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Old 04-09-2017, 03:41 PM   #1
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Berkshire v Tiffin quality and customer service

I posted a different thread about buying a Berkshire versus a Tiffin but I wanted to address the following responses I got when I posted a similar thread on Tiffin's site.

"I wouldn't even waste my time looking at a Forest River. Pretty much junk across the board. My dealers service department tells the tale pretty well - backed up with FR's and more in the lot behind the shop. A smattering of Tiffins in the bays."

"try calling the owner of forest river with some problems with the coach and see how that goes, with tiffin you can do that"

"I think you'll find that Tiffin's quality is better than what you'll find on the Forest River. I also have info from a dealer I respect who does not care for Forest River's service. Hard to get warranty coverage and they don't even return calls to the dealer's service department. Service wise they aren't even on the same planet as Tiffin Motorhomes."

None of these really answered the heart of my inquiry which followed along the lines of "What specifically makes a Tiffin a "quality" motorhome that commands a premium price. What should I look for when comparing the two? Both have basically the same chassis/drive train. House construction may be different but not necessarily better or worse.

Not interested in starting a forum war. I am just trying to figure out from people who have looked at them, owned them or researched them to learn from their experience. I'm still leaning heavily towards the 2018 Berkshire 34QS but for $10K more I can have a new 2017 Tiffin 333aa.

Calm, rational, thoughts welcome Clearly from at least one of the responses above, I am an idiot for even considering a Berkshire. Curious if anyone who bought a Berkshire would have purchased the comparable Tiffin if the price delta was only $10K instead of $20K or $30K or whatever the standard price delta is.

Looking at a 33aa this week and then back home to look at a Berkshire and tour the Berkshire factory the week after.

Thanks in advance for your time.

Mark
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Old 04-09-2017, 04:00 PM   #2
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The only person that can truly answer your question is you. Do your research.. Research frames motors appliances. Don't take other people's word for spending your $$$. It took my wife and I 2 yrs to figure out what worked best for us and we have been very happy and own a coach that has given us not one head ache Beware of advice on these forums
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Old 04-09-2017, 04:31 PM   #3
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We had been following the Berks for a few years at the local RV show. I liked very much that Forest River is owned by Berkshire Hathaway, which is the legendary conglomerate run by Warren Buffet. Buffet lets the company run on its own, and only steps in if they screw up and get into trouble. So, he wouldn't let FR fall apart – he'd fix the management first.

We had assumed that the Berks were pretty pricey, but when we looked closely at an RV show in 2015, they were a lot less expensive than I expected. As a result, we bought at the show and didn't look at any other RVs.

In addition, we met the FR rep at the RV show where we bought our Berk. He was knowledgeable and not pushy.

I, like many other Berk owners, have gotten in touch directly with the FR warranty people and they cover various items with extended warranty as needed. I've discussed a few situations where they didn't cover some things that I expected, but they were pretty good with most of the things that bothered me. Overall, I didn't have much need for warranty service at all.

My Berk is well built, so we're happy.

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Old 04-09-2017, 05:31 PM   #4
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I think that you will find most Berk owners happy overall as a group. I have a 2014 and have gone to the factory mostly for service. I have not paid for anything, yet, and I have an extended warranty that I could have used. That being said, I don't expect free service forever. Most issues seem to be with inside trim and slides. I love how the owners of other models bash FR and really have no experience to back up their claims. I would think that if a dealer can make more profit on a model, he will push that product. But I don't know that as fact, so I would never make that statement. As advised by a previous poster, do your homework. Look at workmanship and fit. Try out the slides and watch and listen to the differences. Find a floorplan that works for you. I did not expect my Berk to be comparable to a Newmar costing twice as much. Berks discount to a to a very reasonable price for what you get. That was my biggest selling point. If you narrow your choices in Berks down to a floorplan that you like, ask for owners of that model on FRF for advice. Good luck. It can seem overwhelming, but it will work out. BTW, I love my Berk!!!



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Old 04-09-2017, 05:49 PM   #5
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"None of these really answered the heart of my inquiry which followed along the lines of "What specifically makes a Tiffin a "quality" motorhome that commands a premium price. What should I look for when comparing the two? Both have basically the same chassis/drive train. House construction may be different but not necessarily better or worse."

The reason you are not getting answers is that your questions are very, very vague regarding a very, very complex and detailed subject. If you want to make good comparisons, you will have to do your own homework, not rely on forum members to short cut your research.

Some of what you need to compare is what you can see, most of it is what you can not see. These units are complex and you have to dig deeply into the details of construction, materials, and lack of quality control for custom units where workers struggle to complete the work on production lines that keep moving.

For the most part, what you pay for is what you get, with meaningful exceptions.

Make your mind up to be happy with what you buy and the compromises you made. Trying to justify your decisions are often a losing battle with other RV owners who are proud of their units, whatever they own.

What really matters is whether or not you are enjoying your unit doing whatever you want to do with it. Just remember that these units eat up cash, require more repairs than some/most owners are willing to make, and require more maintenance that some/most owners are willing to...and pay for.

But, if you are a strong DIY, you will probably be the happiest as you won't be relying on going through a warranty process and working with a poorly paid, poorly skilled (for the most part) RV service technician. Which is why fixing things yourself or relying on the mobile guys tends to result in a better overall experience than with dealers.

BTW, most service techs consider entry-level units CxxP.

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Old 04-09-2017, 07:43 PM   #6
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Not really sure my questions about quality are all that vague. I have been doing research for quite a while which is how I ended up at my initial decision to purchase a Tiffin 33aa but, as happenstance would have it, I then ran across the Berkshire 34QS. It has a sound fan base and is discounted more than a a Tiffin 33aa which has the same ballpark MSRP. Moreover, my wife and I liked it a lot.

I personally think the forums are a great place to seek out others' experience rather than reinventing the wheel but they are just one aspect of my overall research .

My question about quality can be quantitatively answered. For example, other than the obvious, and measurably larger trans/360 hp combo, perhaps the Tiffin has more robust frame rails and/or chassis, more robust house framing, superior, heavier weight vinyl, Corian throughout, etc.. You get the idea. And 'robust' can actually quantified as 'thicker, better steel, framing spaced closer to together, etc.. Things I may be overlooking but others may have answers to or wish they would have known or were delighted to find out. Trying to get past the shiny, pretty factor. Just looking for more data points.

We'll see what the Tiffin dealer says this week when we spend half a day with him and then we get to do the same with the Berkshire dealer the week after. I am sure, protests to the contrary notwithstanding, that both units are decent units and I continue to appreciate everyone who takes the time to offer advice and experience.

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Old 04-09-2017, 09:49 PM   #7
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:13 AM   #8
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I owned a Tiffin 36LA for several years and went to a Berkshire 40RB because I wanted to go diesel and liked the Berks floorplan. I won't get into the quality of build issue because honestly I have been quite pleased with both. Regarding customer service however I do have some experiences with both. I have called the individuals at Forest River, whose numbers were provided on this forum, on several occasions and left messages that were never returned, and have yet to ever actually speak with anyone at Forest River for assistance. On the other hand, I had very positive experiences dealing with Tiffin on numerous occasions. Every time I called Tiffin I would get an individual who would transfer me to the person who could best help me and they were always knowledgeable and friendly. It appears to be a different business model at Tiffin where they want to be sure you actually speak to someone. Again, I am very happy with my Berkshire, but after owning both, my personal experience regarding customer service goes hands down to Tiffin. Good luck with your decision.
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:12 AM   #9
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Although I have not owned a Tiffin and therefore can't really "compare", but I can tell you that we thoroughly enjoy our 2013 390RB Berkshire. I have had the opportunity to work with/talk to the service people at Forest River a few times for minor issues. I have not had any issue talking with them either via email or phone call. I will tell you that it might take them a day or two to call me back if I leave a message, but they have always called back and been great to deal with. I know several other Berkshire owners that rave about their customer service as well. In my mind they are good people that do good/honest work. That's my two cents.
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Old 04-10-2017, 02:48 PM   #10
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We looked very hard at the Tiffin before we bought our Berkshire. There were a number of reasons that we did not go with the Tiffin. The local Tiffin dealer here has one of the worst reputations of any RV dealer that I have ever heard of so that was a first big strike. Even knowing that the dealer has a very checkered reputation, Bob Tiffin stays with him and even has him represent the brand in Hershey so that made me question the brand.

The next big knock was the seeming constant trips to Red Bay that many Tiffin owners seem to need/want. I have no urge to go to Red Bay, Alabama whenever I need service because the local dealer can't handle any issues. I'm sure it's a lovely town, but it's not where I want to spend any length of time. When reading the Tiffin Forum I come across all kinds of stories of people spending as much as 100+ days in Red Bay. Now maybe I would be a one of the lucky ones and never have to go to Red Bay, but I really wasn't willing to take that chance.

And our third big reason was that there was no justification that I could come up with that would make the Tiffin a better buy than the Berkshire. The aisle of the Tiffin was almost impassible with the slides in so there was no reason to go with the Tiffin, particularly considering the added cost to go with the Tiffin.

A friend of mine bought a new Allegro Bus. He traded it after six months with a punch list of over 100 items that seemed to never get fixed. If you would ever like to hear a tirade about Tiffin quality just mention the word to him.

We have had really good luck with our rig and we are considering another Berkshire as we speak so that should say something right there. Anyone can get a bad rig from any manufacturer out there, but there seems to be a lot less complaints on here about Berkshire quality than what I read on the Tiffin forum.
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Old 04-10-2017, 03:08 PM   #11
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Lol or not, I read this whole deal, for every right there's a wrong, I also never owned a tiffin, when I compare manufactures build however I stand at back or front in good day light an observe down the sides looking for that perfect MH an non are prefect or any better than my 2015 Charleston. So then it's structure you can not see , an inside is all manufactured by some one else , so it's quality of build. I am Mr Picky Pants, I don't care how much you spend none of these coaches come even close to perfect . But for what I spent an what I have I feel the Berk an Charleston is a pretty good bang for the buck. An for price range, I feel no other manufactures come close to style . I would park alongside any comparable tiffin product any day . It's funny to me that every tiffin buyer knows bob, why do they know bob ? Because they all been to Red Bay. Al. An some more than once. Ask me how many times have I been to Elkhart. Lol None. How many times has Tiffin sent a driver out to get a customers coach for a repair an deliver it back, non I heard of, but FR has done it. Ok as far as FR customer service.... for us it's been great, I've talked to factory techs they talk me through my issue send me parts if I need an I mean like in 3 days, I have always had my calls returned.. for us the FR experience is everything a person should expect.. I've had the opportunity to talk with their southeastern rep, an he has taken time to talk as long as you want about his product.. now are there whore stories in this industry, from prevost to some bodies pop up heck yes, so in short don't buy if your not a strong individual mentally because it's ride down the road, fix an ride, an in between you'll have lots of fun, met a lot of fun people an that's RVIng
We are registered into FR Rally in Goshen, Ind in August an really look forward to meeting FR family.
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Old 04-10-2017, 03:49 PM   #12
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Lol or not, I read this whole deal, for every right there's a wrong, I also never owned a tiffin, when I compare manufactures build however I stand at back or front in good day light an observe down the sides looking for that perfect MH an non are prefect or any better than my 2015 Charleston. So then it's structure you can not see , an inside is all manufactured by some one else , so it's quality of build. I am Mr Picky Pants, I don't care how much you spend none of these coaches come even close to perfect . But for what I spent an what I have I feel the Berk an Charleston is a pretty good bang for the buck. An for price range, I feel no other manufactures come close to style . I would park alongside any comparable tiffin product any day . It's funny to me that every tiffin buyer knows bob, why do they know bob ? Because they all been to Red Bay. Al. An some more than once. Ask me how many times have I been to Elkhart. Lol None. How many times has Tiffin sent a driver out to get a customers coach for a repair an deliver it back, non I heard of, but FR has done it. Ok as far as FR customer service.... for us it's been great, I've talked to factory techs they talk me through my issue send me parts if I need an I mean like in 3 days, I have always had my calls returned.. for us the FR experience is everything a person should expect.. I've had the opportunity to talk with their southeastern rep, an he has taken time to talk as long as you want about his product.. now are there whore stories in this industry, from prevost to some bodies pop up heck yes, so in short don't buy if your not a strong individual mentally because it's ride down the road, fix an ride, an in between you'll have lots of fun, met a lot of fun people an that's RVIng
We are registered into FR Rally in Goshen, Ind in August an really look forward to meeting FR family.
What kind of stories in this industry? Tell us those stories please LOL.
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:00 PM   #13
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I have no dog in this fight... as I am a happy gasser & my best buddy has a Tiffin gasser and we are both happy campers.
BUT... Tiffin recently made an announcement I think the OP may be interested in.

Tiffin limits factory service on older motorhomes – RV Travel

They will no longer service any coach over 4 years old in Red Bay.
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Old 04-10-2017, 07:05 PM   #14
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Mark,
We went thru the same type questions you are, nearly to the point of just giving up. It's a big decision to be sure. We couldn't come up with much that was totally objective-it just always seemed as though things ended up as fairly balanced. Finally it dawned on us that everything being pretty equal the bottom line was what felt right, what floor plan was best for us, and the bang for the buck. Every type A does the same thing, really, whether it's a million bucks or far less- just with extra creature comforts. The Berkshire just felt right, had what we wanted, and we just couldn't justify the extra cost difference. We've got 7100 miles and some pretty tough experiences with it and we love it. They're both great coaches and if taken care of should be a lot of fun so to us it ended this way. I suspect you'd be happy whichever way you decide. I'm betting the skill and connection with the salesperson will have a huge impact.
And our experience with FR factory support has been excellent. Now if every dealer would service even units they didn't sell I'd be even happier 😊
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Old 04-10-2017, 08:44 PM   #15
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I have no dog in this fight... as I am a happy gasser & my best buddy has a Tiffin gasser and we are both happy campers.
BUT... Tiffin recently made an announcement I think the OP may be interested in.

Tiffin limits factory service on older motorhomes – RV Travel

They will no longer service any coach over 4 years old in Red Bay.
They just shot themselves in the foot, certainly killing the tiffin used market
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Old 04-10-2017, 09:31 PM   #16
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When reading the Tiffin Forum I come across all kinds of stories of people spending as much as 100+ days in Red Bay. Now maybe I would be a one of the lucky ones and never have to go to Red Bay, but I really wasn't willing to take that chance.
Don't know about 100+ Days, but the guy across from us in the Allegro Bay told me yesterday that the average wait time he was given to have his defective headlights replaced was 6 days (6 days to replace a component that comes out with 6 screws and a electrical connector? )

Maybe those 100+ day waits WERE accurate

Chassis - OK the Powerglide is built in house by Tiffin.

A Berkshire is built on a Freightliner Chassis - for my money I'll stick with the Daimler company

Build Quality - mmmm been to both Red Bay and Elkhart and I am more impressed with the line at Elkhart.

I feel that our unit surpasses the Allegro Bus - we would have to go to a Zephyr and I am not prepared to drop that sort of money on a mid-range Class A.

RE: the comments about not being able to talk to folks at Forest River. Really? I just got off the phone with Andy Thompson this afternoon, and spoke to Randy Houser last week. Bob Byrne, Directer of the Owner's Group has a daily presence on these forums and I have had several occasions to speak to Pete Liegl at the FROG Rally.

Speaking of a Rally - does Tiffin host a Annual Rally like Forest River? Hardly.
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Old 04-10-2017, 10:54 PM   #17
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Forest River vs Tiffin

So let me say this about that. I can not tell you why you should buy one over the other, I Will tell you why I chose the Forest River XL 40BH 380.

I looked at both the Tiffin and Berk with great concern as to quality and price. The Tiffin model that was close to the Berk 40BH was the Allegro RED 38QBA Bunk House. The chassis and drive train was similar, we opped for the larger engine with the 380 HP. The floor plan was really close Queen bed in the rear, mid bath with a shower Bunks mid way across from bath, then coming forward is the kitchen living area. Our Berk has an electric Fireplace that the Tiffin did not come with, ( that may be an option now) We also have a L shaped sofa, also not on the Tiffin, and we have the French door bottom freezer residential fridge, that was also not an option with the 2016 models. Our Berk included the stacked Washer and Dryer and included the Winnegard Satellite, Also the Berk has two big screen TV's in the living room/kitchen.

Things that seemed to be the same were the fabrics the cushions in the sofas and dinette the carpet in the bedroom. the wall coverings window treatments and ceiling are all of similar quality.

We have a Tiffin RV Dealership about 35 miles from my house, and a Forest River Forest River Towable Dealer about 7 miles away.

We bought the Berk from Total Value RV in Indiana about 260 miles away. The local Forest River dealer told me that even though I did not buy from them they would be happy to do any warranty work for me. I did in fact ask them if they could order a Berk for me but they said they could only sell towables even though they are FR Dealers they could not sell any motorized RV's.

So the bottom line for us was the cost. We looked at the Tiffin and the Berk with some features of the Tiffin seeming to be a bit nicer. but they did not seem to be worth the higher price of the Tiffin.

This is our second RV, The first was a 2008 Forest River Georgetown Gasser, that we bought new. We never had any problems with that unit so that helped us decide to stay with the Forest River Brand.....Ta Da
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Old 04-11-2017, 07:52 AM   #18
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Have never owned a Tiffin, did look at a few. I've owned a LOT of RV's, mostly new, from a variety of manufacturers.

I would be VERY surprised if there was anything substantially different about Tiffin other than the fact that it is not located in Elkhart.

Generally speaking you get what you pay for, and IMHO that's not a whole lot. Compared to automobiles, RV's are expensive, fickle and fragile. The more expensive ones generally have used marginally better materials, workmanship and MAY offer slightly better service. (Not always the case).

They are luxury items and people, with the possible exception of full timers, are not dependent on them. Therefore people will put up with a lot more BS than they otherwise would. Personally I think the industry as a whole could do a LOT better. We're still building these things out of match sticks, paper maché and cardboard for Pete's sake!

Fortunately I am a "tool guy" and rarely seek the assistance of "professionals". If it weren't for that I too would be dealing with lengthy repairs where the unit sits at the dealership, everyone tells me BS about parts and the factory, and then give me the unit back with a shoddy repair or with something else broken. (I exaggerate, but not much). The only time I went back was to the factory was when Heartland took the front cap off my less than 2 year old fifth wheel to reinforce the frame as the thing was seriously under built by Lippert to begin with and the frame was FLEXING. Although the repair was free, it cost me 2000 miles of driving and loss of four days!!!!!

Someone above hit the nail on the head. Owners are proud of whatever they bought. They wouldn't have bought the wrong thing now would they? I am more sceptic. I like my Berk. It is REASONABLY well done, and with time and effort I can keep it going. At this point I would buy it again. The next one may be another Berk, or something different. I would probably have been just as happy with anything else at this price point. At the end of the day it's chassis/engine and layout. Period.

If you want to see the same story you can look at the boating industry.
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Old 04-11-2017, 08:16 AM   #19
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Bob, my 100+ days was a reference to a lady who had actually spent 112 days in Red Bay. She had a bunch of minor issues but the way Red Bay took care of those issues was a bit bizarre. Apparently she waited to get the first issue resolved. Then she had to go to the back of the line for issue number two and so on. Using the six days for a headlight issue it wouldn't take long for a list of items to hit over 100 days.

As an interesting side note one poster on the Tiffin forum is stating that there were a bunch of Berkshires in the campground he was in that were having delamination issues. I'm not aware of anyone having those issues. He is also claiming that there were other issues with a 45 foot Berkshire which I find very interesting as the first one won't come off the line until this summer.
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Old 04-11-2017, 09:04 AM   #20
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Bob, my 100+ days was a reference to a lady who had actually spent 112 days in Red Bay. She had a bunch of minor issues but the way Red Bay took care of those issues was a bit bizarre. Apparently she waited to get the first issue resolved. Then she had to go to the back of the line for issue number two and so on. Using the six days for a headlight issue it wouldn't take long for a list of items to hit over 100 days.
Ed,

WOW! That is bizarre! And to think 112 days in Red Bay (that's almost 4 months! )

About 2 weeks after we bought our Berk we got a nice letter from the Diesel Division saying that if our coach was in the shop for more than 5 business days, to give them a call so they could work with the repair center to expedite repairs.
I guess that procedure would not work if you are at the Mother Ship!

I have had repairs to our Berk both at the Mother Ship (Diesel Division) and at a local dealer. In both cases, I handed the rep a punch list of things that needed fixing on the date we were scheduled for repairs. A team of tech swarmed our coach (at the factory it was 4; 2 at the dealership) and they fixed each item on the list right then and there.

I'll take that process over Red Bay's any time!

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As an interesting side note one poster on the Tiffin forum is stating that there were a bunch of Berkshires in the campground he was in that were having delamination issues. I'm not aware of anyone having those issues.
Really? Funny - we have the "I saw A Berkshire" thread in the FRF and folks constantly lament that they hardly run into a "bunch" of Berkshires at campgrounds - 1 maybe 2 at most. In fact, the largest collection of Berkshires I have seen camped together was at Goshen last year.

Numbers aside, I am with you Ed - never hear of that problem. Our walls are Gel coated vacuum bonded with a full body paint job & 4x clear coat, capped with a one piece fiberglass roof. I guess it could delam but I have never seen it and I have camped with folks with 6+ year old Berkshires.

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He is also claiming that there were other issues with a 45 foot Berkshire which I find very interesting as the first one won't come off the line until this summer.
Yep - that would be the 45A - due in July-ish 2017 so I have two words for the poster about the 45' Berk: Fake News!
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