Tongue Weight question

[Bilcin]

I have participated in a few tongue weight topics about how to determine tongue weight. I am familiar with the 3 weights needed to get the tongue weight. My 2005 F150 can support 990lbs of tongue weight with a weight distributing hitch. If I buy a travel trailer, load it with what I need for my trip, can't I simply take my trailer to a truck scale and simply unhook my trailer putting the tongue jack on the scale? Now, would weight result be the tongue weight? What does weighing the truck and trailer hooked but no spring bars, then with spring bars and then the truck separately? If I simply wanted the tongue weight, wouldn't weighing the tongue jack give the most accurate weight?
Thank you.

[NJKris]

Sounds right to me. I imagine weight on tongue jack will be just slightly less than on actual tongue, being that the jack is not right at hitch ball receiver. Probably negligible on such a short tongue. WDH should transfer some weight from tongue/rear axle to front axle of tow vehicle. Still have to abide by tongue weight limits stated by tow vehicle mfr, and remember that WDH system adds to total tongue weight. Depending on WDH, that could add up to 100 lbs to total tongue weight.

[Bilcin]

Originally Posted by NJKris

Sounds right to me. I imagine weight on tongue jack will be just slightly less than on actual tongue, being that the jack is not right at hitch ball receiver. Probably negligible on such a short tongue. WDH should transfer some weight from tongue/rear axle to front axle of tow vehicle. Still have to abide by tongue weight limits stated by tow vehicle mfr, and remember that WDH system adds to total tongue weight. Depending on WDH, that could add up to 100 lbs to total tongue weight.

Yes, I should have clarified that the tongue jack location would not be 100%accurate, but very close to the actual tongue weight.
Thanks for your reply!

[phillyg]

Originally Posted by Bilcin

I have participated in a few tongue weight topics about how to determine tongue weight. I am familiar with the 3 weights needed to get the tongue weight. My 2005 F150 can support 990lbs of tongue weight with a weight distributing hitch. If I buy a travel trailer, load it with what I need for my trip, can't I simply take my trailer to a truck scale and simply unhook my trailer putting the tongue jack on the scale? Now, would weight result be the tongue weight? What does weighing the truck and trailer hooked but no spring bars, then with spring bars and then the truck separately? If I simply wanted the tongue weight, wouldn't weighing the tongue jack give the most accurate weight?
Thank you.

Yes, measuring just the tongue on a scale would give you actual weight. I'd want to know that, too. If your tongue weighs more than 1000lbs, the only way to ensure you won't be overloaded for travel is to hook up the WDH and reweigh the tongue to ensure you're under 1000lbs.

[Blackrock]

I got the pin weight on my 5th wheel by unhitching my trailer just short of the scale deck and then used a forklift to lift the trailer slightly at the pin. Subtracting the weight of the forklift gave me the true pin weight. Then pull the trailer forward for full weight and then again with the just the trailer axles on the scale and the pin supported by the forklift.
There wasn't anything going on at the Cotton Gin that day so I was able to play around on the scale as long as I needed. The closest CAT scale is a long way from me.

[{Tpc}]

You can purchase what is called a "sherline" scale 2000 lb on amazon for about $140. Mine has a piece that screws into it, so you can place in in the spot where the ball goes, or you can take that off and put the "foot" of the tongue jack on it. I prefer to take the measurement from the ball area because it is more accurate in my minds eye.

That said, it can be a challenge to determine how to "balance" it and at the right height. If your setup with the wdh is good (level, adjusted etc), you could measure the height of the top of the receiver to the ground, and then cut a 4x4 piece of wood the proper size so that when you put the sherline under it, its at a similar height. Sherline would sit on top of the wood, the wood on the flat ground. I would do this on flat ground. Use the tongue jack to raise it up, put the setup underneath and then slowly lower onto the scale. Once the tongue jack is free, check the weight.

If it were to slip because it wasn't on it right, it will drop maybe a 1/2 in onto the tongue jack foot? Less if you did it real slow. Just make sure everything is square and flat, and you should be fine.

[Bobnjudy78748]

The stamped emblem on the tow chain of our 2021 Apex Nano Off Grid reads an empty weight of 4033#. My Sherline tongue scale is on order bc with battery, 2 propane tanks, 10 gal water, 50#s on top of the queen bed, empty fridge, and about 80# in front storage, it tows poorly. I believe it's quite front heavy.
TV is 2019 GMC Canyon diesel (340# torque) with factory tow package of 7000# capacity, 1460# payload, 700# hitch weight, factory electric brake control and anti sway. Hitch is Andersen WDH anti sway. The squat is 1" on front axle and almost 2 on rear; that's seems to be a lot.
I'll put a couple hundred # aft of the camper axles, measure with the Sherline, and repost.

[Bilcin]

Originally Posted by phillyg

Yes, measuring just the tongue on a scale would give you actual weight. I'd want to know that, too. If your tongue weighs more than 1000lbs, the only way to ensure you won't be overloaded for travel is to hook up the WDH and reweigh the tongue to ensure you're under 1000lbs.

Thanks, that is what I thought. Then why do many people weigh their truck and Trailer with 3 different weights to determine the tongue weight????

[Bilcin]

Originally Posted by Bobnjudy78748

The stamped emblem on the tow chain of our 2021 Apex Nano Off Grid reads an empty weight of 4033#. My Sherline tongue scale is on order bc with battery, 2 propane tanks, 10 gal water, 50#s on top of the queen bed, empty fridge, and about 80# in front storage, it tows poorly. I believe it's quite front heavy.
TV is 2019 GMC Canyon diesel (340# torque) with factory tow package of 7000# capacity, 1460# payload, 700# hitch weight, factory electric brake control and anti sway. Hitch is Andersen WDH anti sway. The squat is 1" on front axle and almost 2 on rear; that's seems to be a lot.
I'll put a couple hundred # aft of the camper axles, measure with the Sherline, and repost.

Thanks, keep us updated!

[Bilcin]

Originally Posted by {Tpc}

You can purchase what is called a "sherline" scale 2000 lb on amazon for about $140. Mine has a piece that screws into it, so you can place in in the spot where the ball goes, or you can take that off and put the "foot" of the tongue jack on it. I prefer to take the measurement from the ball area because it is more accurate in my minds eye.

That said, it can be a challenge to determine how to "balance" it and at the right height. If your setup with the wdh is good (level, adjusted etc), you could measure the height of the top of the receiver to the ground, and then cut a 4x4 piece of wood the proper size so that when you put the sherline under it, its at a similar height. Sherline would sit on top of the wood, the wood on the flat ground. I would do this on flat ground. Use the tongue jack to raise it up, put the setup underneath and then slowly lower onto the scale. Once the tongue jack is free, check the weight.

If it were to slip because it wasn't on it right, it will drop maybe a 1/2 in onto the tongue jack foot? Less if you did it real slow. Just make sure everything is square and flat, and you should be fine.

Thanks, will look into that scale.

[NC Bill]

I got an axle weight at a CAT scale, showed my two truck axles plus my trailer axles. I then parked my camper in the lot of the truck stop and got a repeat weight of just my two truck axles. Then I knew the answer for sure.

[The Evil Twin]

Originally Posted by Bilcin

Thanks, that is what I thought. Then why do many people weigh their truck and Trailer with 3 different weights to determine the tongue weight????

To get TV axle weights as well as TW.
As an aside, placing the Sherline (or other) scale under the jack will read a HIGHER weight than is actually in the ball. The further one gets from the fulcrum (axle) the easier it is to lift something. Laws of leverage. Moment=force x distance.

[SailorSam20500]

Originally Posted by Bilcin

I have participated in a few tongue weight topics about how to determine tongue weight. I am familiar with the 3 weights needed to get the tongue weight. My 2005 F150 can support 990lbs of tongue weight with a weight distributing hitch. If I buy a travel trailer, load it with what I need for my trip, can't I simply take my trailer to a truck scale and simply unhook my trailer putting the tongue jack on the scale? Now, would weight result be the tongue weight? What does weighing the truck and trailer hooked but no spring bars, then with spring bars and then the truck separately? If I simply wanted the tongue weight, wouldn't weighing the tongue jack give the most accurate weight?
Thank you.

FWIW, RVSEF (RV Safety & Education Foundation) does weighings of RVs. I had them do mine. They only take 2 weights. Truck alone as ready to tow and fully hooked up ready to tow. According to them, difference between two truck weights is TW. RVSEF weighing provides weight for each wheel, not axle totals. Weight from side to side on an axle can be different by several hundred pounds, my difference is 200 lbs.
Safe travels!

[NC Bill]

The truck stop scale I used had separate sections. As long as the steer axle was on one, the drive axle on another and the trailer axles on a third section, it gave me three individual weights. The next trip through was just the truck with the steer axle on one and the drive axle on a second section. Simple math and I got tongue weight, total trailer weight and so on. If I tried to separate multiple trailer axles that would have been trickier. Probably would have done a third weight.

[Boomerweps]

Originally Posted by Bilcin

Thanks, that is what I thought. Then why do many people weigh their truck and Trailer with 3 different weights to determine the tongue weight????

Because they do not. The weights are desired to know all axle weights, and also, for me, to know how much the WDH is levering the weight around. I found I was overweight on my TT GAWR. Single axles are more of a concern.

[NJKris]

Originally Posted by The Evil Twin

To get TV axle weights as well as TW.
As an aside, placing the Sherline (or other) scale under the jack will read a HIGHER weight than is actually in the ball. The further one gets from the fulcrum (axle) the easier it is to lift something. Laws of leverage. Moment=force x distance.

Shouldn't this mean the weight on the ball is less than on the jack? Just as you said, moment = force x dist. So lifting the trailer at the ball hitch would be easier since it is further from fulcrum (axle) due to more torque. Conversely, less weight is apparent (the force acting against the lifting, or torque).

[SailorSam20500]

Originally Posted by NJKris

Shouldn't this mean the weight on the ball is less than on the jack? Just as you said, moment = force x dist. So lifting the trailer at the ball hitch would be easier since it is further from fulcrum (axle) due to more torque. Conversely, less weight is apparent (the force acting against the lifting, or torque).

You are correct. This is also why folks incorrectly assume that a Propride or Hensley hitch will automatically add 200 lbs to TW. The additional distance from axle to where these hitches transfer the weight places more of the trailer weight on the trailer axle. From reading numerous people posting TW with these hitches after switching from something else, the delta is often +/- 25 lbs.

[lbrjet]

Bilcin,

Your receiver rating should be compared against the hitch load, which is the sum of the WDH plus the tongue weight. You can manually weigh the WDH. To calculate the tongue weight with the CAT scale you need two weightings. The first with the truck only with the hitch head on and the bars in the truck bed. The second with the trailer and the bars still in the bed. The difference in the two truck weights is the tongue weight. Tongue weight is the portion of the trailer weight supported by the tongue jack that is transferred to the truck axles when you raise the trailer jack. A WDH does not change the tongue weight, it simply shifts truck axle loads from/to one another and to the trailer axle(s).

If anyone would like to know the physics behind a WDH, reading the first thread in the towing section on RV.NET is a good place to start.

[Bilcin]

Originally Posted by NC Bill

I got an axle weight at a CAT scale, showed my two truck axles plus my trailer axles. I then parked my camper in the lot of the truck stop and got a repeat weight of just my two truck axles. Then I knew the answer for sure.

Thank you, that seems very straightforward!

[Bilcin]

Originally Posted by SailorSam20500

FWIW, RVSEF (RV Safety & Education Foundation) does weighings of RVs. I had them do mine. They only take 2 weights. Truck alone as ready to tow and fully hooked up ready to tow. According to them, difference between two truck weights is TW. RVSEF weighing provides weight for each wheel, not axle totals. Weight from side to side on an axle can be different by several hundred pounds, my difference is 200 lbs.
Safe travels!

Yes, I know the axle weights of each side of the trailer can vary by hundreds of pounds, depending on how one loads their trailer!