than a generator powering your converter can replace by running the generator for DAYS. Your converter is designed to step down the charging rate as the battery is recharged to avoid harming it. It can take over 52 hours to recharge a depleted battery using the converter.

The switch from Bulk to Absorbtion occurs at 50% of battery capacity and the switch from Absorption to Float occurs at 80% of capacity.
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Old 06-12-2014, 03:54 PM   #33
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Not trying to cause "ripples" in the water, but here is an article on AGM versus flooded.

Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) Battery Information - Battery University

I have seen other articles stating the same thing, that an AGM is the best (albeit costly) way to go over a flooded.

In looking at the Trojans I can't fit anything other than their group 24 Gel based on the listed measurments.

I'm not sure what to do now... hang on to my Die Hards?
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Old 06-12-2014, 04:03 PM   #34
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Camaraderie,

When I boondock I run my gens enough during the day to charge the batts back up. But your right AGM's may not be the best bet.

I'm not at my trailer right now, so off the cuff my one TV 50w runs on the 600w inverter, the other 19" is a 12 volt 80w. 4 incandescent lights. I'm only guessing but I'd say at one time I use 300w? Sound right?
I really don't have any idea. Nor do I think you have any idea of whether your batteries are fully charged or not and no idea whether you are murdering them or not by taking them below 50%.
You can either add up the DC loads by figuring them out while you are on the coach....i.e. how BIG is each incandescent... how much DRAW does your inverter use at idle with nothing else on....how much draw does your car radio memory and your propane monitor draw. etc. etc.

The easy alternative...is to buy a very useful AC/DC clamp multimeter for around 50 bucks and clamp your battery wire as you turn things on and off.

Then you'll know what AMPS you use.... and whether you need to add more batteries or more generator time. Is your generator hooked up to a separate battery charger? How many amps is the battery charger you are using??

You can't put MORE than 30 amps an hour INTO the batteries on recharge in bulk mode (assuming 2x group24) and it will take you at least 4 hours of run time to put back 75 amp hours once the charger ramps down to absorb and float mode.
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Old 06-12-2014, 04:25 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by JCamper View Post
Not trying to cause "ripples" in the water, but here is an article on AGM versus flooded.

Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) Battery Information - Battery University

I have seen other articles stating the same thing, that an AGM is the best (albeit costly) way to go over a flooded.

In looking at the Trojans I can't fit anything other than their group 24 Gel based on the listed measurments.

I'm not sure what to do now... hang on to my Die Hards?
NO...that is simply a DEAD WRONG analysis of the article. Let's look at the + and minus' of AGM based on the article:

Spill-proof through acid encapsulation in matting technology
High specific power, low internal resistance, responsive to load
Up to 5 times faster charge than with flooded technology
Better cycle life than with flooded systems
Water retention (oxygen and hydrogen combine to produce water)
Vibration resistance due to sandwich construction
Stands up well to cold temperature
Limitations
Higher manufacturing cost than flooded (but cheaper than gel)
Sensitive to overcharging (gel has tighter tolerances than AGM)
Capacity has gradual decline (gel has a performance dome)
Low specific energy
Must be stored in charged condition (less critical than flooded)
Not environmentally friendly (has less electrolyte, lead that flooded)

Now lets add negatives....2-3 times the price. Doesn't like HEAT. DOESN'T Like to be continuously left on float. MUST be charged to 100% each time or capacity will be lost. FEWER life cycles than the comparable quality wet cell (Trojan will tell you this on their site and they make and sell both!)

Then lets' review the advantages of AGM as it applies to you.
NO WATERING is a nice benefit.
Spill Proof is of no concern in an upright coach.
Low internal resistance...good for charging IF you have a HUGE charger.
High Current power....good IF you have BIG instantaneous amp loads...you don't.
Better life cycle...an outright falsehood not supported by any battery mfr. ...try to find THAT claim on any battery mfr. site compared to their wet cells. Trojan says the opposite.
Cold temperature performance is better. Do you plan to use the coach in below zero F conditions?
Good vibration resistance...true compared to normal batts...but NOT compared to quality deep cycles like Trojan wet cells.

Don't get me wrong. I lived full time off the grid for 6 years and had an 1100 amp hour AGM bank...because I needed it for instant current drains, had a huge charger (130amps) had an 8kw generator to power the charger and batteries in an inaccessible area for watering with no ventilation.
They were the answer for me.
If you want to buy them...help yourself...they will certainly work. I think you will kill them in short order (2 years or less) given your prior posts and inability to monitor usage, charging, state of charge etc.
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Old 06-12-2014, 04:45 PM   #36
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There is clearly enough information here for you to make an informed decision; or you can just do what you want.
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Old 06-12-2014, 05:40 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
NO...that is simply a DEAD WRONG analysis of the article. Let's look at the + and minus' of AGM based on the article:

Spill-proof through acid encapsulation in matting technology
High specific power, low internal resistance, responsive to load
Up to 5 times faster charge than with flooded technology
Better cycle life than with flooded systems
Water retention (oxygen and hydrogen combine to produce water)
Vibration resistance due to sandwich construction
Stands up well to cold temperature
Limitations
Higher manufacturing cost than flooded (but cheaper than gel)
Sensitive to overcharging (gel has tighter tolerances than AGM)
Capacity has gradual decline (gel has a performance dome)
Low specific energy
Must be stored in charged condition (less critical than flooded)
Not environmentally friendly (has less electrolyte, lead that flooded)

Now lets add negatives....2-3 times the price. Doesn't like HEAT. DOESN'T Like to be continuously left on float. MUST be charged to 100% each time or capacity will be lost. FEWER life cycles than the comparable quality wet cell (Trojan will tell you this on their site and they make and sell both!)

Then lets' review the advantages of AGM as it applies to you.
NO WATERING is a nice benefit.
Spill Proof is of no concern in an upright coach.
Low internal resistance...good for charging IF you have a HUGE charger.
High Current power....good IF you have BIG instantaneous amp loads...you don't.
Better life cycle...an outright falsehood not supported by any battery mfr. ...try to find THAT claim on any battery mfr. site compared to their wet cells. Trojan says the opposite.
Cold temperature performance is better. Do you plan to use the coach in below zero F conditions?
Good vibration resistance...true compared to normal batts...but NOT compared to quality deep cycles like Trojan wet cells.

Don't get me wrong. I lived full time off the grid for 6 years and had an 1100 amp hour AGM bank...because I needed it for instant current drains, had a huge charger (130amps) had an 8kw generator to power the charger and batteries in an inaccessible area for watering with no ventilation.
They were the answer for me.
If you want to buy them...help yourself...they will certainly work. I think you will kill them in short order (2 years or less) given your prior posts and inability to monitor usage, charging, state of charge etc.

I apologize if it's inappropriate for me to 'hijack' your conversion but since we are avid boondockers it really caught my interest.
Wouldn't 6 Volt GC batteries offer better 'bang (AMP/h) for the weight'.
Other benefits of AGM batteries are, and that is why I really prefer them is they don't need to be vented, can be mounted in any position and don't corrode around the pols.
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Old 06-12-2014, 06:21 PM   #38
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I apologize if it's inappropriate for me to 'hijack' your conversion but since we are avid boondockers it really caught my interest.
Wouldn't 6 Volt GC batteries offer better 'bang (AMP/h) for the weight'.
Other benefits of AGM batteries are, and that is why I really prefer them is they don't need to be vented, can be mounted in any position and don't corrode around the pols.
Not to answer for Cam, but I feel the advantage of being able to stay out when a plate shorts out in one of the batteries makes the 6 volt option a non-starter for me. Since you still need 2 batteries to make 12 volts (and the AH does not double), 2 12 volt batteries makes more sense to me.

I like AGMs too, but you really have to "not care about the cost" to go there since you can buy a lot more AH for the money with flooded cell. I also leave my batteries on the converter 24/7 so the AGM limitation of "not likeing" float is also a concern.
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Old 06-12-2014, 06:50 PM   #39
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Not to answer for Cam, but I feel the advantage of being able to stay out when a plate shorts out in one of the batteries makes the 6 volt option a non-starter for me. Since you still need 2 batteries to make 12 volts (and the AH does not double), 2 12 volt batteries makes more sense to me.

I like AGMs too, but you really have to "not care about the cost" to go there since you can buy a lot more AH for the money with flooded cell. I also leave my batteries on the converter 24/7 so the AGM limitation of "not likeing" float is also a concern.
You are 100% correct, double the current or double the AH not both. I feel so embarrassed now, I used to have equipment with 12V batteries in series, parallel or single how could I not see this.

I still prefer the cleanliness in the battery bay .
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Old 06-12-2014, 07:21 PM   #40
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I apologize if it's inappropriate for me to 'hijack' your conversion but since we are avid boondockers it really caught my interest.
Wouldn't 6 Volt GC batteries offer better 'bang (AMP/h) for the weight'.
Other benefits of AGM batteries are, and that is why I really prefer them is they don't need to be vented, can be mounted in any position and don't corrode around the pols.
For any 4 bank or more, then 6V makes excellent sense to me but for just 2 I prefer 12V for the reasons Herk said. ALSO..the REASON 6V makes sense is because you can get them cheap at sams and costco... and there's no place to get a TRUE deep cycle 12V Grp.31 that is competitive. 2 group 31's are every bit as good as golf carts...but the bank for the buck piece is missing!
I think that for people like you who boondock a lot...and have a big battery bank and battery monitor and understand the things that will ruin an AGM vs. a wet cell...AGM's can be an excellent choice.
We plan to do a lot of boondocking too but I'm not gonna mess with my bank right away as I want to understand our usage and space for both batts & cable runs. I may end up with AGM's again too but I'm probably just gonna install a Victron at first to preserve what the coach comes with and figure out my real usage & needs when I'm on "the hook" before deciding.
It's not clear to me if you have AGM 6V now or not... FWIW...I had the EastPenn/Deka's (8D's) and they served me very well at a price that was well below the Trojans and Lifelines...with virtually identical specs. They also make a 6V AGM.
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