Real Gas vs. Ethanol Gas Question

[MtnGuy]

Do any members here burn 100% gasoline instead of the crappy 10% ethanol blend that the Feds and gas companies push on us ???

My daughter has been a big fan of pure gasoline for years. She said she gets better gas mileage with her vehicles. I broke down and paid the couple of extra pennies to put real gas in my truck a couple of days ago, and my Scan Gauge II is already showing a big improvement with mileage. And I still have approximately 2.5% ethanol in my tank, since I was at 1/4 tank when I filled with the pure gasoline.

My problem is that there are no pure gasoline stations in the Charlottesville area.

And now the EPA is raising the maximum mix to 15%, but there are some lawsuits holding up that ruling, since most pre 2007 vehicles are not made for that percentage......my truck included.

Here is a website that lists non-ethanol gasoline: Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

[BigDTx]

Great link, but when I checked they do not list one station in Houston or surrounding towns that sell pure gas, I will keep this in the glovebox for future road trips.

Is this anothr big oil conspiracy, charge us more and sell us less gas w/ 10-15% Ethanol!

[MtnGuy]

The U.S. government gives the oil companies $6 billion per year in subsidies to produce ethanol gasoline. I understand their reasoning behind that, but it just does not work. The idea that is reduces our reliance of foreign oil is a crock. If I use 10% ethanol gas, but it gives me 15% worse gas mileage, guess what.......I am burning more foreign oil when using a gasoline ethanol blend. Top that off with the extra gas used by the tractors to plant and harvest the corn, as well as the energy to convert corn to ethanol, and we are actually helping OPEC with sale their wares.

I understand helping our corn farmers, but the rise in corn prices has hurt other farmers who rely on corn feed for their livestock. The system is just not working.

On the positive side of this, there is a movement in congress to get rid of these silly subsidies.

I will now step off of my soapbox, and buy pure gasoline whenever possible.

[wnytaxman]

Early on, when ethanol first came into play we were driving our Coachman gasser through Wyoming. I tracked my mileage between the ethanol gas and the non-ethanol gas. My mileage was 25% worse with the ethanol. Let's hope that Washington can get the idea that this whole ethanol scam is just plain dumb.

[cfsoistman]

Originally Posted by mtnguy

The U.S. government gives the oil companies $6 billion per year in subsidies to produce ethanol gasoline.

On the positive side of this, there is a movement in congress to get rid of these silly subsidies.

I will now step off of my soapbox, and buy pure gasoline whenever possible.

Those silly subsidies will go away when Congress doesn't receive any re-election monies from those Oil Companies. Don't hold your breath. One crook's hand feeds the other crooks hand unfortunately.

[jrennich]

Originally Posted by mtnguy

The U.S. government gives the oil companies $6 billion per year in subsidies to produce ethanol gasoline. I understand their reasoning behind that, but it just does not work. The idea that is reduces our reliance of foreign oil is a crock. If I use 10% ethanol gas, but it gives me 15% worse gas mileage, guess what.......I am burning more foreign oil when using a gasoline ethanol blend. Top that off with the extra gas used by the tractors to plant and harvest the corn, as well as the energy to convert corn to ethanol, and we are actually helping OPEC with sale their wares.

I understand helping our corn farmers, but the rise in corn prices has hurt other farmers who rely on corn feed for their livestock. The system is just not working.

On the positive side of this, there is a movement in congress to get rid of these silly subsidies.

I will now step off of my soapbox, and buy pure gasoline whenever possible.

Just to give you a little background before I reply to your email. I am from South Dakota. Have lived here my entire life. I do work for an ethanol company but took this job because I do believe in the use of ethanol and the process. I think it is hilarious when people bash a product that they know nothing about. Every form of energy in this country is subsidized. This in turn allows the government to really control the market for them. The company I work for has been proposing to get rid of the subsidy over a span of 5 years. During that time the cost would help build infrastructure such as pipeline, more blender pumps, more flex fuel vehicles, etc. This in turn would allow it to compete with oil. Every time we build a plant it brings life back to the rural areas and allows those people an opportunity to make a living.

1st - EPA has approved the use of E15 in all vehicles 2001 or newer. So yes your 2007 does run on it. Did you know that Henry Ford first car called the Quadrycylce was designed to run on pure ethanol along with his 1908 Model T?

2nd - The Oil Companies don't produce Ethanol. The subsidy is called a Blenders Credit, which typically does go to Big Oil since they are usually the blender.

3rd - If you compare the BTU in 100% gas (114,000) to E10 (111,836) it is a drop of just less than 2%. With that little decrease in BTU, yes you will see a small drop in MPG but no where near the 15% you claim. So if you work out the fact you are only loosing 2% mileage but replacing 10% of foreign oil, yes you are dropping your reliance on foreign oil.

4th - Everybody talks about the fact that you need these big tractors to plant the corn and the semis to haul it to the plant and the energy to convert it so it is not a green fuel. You must also assume that the gasoline you use just automatically makes it way from below the surface, then refines itself and then floats its way into your local gas stations tanks! Don't know why people think this is a valid arguement.

5th - Corn prices have stayed almost the same since the late 70's, with a few flucuations due to the market. Now during that time there is no way in H*LL that the cost to the farmer remained the same. With the cost of corn going up it has actually allowed the farmers to make money and has actually lowered the amount of subsidies for farmers.

6th - Why does nobody mention the subsidy that Big Oil gets. They get roughly $2-3 billion a year from the government even when they are pulling in multi-billion dollar profits per quarter. Does not sound smart but when they go in front of congress to justify it, the powers to be still feel it is a smart money move for the taxpayer.

7th - Let me know of an ethanol spill that has killed wildlife and will have an adverse affect on local economies for years to come. Seems as though everybody forgets about the major spills from tankers, rigs, etc.

Hope this clears up a few misconceptions.

[acadianbob]

Ethanol blends are a mistake and 15% is an even bigger mistake. It takes way to much water during production too. Anyway, politics aside, pure gasoline definitely get you better gas mileage; but not necessarily more power. Ethanol subsidies may get eliminated soon due to the fiscal crisis.

In MN, the pure gasoline pumps (few and far between) clearly state that it is only for small engines, antique cars, etc and not to be used in modern motory vehicles.

Moderators, if this is too political, I understand and you may delete.

[dc31bhss]

Those tractors use diesel. Bio-diesel is the only true "green fuel". Ethanol is only good in a mason jar around a campfire! (is this too political or offensive?)

[MtnGuy]

Originally Posted by acadianbob

In MN, the pure gasoline pumps (few and far between) clearly state that it is only for small engines, antique cars, etc and not to be used in modern motory vehicles.

Interesting. Virginia pumps do not have that. The pumps are just listed as "No Ethanol".

Originally Posted by acadianbob

Moderators, if this is too political, I understand and you may delete.

This whole discussion was started by a moderator......me. If individual posts get out of line, then we can go from there. I am not above closing my own thread if need be, or if other moderators or the administrator sees fit....not a problem.

jrennrich, you give an interesting perspective with your comments. I will do a little research and hopefully have an educated response in a day or 2.

My intention with this thread was not to start a war, but see if others noticed a difference in mileage between regular gasoline and E10 (or E15) gasoline. My limited observation so far is not scientific by a long shot, and I may not be able to compare even over the long run, since it is not practical to drive 80 miles round trip to fill up with gasoline every time I fill my truck. But while doing regular errands in the area of a pure gasoline station, I do intend to take advantage of that when the opportunity presents itself.

[jrennich]

I don't mean to start a war either.......just wanted to get a few facts out there. Corn ethanol might not be the final answer to energy independence but it is a start and without it I can only imagine what the cost of gas would be. Most people don't realize that without ethanol you have only 1 option. Big Oil realizes this and that is why they want ethanol out of the picture. You create a market tha revolves around 1 source and the end consumer is going to get a raw deal when it comes to cost.

[wayne anthony]

I haven't noticed enough difference between straight gasoline and 10% to pay much attention. Haven't run into E-15 yet. I just presume I get less with E-10. but I would doubt if it would be more than a 5% drop. However, a friend of mine with a wrecking yard, said E-10 was very good for thier business when there were more older cars around. Wayne

[baldy]

Ever seen the by-products of bio-diesel production. Explain where the green is?

I buy what's cheapest and drive. I might be able to save a couple hundred a year I guess but my DW would just spend it on something I would have to move or clean or ....!! LOL!!

[acadianbob]

The flex fuel F150s here in MN are getting about 11 mpg on E-85 where they get about 16 on 10% ethanol. MN gets real cold in the winter. Many experience real cold starting issues once it gets below zero on E-85. The postal service here runs E85 in some locations but has to switch away in the winter because the vehicles will otherwise not start. Also, the ethanol in the fuel attracts water and causes issues in the winter.

I realize this is a slightly different discussion than the OP started. But it points out degradation of MPG and other associated issues. So how much ethanol is too much?

[F and E Damp]

By volume, ethanol has a lower energy rating. If you buy by the gallon, I think the ethanol mileage is about 25% less than gas. If you have 10% ethanol, your gas mileage will drop by about 8% (I think). It's getting more difficult to find stations without ethanol these days, and the Feds are proposing ain increase to 15 percent.

[Ovair]

Yes, I noticed a reduction in MPG when using ethanol laden fuel. On my bike I also noticed a performance reduction. There are only a couple of stations where I live that sell "plain jane" gasoline. I prefer to use the plain stuff.
I also noticed there are a lot of carbonated beverages that have gone back to using sugar instead of corn syrup or high fructose corn syrup. Its all about the Benjamins.

[JoeR]

Oh yeah, I notice the difference in both mileage and power right away. Towing with pure dino, 10mpg. With the veggie blend, 8.5mpg. And more down shifts to make the same hills with the veggies stuff.

I'll pay more to get better mileage and horsepower towing anyday.

JR

[papap]

My big problem with ethanol. Is read your outboard motor warranty. If you use the 15% blend, you have no warranty. Makes me wonder about our gen sets.

[MtnGuy]

Originally Posted by acadianbob

Also, the ethanol in the fuel attracts water and causes issues in the winter.

Bob, we don't have the winters here that you do, but I think using E10 gas in the winter here might be good thing. I don't hear about auto gas lines freezing up like I used to, and I personally have not had my auto gas line freeze since the E10 gasoline came out. Of course, maybe that is because the storage tanks at gas stations are better installed so that water does not get in them now, but a little alcohol in the gas is a good thing to prevent freezing.

Before E10, if you got gas from a contaminated tank, the water would settle out again in the car gas tank, going to the and getting in the bottom and the exposed gas line to the engine.....frozen line. Get under your car in 0° weather with a hair dryer to thaw out the line. The solution to that was to dump a can of gas line antifreeze down the tube every fill up. Gas line antifreeze is isopropanol or methanol. Alcohol bonds with water, and also readily mixes with gasoline, putting the water particles in suspension to be gradually burned by the engine. I would think that ethanol would serve the same pupose. I don't know why gas line antifreeze would not be ethanol, except the local wine-o's would be lined up at the parts store.

Now using E85 would be a different matter in extremely cold weather, as engines need every ounce of power available to start, and E85 probably does not have available BTUs.

[acadianbob]

You are right about the freezing Chap. The problem isn't freezing. It is accumulation of water which can result in hard starting and misfiring. Imagine pouring some water in your gas in the summer time. Your motor wouldn't like it. This is especially true for motors that sit a lot and are run for shorter periods of time. Examples: Tractor, generator, pressure washer, etc. I put Stabil in my gas for this type of equipment year around.

[jimh]

Originally Posted by Danielflading

Great link, but when I checked they do not list one station in Houston or surrounding towns that sell pure gas, I will keep this in the glovebox for future road trips.

Is this anothr big oil conspiracy, charge us more and sell us less gas w/ 10-15% Ethanol!

Not big oil. They r against it. Big gov.