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Old 08-23-2014, 11:06 PM   #11
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I drive a Gas engine that has Turbos and rivals Diesel engines with Torque. I am at least 7 years from a new truck and I certainly hope a F350 has a turbo engine that rivals diesel alternative. According to my local dealer the cost to maintain a diesel is twice that of a gas engine. Once retired and using the truck for mostly towing gas looks like the best option if they get the power required.
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Old 08-23-2014, 11:24 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
USA, 'EPA' regs (caugh) have made the diesel engine into a clogged up mess. "muffler oil".... give me a break.....

Goes back to the same point of taking something very simple and efficient and turning it into a cost prohibitive product to steer you to mass produced junk.... add lobbyists of big manufacture and big government and it is the Speeple the gets fleeced day after day. There is no more fleece to give.....

Spot on.



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Old 08-24-2014, 10:38 AM   #13
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We bought 2 companies in UK a couple years ago. Fuel in UK is about 8 bucks a gallon. Europe demands higher MPG out of their cars because fuel cost is so high. A TDI car here gets 40-45mpg. The same exact vehicle in UK with same engine gets 55-65mpg. Different tune on engine and the engine stops when you stop. It magically starts back up immediately when you press on gas pedal to go again. Stop go traffic is very weird with stop/start engines. The UK version of a new TDI has no soot or diesel smell coming out of tailpipe. Same as USA.
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Old 08-24-2014, 10:44 AM   #14
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Gas engines today are more and more capable of rivaling diesel engines for fuel mileage and torque production. There is no real compelling reason to go diesel; with higher purchase and maintenance costs. And consumers don't want to get 1/2 block from home and have the motor stall due to gelled fuel in hard winter weather. Diesels take longer to warm up making them colder in winters. And diesel fuel costs approximately 10% more than gasoline.

There's no conspiracy here. For the most part, diesel cars don't make practical or economic sense in America at this time.
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Old 08-24-2014, 11:03 PM   #15
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I would have to respectfully disagree with you, AB...there is no 4 cylinder gas engine out there that comes close to the torque of my TDI while providing same the mileage. There are a few out there that have the torque, but return poorer mileage. Then there are 4 cylinder gas engines that come close to the mileage, but they're not fun to drive at all, and a TDI (or equivalent diesel) is--its a seat of your pants feeling that can't be rivaled with a 4-cylinder gas engine. Yes, the fuel cost is 10% higher. But if you and I fill up at the same time, you have a Toyota Yaris, 15 gal tank, and I have a Jetta TDI, 15 gal tank--it may cost me $60 to fill up and only cost you $45, but I go 600 miles before filling again, and you're filling up again in 350-400 miles. The math works in the diesel's favor. Have gasoline engine engineers cut the chasm between them? Yes, they're getting closer. But diesel is still more cost-effective, even with the more expensive fuel and maintenance costs. Add a bottle of anti-gel in the really cold weather (like single degrees and lower) and you resolve the gel problem. Then throw in the fact that they regularly go 300K miles (if you're inclined to hold onto it that long) and it's a win-win.
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Old 08-25-2014, 03:55 AM   #16
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I guess someone hasn't looked into it. Diesel sales are way up in the US, but they are still a fraction of gas sales.

Diesel Boom? Ownership Of Diesel Cars Way Up, But Still A Fraction Of U.S. Market - Forbes

There was also an article about this in this months Diesel Power Magazine.
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Old 08-25-2014, 07:04 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Taranwanderer View Post
I would have to respectfully disagree with you, AB...there is no 4 cylinder gas engine out there that comes close to the torque of my TDI while providing same the mileage. There are a few out there that have the torque, but return poorer mileage. Then there are 4 cylinder gas engines that come close to the mileage, but they're not fun to drive at all, and a TDI (or equivalent diesel) is--its a seat of your pants feeling that can't be rivaled with a 4-cylinder gas engine. Yes, the fuel cost is 10% higher. But if you and I fill up at the same time, you have a Toyota Yaris, 15 gal tank, and I have a Jetta TDI, 15 gal tank--it may cost me $60 to fill up and only cost you $45, but I go 600 miles before filling again, and you're filling up again in 350-400 miles. The math works in the diesel's favor. Have gasoline engine engineers cut the chasm between them? Yes, they're getting closer. But diesel is still more cost-effective, even with the more expensive fuel and maintenance costs. Add a bottle of anti-gel in the really cold weather (like single degrees and lower) and you resolve the gel problem. Then throw in the fact that they regularly go 300K miles (if you're inclined to hold onto it that long) and it's a win-win.
X2!
....and the truck turbo V6 torque only match the torque output of large V8 gas engines in the low 400ftlb torque range...they don't come close to the 800ftlbs and more of diesels
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Old 08-25-2014, 08:44 AM   #18
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When people state there is a higher maintenance cost for a diesel I will agree with that somewhat. But all that means is more frequent fuel filter changes, an extra 4 quarts of oil per oil change, and adding DEF. That is it. The rest is the same as a gasser. I do all my own maintenance so not a big deal. As far has the cost of the engine and trans itself. When you trade in your truck you will get over half of that extra cost back. You cant beat the gas mileage when towing and not, on the highway, for what the diesel truck can tow. No gas engine will meet the torque of a diesel. Also being able to pull in the truck bays at truck stops to refuel, while towing, is excellent. Fuel prices, yes diesel fuel is more expensive per gallon but I saw a 50% increase in mileage while towing , gas vs diesel, so per gallon diesel is cheaper. I did the math because my wife is a math major and I had to convince her it was worth it. My wife is even sold on diesel. As along as I am towing I will have a diesel.
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Old 08-25-2014, 10:06 AM   #19
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If you need a diesel to pull your camper, then you should consider one but for the casual camper who tows about 7500 lb about 6 times a year, a diesel may not be the right choice. My TT is about 7300 lbs loaded and 32.6ft long. We towed this trailer 4500 miles thru the Canadian Maritimes and 3500 miles around the great lakes with absolutely no problems. My 2005 F150 5.4L towed it perfectly. My 2011 5.0L was even more powerful and my 2014 ecoboost Max Tow beats them all. I get a new truck every three years, my choice, and we do not take long trips any more. Round trips usually are around 200 or 300 miles about 6 or 8 times a season. The F150 set up right is perfect for that kind of towing and for thousands less than a properly equipped diesel. Also, if someone tries to tell you that maintenance costs for a diesel are only a little more than for a gasser, they are clueless. In my career, I managed several fleets including a 2000 vehicle fleet for a large corporation. I also managed a 60 vehicle fleet of medical transportation vehicles. We were spending so much in maintenance for the diesels that we finally switched to V10's. More reliable and much less costly to repair. The older diesels prior to 2002 were great. The newer ones with all the pollution equipment really suck. Try purchasing an exhaust particulate filter for 1500.00 plus labor because it won't re-gen. How about the egr cooler that starts to leak internally for about a 2000.00 repair at about 100,000 miles. And then there are the injectors, ONLY 210.00 each that start plugging up. Did I mention the egr valve needing to be replaced for about a 400.00 bill. I will say that of the big three, the Cummins in the Dodge is less likely to have these kinds of problems. Our fleet was all Ford. The fleet my friend maintained was Chevy and he complained too. We did not have a fleet with Cummins to compare. Our Chairmobiles with the Ford gas V-6 or V8s had none of these problems and were usually retired at between 275,000 and 300,000 miles.

If you have something that requires the power of a big diesel, by all means, buy it. If you are the casual camper who has a small to medium size unit that can be towed by a 1/2 ton truck, Don't waste your money on a diesel. I have had awesome luck with my properly equipped F150's.
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Old 08-25-2014, 02:50 PM   #20
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The thing that held back diesels in the USA is the GM 350 diesel engine.

Lets dispel some rumors first...

The 350 diesel was not a "converted gas motor". It was designed from the ground up as a diesel engine. However, GM did design it so that they could use existing GM components on it. Alternator, water pumps, Intake manifolds, oil pans, and of course it had to bolt to a GM frame and transmission. From the outside appearance they looked a whole lot like a SBC (small block Chevy).

The 350 diesel had a nasty habit of having the whole bottom end fail. Crank and rods would suffer a come-apart, usually for no definable reason at all. The overall failure rate was relatively small, but like with the DC-10, and the Pinto, public perception was it was a time bomb just waiting to explode. People shied away from ANY diesel because they were all tarred with the same brush that the public used to vilify the 350 diesel.

Because of the reluctance of the public to buy diesels, gas station owners were reluctant to install tanks and dispensers for diesel fuel. That started an endless cycle. with fuel difficult to find, people shunned diesels. With a small number of diesels, fuel operators had no incentive to add diesel pumps.

GM tried again in the 90's with the 6.2 diesel in trucks. It was designed by Detroit Diesel and was a stunning motor, for a very specific application. It was not designed to be a torque monster. Just a high-efficiency option for pickup trucks. Dead simple and reliable as a hammer. They upgraded it to 6.5 liters and added a turbo. But in 1994, they added an electronically controlled injection pump made by stanadyne that had a fatal flaw in the electronics. The pump relied of fuel flow to cool a pair of high-power transitors, and they could not handle the heat-soak of a just turned off engine with all kinds of heat, but no fuel flow. Again the public soured on diesels. I had one, and let me tell you, a one-ton crew cab dually that just decides to shut the hell off whenever it pleases was a handful to keep from wrecking. I am totally surprised there was never a recall. Two high-profile diesel lemons back-to-back really got some attention, and GM was kicked in the teeth by the press.

Ford at the time was making their non-DI (Direct injection) engine, but very few people knew they even had one. Dodge had also been putting the Cummins series B engines in their truck since 89 but, agan to little notice.

To me, the diesel Renaissance began in the USA when Dodge re-designed their trucks in 1994. They were revolutionary and drop dead gorgeous. They sold a lot of them and they pushed the Cummins in their advertising. At the time the only engine that could hang with the Cummins was their fuel gobbling V-10. People who would have never given a diesel a second look now started clamoring for one. Ford came out with their International built 7.3 Powerstroke, and GM eventually teamed with Isuzu to make the Duramax. The Diesel horsepower war had really taken off.

Now back to the lowly 350 diesel... The sad thing was, it was a fantastically designed engine. The ONLY flaw was that GM decided (in a cost cutting move) to not include a water separator in the fuel system. What would happen is Grandpa in his Oldsmobile would be on a trip and have to get fuel at some low-volume dealer with leaky tanks, and get some water with his fuel. it happens. But without the water separator, at some point his engine would pick up water, sludge or debris. This would stick in the injection pump, causing an incorrect injection cycle. This would overstress head gaskets, causing coolant leaks that would eventually hydro-lock the engine. This would bend rods, sometimes rather severely. However, the engine would continue to run for some time, maybe even for weeks. All grandpa would feel would be a momentary shudder. But the engine was already mortally wounded. A few days or so later, the bent rod would let go and trash the entire bottom end. Granpa would say it was running fine and just blew up, so it had to be a bad design.

I would love to find a decent old Buick or Olds with the 350 diesel in it. I'd buy it in a heartbeat. There are still many out chugging along sweetly, after people started putting water separators on them.

Tim
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