Real Gas vs. Ethanol Gas Question

[jimh]

Originally Posted by baldy

Ever seen the by-products of bio-diesel production. Explain where the green is?

I buy what's cheapest and drive. I might be able to save a couple hundred a year I guess but my DW would just spend it on something I would have to move or clean or ....!! LOL!!

Biodiesel will give u better milage. Ethanol wont but I doubt some of the claims abt how much (ethanol).
The real green comes in the form of a 50 cent/gal subsidy and no road tax.

[MtnGuy]

Originally Posted by jrennich

1st - EPA has approved the use of E15 in all vehicles 2001 or newer.

Our 2004 Honda Accord manual states: “You may use gasoline (gasohol) with a mix of up to 10% ethanol by volume”. Strange that the EPA in their infinite wisdom can circumvent the manufacturers knowledge of their own vehicles.

Strangely enough, I can find nothing about the ethanol limits on my 2006 F150. I contribute that to the fact that Ford offered the “Flex Fuel Engine” for the 1st time that year. To prevent having to print 2 separate instruction manuals, I figured they just let that ride. I will avoid putting E15 into any of my vehicles until the sad day that I can’t find anything else.

The EPA had initially used 2007 and newer vehicles in their waiver, which was done in Oct. 2010. The waiver dating vehicles back to 2001 was issued in Jan 2011.

Originally Posted by jrennich

2nd - The Oil Companies don't produce Ethanol. The subsidy is called a Blenders Credit, which typically does go to Big Oil since they are usually the blender.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by jrennich

3rd - If you compare the BTU in 100% gas (114,000) to E10 (111,836) it is a drop of just less than 2%. With that little decrease in BTU, yes you will see a small drop in MPG but no where near the 15% you claim. So if you work out the fact you are only loosing 2% mileage but replacing 10% of foreign oil, yes you are dropping your reliance on foreign oil.

I used the 15% as an arbitrary figure….I do not have any proof on that. Many websites that I have visited have listed a 25-30% loss of fuel mileage using E85, but of course E10 would be considerable less loss.

Originally Posted by jrennich

4th - Everybody talks about the fact that you need these big tractors to plant the corn and the semis to haul it to the plant and the energy to convert it so it is not a green fuel. You must also assume that the gasoline you use just automatically makes it way from below the surface, then refines itself and then floats its way into your local gas stations tanks! Don't know why people think this is a valid arguement.

Good points !!

I have found references on the web that indicate through more efficient methods, ethanol produces now produces 35% more energy than it takes to produce.

I can’t seem to readily find results for gasoline.

Originally Posted by jrennich

5th - Corn prices have stayed almost the same since the late 70's, with a few flucuations due to the market. Now during that time there is no way in H*LL that the cost to the farmer remained the same. With the cost of corn going up it has actually allowed the farmers to make money and has actually lowered the amount of subsidies for farmers.

Corn futures are running in the low $7s per bushel now. 10 years ago, futures were in the $2.50 range.

Originally Posted by jrennich

6th - Why does nobody mention the subsidy that Big Oil gets. They get roughly $2-3 billion a year from the government even when they are pulling in multi-billion dollar profits per quarter. Does not sound smart but when they go in front of congress to justify it, the powers to be still feel it is a smart money move for the taxpayer.

I agree that government should not be subsidizing the oil companies……including giving the $6 billion per year to blend ethanol.

Originally Posted by jrennich

7th - Let me know of an ethanol spill that has killed wildlife and will have an adverse affect on local economies for years to come. Seems as though everybody forgets about the major spills from tankers, rigs, etc.

I have not heard of any adverse ecological effects of ethanol spills. If there were, the drinking public would be quick to help with the cleanup.

[yvesm]

Originally Posted by mtnguy

Do any members here burn 100% gasoline instead of the crappy 10% ethanol blend that the Feds and gas companies push on us ???

My daughter has been a big fan of pure gasoline for years. She said she gets better gas mileage with her vehicles. I broke down and paid the couple of extra pennies to put real gas in my truck a couple of days ago, and my Scan Gauge II is already showing a big improvement with mileage. And I still have approximately 2.5% ethanol in my tank, since I was at 1/4 tank when I filled with the pure gasoline.

My problem is that there are no pure gasoline stations in the Charlottesville area.

And now the EPA is raising the maximum mix to 15%, but there are some lawsuits holding up that ruling, since most pre 2007 vehicles are not made for that percentage......my truck included.

Here is a website that lists non-ethanol gasoline: Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

Gas mileage drops down a lot with ethanol. Ethanol does not have as much energy density as gasoline does. So the more ethanol the worst the gas mileage!!

[jimh]

we also import ethanol complete with a 50 cent tariff.
it would be good to remove all subsidies from oil and ethanol but triple the tariff on imported ethanol to keep the field somewhat level. also keep the 10% mandate in place so that the ethanol industry doesn't fail.
unfortunately, there have been fish kills with ethanol. there have also been some happy fish on the fringe. it's hard to compare a 3k gal spill to a 100000bbl spill.
cost of production? the oil industry makes a profit. a refinery will typically make abt 5 cents on a gal of gasoline. refining is also feast or famine. that would be a good comparison with the ethanol industry. both buy their feed stock and sell a finished product. does not take into the drilling or growing. transportation is factored into feed and product cost.
best argument i heard is that we are taking from our food supply. that will change one day. there is a lot of experimenting with using alternate sources. that's been going on for years. one day it will happen.
that corn price rise referred to resulted in corn staying in a big hill here (abt 3 yrs ago). it took over a year for that to disappear. looks like ethanol manufactures still have to make money to survive.
if u remove the subsidy, would u suspect prices to rise or ur taxes to go down? "the rich" by definition is anyone with a job.

[DF5.4]

Does anyone know if Shell uses ethanol on their gas? I used it when we went to Ohio. The trip home I got 1.5 mpg better than usual. I was using the v-power premium with the tow tune from the Superchips Cortex.

[SaskCampers]

This is an interesting thread. While we went on our vacation throungh MT, Wy, SD and ND pretty much every station we stopped at had 85 octane non blend for more than the 87 octane which was 10% blend and then the higher octane non blends. There we some strange octane numbers as well, some places mid grade was 88 but high was 91. Here we have 87,89 and 91 and if you go to Mohawk you can get 89,91 and 94 but they are all blended. Vs the standard 87,89 and 91 at all othere stations. It is noted on pumps that have up to 10% blend. I used to run blended in our 04 hemi but only use full gas in the 08 (getting a 4 or 5 hundred dollar check back at the end of the year as a COOP member also sways the vote) and did so stateside as well. It is a bit different for us as we drill out our own oil and have a refinery not from here as well.

[DF5.4]

I didn't see anything about ethanol on the pumps at the Shell stations.

[SaskCampers]

We only stopped at Conoco, Exxon and one Flying J. as they were always the ones along the highways and had good access for trucks with good sized trailers. I never shop for prices, when we need fuel I stop when I see one with good access.

[MtnGuy]

Originally Posted by DF5.4

Does anyone know if Shell uses ethanol on their gas? I used it when we went to Ohio. The trip home I got 1.5 mpg better than usual. I was using the v-power premium with the tow tune from the Superchips Cortex.

I have read where premium gas will give you slightly better gas mileage than regular during towing. I don't have a lot to compare to, but the few times that I could remember to use premium while towing, I think the mileage was better. Does it counter the extra cost...don't know, but it gives me a little comfort to know that I am getting ~11 mpg instead of ~10.5 mpg.

I am pretty sure the Shell stations around here use E10 gas.

[SaskCampers]

Chap,

Some vehicles do get better mileage towing running higher octane, we use mid grade 89 if we can get or high if not. The reason is simply the higher octane keeps the engine from detonating under load and which causes the computer to richen the mixture and pull timing out so you get less power and more fuel burnt.

[MtnGuy]

Originally Posted by TheSasks

Chap,

Some vehicles do get better mileage towing running higher octane, we use mid grade 89 if we can get or high if not. The reason is simply the higher octane keeps the engine from detonating under load and which causes the computer to richen the mixture and pull timing out so you get less power and more fuel burnt.

Makes sense.

[jimh]

Originally Posted by TheSasks

Chap,

Some vehicles do get better mileage towing running higher octane, we use mid grade 89 if we can get or high if not. The reason is simply the higher octane keeps the engine from detonating under load and which causes the computer to richen the mixture and pull timing out so you get less power and more fuel burnt.

that's it. octane rating is a ping measurement. in the very old days, they put lead in to smooth out the explosion. not sure what ethanol will do. it is interesting on how some additives will increase octane in small amts but go the other way in larger amts.

[DF5.4]

I'm also using the Superchips tuner. The tow program is tuned to run at least 91 octane. I always use that when I tow and I still got better MPG.

[SaskCampers]

Originally Posted by DF5.4

I'm also using the Superchips tuner. The tow program is tuned to run at least 91 octane. I always use that when I tow and I still got better MPG.

I would expect you would. So at the very least their programmer seems to work as advertised for you. I have been mulling over getting one for our truck but have not seen anything too conclusive to say it was worth it for a daily driver/TV.