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Old 05-05-2017, 11:11 AM   #21
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KansasJohn's alert points to a really good deal for a good quality inverter generator for RVers. I bought one of the Dual Fuel 3400/3100 watt models (about $400 more) about 2 months ago and it runs like a champ (sorry for the poor pun)!. But, let me pass on a very important tip I learned from Champion's technical support department. I have also installed a 30 Amp Progressive Industries EMS (Model EMS-HW30-C) to safeguard against voltage fluctuations and surges -- but the EMS will not operate correctly because of one of the features of the US versions of Champion Inverter-generator (not an issue with Canadian models I was told). The US models output the correct voltage and frequency in pure sine wave form, but the Neutral and Ground are not bonded as one will find in normal US home electrical power systems (and at campground hookups). The PI EMS will not allow power to pass with an unbonded neutral, but there is a simple fix. An empty plug can be added with the Ground and Neutral wired internally with a jumper between Ground and Neutral and this plug can be inserted into the one of the standard outlets. The 30 Amp RV cable be used to link to the RV and the EMS will operate without fault. I discovered the issue when installing my EMS and solved it by hooking up to shore power versus the Generator and phone calls to both Progressive Industries and to Champion's technical support. I will run a full test tomorrow and post the results.

Hope this helps.
Update: These generators have unbonded Neutral and Ground; a "dummy" 120V plug with the ground and neutral wired together can be plugged into the generator 120V/20Amp outlet to bond these; a 30 Amp RV cable can then be connected to the RV and the EMS-HW30C works just fine.
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Old 05-05-2017, 11:56 AM   #22
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I've seen a few comments regarding the unbound Ground and Neutral on generator inverters being an issue if you are using the Progressive Industries EMS (its the same issue for Honda or Champion). Here's a link to a youtube video that explains it all. Mike Sokol is an electronics expert and in fact he designed the plug that Progressive Industries sells on their site (2nd link).

Testing and Bonding a Floating Neutral

Generator Bonded Neutral Plug
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Old 05-05-2017, 12:20 PM   #23
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hbillsmith, thanks for the added information and links. My plug looks very similar to the one by Sokol and took me less than ten minutes to make.
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Old 05-05-2017, 01:11 PM   #24
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if I use the bypass switch on my 50a EMS from progressive, will that work as well or will the generator still fault out?
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Old 05-05-2017, 02:41 PM   #25
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Mike Sokol is an electronics expert and in fact he designed the plug that Progressive Industries sells on their site (2nd link).

"Designed the plug" is a little exaggerated I think. Surprised they are advertising that.

People have been using 15 amp plugs that have the neutral and ground connected to each other for decades.
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Old 05-05-2017, 02:47 PM   #26
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Champion Inverter Generator Deal Alert

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Originally Posted by Mountndream View Post
if I use the bypass switch on my 50a EMS from progressive, will that work as well or will the generator still fault out?


The generator knows nothing about the EMS. The bypass in the EMS is for "turning on the power " (passing the power into the camper) even if the EMS sees a fault. If your EMS senses a problem, you can use the bypass to ignore the EMS and turn the power on anyway. Caution must be used. You want to make sure the condition the EMS is sensing is safe to ignore.

The bypass simply does what the normal operation does when no faults are found: it connects the input and output conductors. You will hear it "click" just like normal.

Keep in mind, when in bypass mode, the EMS can't protect you from problems.

If it is the neutral/ground bonding you are trying to get around, the neutral/ground bonding plug is the better choice. You can either buy one or make one.
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Old 06-05-2017, 09:39 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McRabbet View Post
KansasJohn's alert points to a really good deal for a good quality inverter generator for RVers. I bought one of the Dual Fuel 3400/3100 watt models (about $400 more) about 2 months ago and it runs like a champ (sorry for the poor pun)!. But, let me pass on a very important tip I learned from Champion's technical support department. I have also installed a 30 Amp Progressive Industries EMS (Model EMS-HW30-C) to safeguard against voltage fluctuations and surges -- but the EMS will not operate correctly because of one of the features of the US versions of Champion Inverter-generator (not an issue with Canadian models I was told). The US models output the correct voltage and frequency in pure sine wave form, but the Neutral and Ground are not bonded as one will find in normal US home electrical power systems (and at campground hookups). The PI EMS will not allow power to pass with an unbonded neutral, but there is a simple fix. An empty plug can be added with the Ground and Neutral wired internally with a jumper between Ground and Neutral and this plug can be inserted into the one of the standard outlets. The 30 Amp RV cable be used to link to the RV and the EMS will operate without fault. I discovered the issue when installing my EMS and solved it by hooking up to shore power versus the Generator and phone calls to both Progressive Industries and to Champion's technical support. I will run a full test tomorrow and post the results.

Hope this helps.
Ummm, yes and no. Most generators are this way. On shore/home power code require that ground/neutral be wired together but not for gennys. Regular generators are the same (my Champion 4000/3500) and the GN Plug is the solution.

HOWEVER, re-read the documentation on the PI Portable EMS at this link
Progressive Industries RV Surge and Electrical Protection industry lea

Select doc for your model and go to the warnings section. Very last item states "NEVER plug ems into and inverter". That includes an inverter generator.

If you do it and something goes wrong, make sure you never admit it or your lifetime warranty is history.
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Old 06-06-2017, 07:24 AM   #28
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Select doc for your model and go to the warnings section. Very last item states "NEVER plug ems into and inverter". That includes an inverter generator.

It says never plug into an inverter, not inverter generator.

In addition... remember that generator plug that bonds the ground and neutral? That plug is advertised on PI's website along with a video. They explain how it is necessary when plugging into a generator... and they use an inverter generator in the video for their example.
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Old 06-06-2017, 08:41 AM   #29
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It says never plug into an inverter, not inverter generator.

In addition... remember that generator plug that bonds the ground and neutral? That plug is advertised on PI's website along with a video. They explain how it is necessary when plugging into a generator... and they use an inverter generator in the video for their example.
That was my take on it too. They denied warranty. I used their video with the inverter generator as my argument as well. Still denied. According to the rep, an inverter is an inverter regardless of where the power originates. The GN Plug they sell is for standard generators they say.
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Old 06-06-2017, 10:43 AM   #30
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That was my take on it too. They denied warranty. I used their video with the inverter generator as my argument as well. Still denied. According to the rep, an inverter is an inverter regardless of where the power originates. The GN Plug they sell is for standard generators they say.


Something here doesn't pass the smell test. Progressive Industries sells a product that allows you to connect an inverter generator to their EMS. Here are a few points I took away from viewing their video just now:
Their EMS will shut down if an open neutral is detected
They created a product (plug) specifically for this problem
They created a video to demonstrate the the problem and how to use the plug
They use a Honda inverter generator in the video
They specifically mention using (said/spoke) an inverter generator, the plug and their EMS

I suspect there is more to the story.
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Old 06-06-2017, 11:28 AM   #31
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Interesting rationale for not using surge protection with MSW inverters (In this case APC Brand Uninterruptible Power Supplies, which output MSW waveform).

Using surge strips with APC's Back-UPS and Smart-UPS products.

Of course, this should not be relevant to PSW inverters/inverter gennys
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Old 06-06-2017, 12:26 PM   #32
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Something here doesn't pass the smell test.

I suspect there is more to the story.
There usually is when only hearing one side.
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