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Old 04-04-2019, 09:23 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by TheWolfPaq82 View Post
I do a lot of 120v braided wire work. Deuce is right. If the proper tool is used, those caps can be very solid and work great. If you're using nothing but a pair of pliers or needle nose, then they are not going to hold like they should. I lost all my 120v outlets in our trailer the first season. A neutral wire fell out of one of those and had to be tracked down in the trailer.

Key word highlighted. RVs are wired with Romex(the 120V wiring)- solid wire, not braided. Some components have braided wire internally, but still have to be connected to the Romex. Only time I'd use a crimp cap is if all wires were stranded. But you are correct about using the correct tool. Crimp caps won't stay secure even on braided wire if you don't use an actual crimp tool. Amazing how many people think you can just squeeze them with pliers.
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Old 04-04-2019, 09:41 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Witch Doctor View Post
First the crimp caps are not the problem in themselves, I say that if they are crimped correctly and they use the right size. Second yes they are aluminum, but please show me a wire nut that the inside is not? Same as you have to use the correct size wire nut. The problem comes in when on the production line they carry 1 size in there pocket and just use that on everything. To say that will create a fire is questionable. Geez show me a breaker that doesnt have a aluminum screw to attach a wire.
The 3M wire nuts in my parts bin have steel in their business ends with a coil insert.
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Old 04-04-2019, 09:49 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by dustman_stx View Post
Key word highlighted. RVs are wired with Romex(the 120V wiring)- solid wire, not braided. Some components have braided wire internally, but still have to be connected to the Romex. Only time I'd use a crimp cap is if all wires were stranded. But you are correct about using the correct tool. Crimp caps won't stay secure even on braided wire if you don't use an actual crimp tool. Amazing how many people think you can just squeeze them with pliers.
Should've added that we also do solid to strand which works very well, but like you said...those crimps perform best on stranded wire and twist nuts would be the ideal part for connecting solid to solid.
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Old 04-04-2019, 10:02 AM   #24
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One of the popular crimp on tools used in the electrical trade. High leverage Thomas & Betts Stak-On pliers.
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Old 04-04-2019, 10:17 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by CHICKDOE View Post
the goo for joining aluminum to copper wire is called 'no-ox' and is available at nearly every hardware store. there may be other brands. our california house was wired with aluminum wire that was brittle and broke at the receptacles. i put copper pig tails onto every aluminum switch and receptacle cable and used no-ox with twist connectors. i do not know if it is required for a pure aluminum to aluminum connection.
Did you use wirenuts rated for CU/AL?

NO-ox is not for joining cu to al. There are special connectors designed for such a connection and must be rated for cu-al connection, Cu and Al expand and contract at different temps and will loosen a connection if not rated for use by the NEC. No-Ox stands for No Oxidation. It also is not required for use by the NEC. Wire nuts and breakers are an alloy connection. Not aluminum.
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Old 04-04-2019, 10:24 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by CHICKDOE View Post
the goo for joining aluminum to copper wire is called 'no-ox' and is available at nearly every hardware store. there may be other brands. our california house was wired with aluminum wire that was brittle and broke at the receptacles. i put copper pig tails onto every aluminum switch and receptacle cable and used no-ox with twist connectors. i do not know if it is required for a pure aluminum to aluminum connection.
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Did you use wirenuts rated for CU/AL?

NO-ox is not for joining cu to al. There are special connectors designed for such a connection and must be rated for cu-al connection, Cu and Al expand and contract at different temps and will loosen a connection if not rated for use by the NEC. No-Ox stands for No Oxidation. It also is not required for use by the NEC. Wire nuts and breakers are an alloy connection. Not aluminum.
For the sake of correctness.. it is actually called Noalox™ manufactured by Ideal®
It IS designed to join AL and CU.



There is a compound called NO-OX-ID.
It is more of a dielectric grease.
Perhaps that is what some of you are referring to?
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Old 04-04-2019, 12:05 PM   #27
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These manufactor can end all this if they took the time to twist the Romex and then put the cap on and crimp it correctly. But that take mins. So let's just put to ends in and crimp it badly. I think the caps are just a insulator like wrapping tape on a connection. A wire nut twists the 2 end together not like a insulating CAP.
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Old 04-04-2019, 12:20 PM   #28
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These manufactor can end all this if they took the time to twist the Romex and then put the cap on and crimp it correctly. But that take mins. So let's just put to ends in and crimp it badly. I think the caps are just a insulator like wrapping tape on a connection. A wire nut twists the 2 end together not like a insulating CAP.

Your post points out another issue- solid 12ga. isn't easy to twist together. If you just cap it without twisting the wires together, not only does the crimp cap not embed securely, you also have potentially little to no direct wire to wire contact- the current might have to actually pass thru the crimp ring itself. Not sure why anyone would want to deal with trying to twist solid wire together and then cap it when you can use a wire nut and it twists the wires as you install it.
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Old 04-04-2019, 12:39 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by dustman_stx View Post
Your post points out another issue- solid 12ga. isn't easy to twist together. If you just cap it without twisting the wires together, not only does the crimp cap not embed securely, you also have potentially little to no direct wire to wire contact- the current might have to actually pass thru the crimp ring itself. Not sure why anyone would want to deal with trying to twist solid wire together and then cap it when you can use a wire nut and it twists the wires as you install it.
Yes I agree, that's why a good electrician uses plyers to make the twist, I have even twisted 8ga solid strain together. Time is money Quota vs Quality. There's a connector for every application, I prefer wire nuts myself. Or even butt connections, but the RV industry is in there own world, we all know this. Hope everyone has a great day and safe season...
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Old 04-04-2019, 02:04 PM   #30
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Detailed electrical requirements in RVs is covered in article 551 of the NEC. article 551 also covers electrical requirements in RV parks. Here is a free older edition of the NEC http://mfranzen.ca/docs/gen/nec-1999.pdf NFPA 1192 covers life safety, fire protection, propane & plumbing.

120 volt splices are almost always required to be in an accessible outlet/junction box or other approved enclosure. Not the case with 12 volt DC wiring.

I have never ever seen one of those closed end crimp connectors used anywhere
on 120 volt AC wiring and am not so sure they're NEC approved or UL/CSA listed for that purpose.

The problem with the NEC & RVs is that no authority having jurisdiction ever inspects RVs at the various factories. If you happen to find electrical issues, there is no electrical inspector you can contact for an inspection. RV manufacturers get away with substandard workmanship and in some cases, code violations. I've lost track of all the code & workmanship issues I've found in 3 TTs so far.
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Old 04-04-2019, 02:09 PM   #31
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Detailed electrical requirements in RVs is covered in article 551 of the NEC. article 551 also covers electrical requirements in RV parks. Here is a free older edition of the NEC http://mfranzen.ca/docs/gen/nec-1999.pdf NFPA 1192 covers life safety, fire protection, propane & plumbing.

120 volt splices are almost always required to be in an accessible outlet/junction box or other approved enclosure. Not the case with 12 volt DC wiring.

I have never ever seen one of those closed end crimp connectors used on 120 volt AC wiring and am not so sure they're NEC approved or UL/CSA listed for that purpose.

The problem with the NEC & RVs is that no authority having jurisdiction ever inspects RVs at the various factories. If you happen to find electrical issues, there is no electrical inspector you can contact for an inspection. RV manufacturers get away with substandard workmanship and in some cases, code violations. I've lost track of all the code & workmanship issues I've found in 3 TTs so far.
I found one on my 2018 that did become a "Recall" thru FR. they were double tapping neutrals on the bar...which some electricians will do, but the problem was they were double tapping two different gauge wires. In my case it was a 12 and 14 on the same neutral lug. I removed the 14 and paired with another 14 on the bar.
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Old 04-04-2019, 02:17 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by myredracer View Post
Detailed electrical requirements in RVs is covered in article 551 of the NEC. article 551 also covers electrical requirements in RV parks. Here is a free older edition of the NEC http://mfranzen.ca/docs/gen/nec-1999.pdf NFPA 1192 covers life safety, fire protection, propane & plumbing.

120 volt splices are almost always required to be in an accessible outlet/junction box or other approved enclosure. Not the case with 12 volt DC wiring.

I have never ever seen one of those closed end crimp connectors used anywhere
on 120 volt AC wiring and am not so sure they're NEC approved or UL/CSA listed for that purpose.

The problem with the NEC & RVs is that no authority having jurisdiction ever inspects RVs at the various factories. If you happen to find electrical issues, there is no electrical inspector you can contact for an inspection. RV manufacturers get away with substandard workmanship and in some cases, code violations. I've lost track of all the code & workmanship issues I've found in 3 TTs so far.

All good info. For some reason, I am thinking I have seen crimp caps used on internal 120V connections within a component (such as inside light fixtures, ceiling fans, etc.) where only stranded wire was used, but I wouldn't swear to it.
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Old 04-04-2019, 03:16 PM   #33
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Here is a four point Ideal-Crimping tool, or in the electrical trade known as a Buchanan Tool. Also the finished crimp before placing the insulated connector on.
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Old 04-04-2019, 04:59 PM   #34
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well, you have such an attitude for such a simple problem, which may have nothing to do with the installation at the factory, once all the facts are in. The water heater is manufactured somewhere else, usually Atwood, Dometic, etc., not built by 'your' factory.
If the installation of a wire 'nut' or wire 'connector' is the issue, the unit would simply lose power, and not present any other problem.

If the problem lies within the water heater itself, then you can call them and complain, but FR and other manufacturers have no control over that.

Also, as far as whether nut connectors or crimp connectors are aluminum, or copper, or any other metal really doesn't matter - the touching of the two wires is the only part that does.
With respect, I don't think my opinion, formed by what the engineer told me is 'such an attitude'. I believe I have an absolute right to be disappointed at poor or shoddy workmanship. I didn't say that the problem arose from the poor quality crimp connector, that was something that was found whilst they looked for the problem. It had fallen off the copper wires it was supposed to be connecting. I've always thought that two dissimilar metals in connection is a recipe for a problem; I still do. I didn't say that the water heater was the cause of the problem, I said that the the trip switch kept tripping and that's why it was in for repair. I've been informed today that they've found the problem; a wire on a block connector had been stripped of its insulation back for about three inches, leaving about two and a half exposed. It seems that with movement of the trailer over time, the wire had moved and made contact with another wire, causing a short. I don't think it's 'bad attitude' to consider that to be inexcusably bad workmanship, and downright dangerous considering the voltage. Thank you everyone for your constructive replies. Much appreciated.
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Old 04-05-2019, 07:44 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Jayhawker View Post
Here is a four point Ideal-Crimping tool, or in the electrical trade known as a Buchanan Tool. Also the finished crimp before placing the insulated connector on.

I'll admit that I've never seen that tool or crimp connector. I don't think you'll ever encounter one in an RV, and I've never seen one used in any residential or commercial wiring- and I've seen a good bit. Where would one encounter those being commonly used?
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Old 04-05-2019, 08:56 AM   #36
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All the 12 volt wires in the lights I changed out had those connectors including for the ceiling fan connections.
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:07 AM   #37
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All the 12 volt wires in the lights I changed out had those connectors including for the ceiling fan connections.

I am 99.99% sure you are mistaken. Having worked in 12V electronics for many years, I have always seen standard crimp caps with a standard crimp tool used. Never have I encountered a 4 point crimp like Jayhawker showed.


Edit: Go back and look at the original post. That's what you saw on your 12V connections. And the tool commonly used for that has a single point, not 4. But, like we've already discussed, some people think you can simply squeeze them with pliers- this results in a compromised crimp that will often come loose.
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:15 AM   #38
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These are the most common crimp tools used for standard crimp caps:
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:18 AM   #39
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You'll see these a lot, but I don't like them because they don't have a point. FYI, these same tools are used for butt connectors. Just make sure you have the point opposite the seam to ensure a good seat.
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:20 AM   #40
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I have one that is nothing like them. It is a ratcheting type and can't be released till it is crimped correctly.
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