Cold Weather Camping

[Oscarvan]

Originally Posted by erniet

Oscarvan, you state you use your 750 watt heater in the fresh water bay. Is that enough heat to move over to the water manifold? Also, I'm in WI and it gets down to the O degrees F in the winter. I'm planning to head south right after Christmas so I could be in cold temps for 24 - 48 hours. I've ran Winnebagos in the past at O deg temps with no real problems, yes I'm spoiled!
I've got one of those Girard tank-less water heaters, any advice there?
Thanks,

It was enough to keep the manifold side warm... but I think it got into the high to mid 20's. Below that I would probably add one on the other side.

ZERO? Dude, that's low. I would have heaters everywhere, or winterize and go to a hotel..... Uncharted territory as far as I'm concerned. Of course the coach freezing would be the least of my problems. Being served divorced papers and legal complaints of spousal abuse would be the headliner......

As far as the water heater..... I have an access panel in the bathroom to the back side of it. I take that off so the heat can get to it. So far so good.

[ernest917]

I may be wrong but I don't think the furnace in a Berkshire heats the basement..... I know it doesn't in mine.....

[Igave]

My 2016 40A has vented heat into the basement. It’s in the large part of the basement which really doesn’t have much, if any, air flow to the tanks nor the manifold. Based on what I’ve observed with it traveling in cold weather I would not at all trust that small amount of heated air to keep the pipes or manifold safe. The other good options in this thread are a far more reliable option.

[dave-g]

So I'm drive-way camping while I remodel the house- currently 40 degrees out- remote wet bay thermometer reads 49, inside 66 running ceiling hp. It has been in the 50's most days in NJ, so with-out extra heat- wet bay is only a few degrees warmer than out side. There is also zero wind.

When I took delivery of rv ( 2 years ago )I did a 16 degree over night- left block heater in over night and ran hot water every 2 hours- thank God nothing froze- I would not go that cold again without some heaters in wet bay.

Also a gallon or 2 of anti-freeze in the black and gray tanks could help it they are on the empty side.

[formerFR]

funny, the only two times we've ever had our outside water hose freeze happened to be at the Trailer RV park at the Grand Canyon : )

and we had done a lot of 'camping' before then, and really didn't think that a few hours in sub-freezing temps would be any big issue. This time it created a little problem of 'how to' thaw the 20' hose.
I decided to curl it up as best as possible, lay it in the shower after plugging the shower drain, and use the water pump to fill up a few inches of hot water... it was thawed in less than 30 minutes.

From then on, I decided that when we were ready for bed, I would detach the outside water hose, drain it, and store it in the storage bay overnight. Much easier to deal with the next morning when it's not frozen!

I also started using a small electric heater in the wet bay overnight, plugged into the 15/20GFCI shore outlet with an extension cord... keeps the bay warm and let's you sleep easier at night. : )

as for basement or wet bay 'heat' from the Furnace, I think most larger coaches, those without heated tanks, simply provide another floor register outlet into the roof of the basement. This works fine IF you use your furnace overnight, but if, like us, you tend to default to electric heaters when you have shore power, you'll not get any heat in there...

[GoneSouth10]

An update from the FWIW Department:
So we had four nights at the Grand Canyon Trailer Village RV Park, with overnight lows (reported, not measured by me) of 24, 26, 30 and 30 degrees. I put a small cup of water outside my wet bay just to see if it would freeze overnight, but I don't think it ever did - at least it wasn't frozen when I checked it first thing in the morning. The closest think to frozen water was some frost on the picnic tables in the morning.
Thus, it's tough to say if any of my preparations were necessary/worked, but I did disconnect my water hose and I placed a small (micro) space heater inside the manifold bay overnight. The pedestal had a separate 15/20 amp plug, so I just ran a cord from that to the space heater. Turned the tank heaters on as well.
That said, the Berkshire was more than comfortable with a room size ceramic heater in the bedroom and the furnace set for about 62 degrees - we'd pop the furnace up to about 68 first thing in the morning until after breakfast and it'd be off until night.
BTW, really enjoyed Trailer Village - not much on amenities, but you can't beat the location vis a vis the Grand Canyon!

[Oscarvan]

Better to be over prepared than under. Freezing up is the last thing you want to do. Plus, it was a good training drill!

[gordonsick]

On our 2015 34QS, I often wondered whether the tank heater works. Then, I noticed that turning it on caused a a small current draw in the Magnum Remote panel. Something like 7 or 8 amps, as I recall, so that is only about 100 watts, at best, and it doesn't add any noticeable heat to the fresh water tank.

In cold weather, I always fill the tank, even when I see insulating tape around the pipes at the campground. If I freeze their tap with a hose connected, I could be liable to them for a repair bill.

In the passenger side of my water bay, I removed the useless white panel and installed an interior car warmer on the wall. They are popular in Canada. I run it continuously at the campground when the temperature is cold, and it keeps my bathroom and kitchen floor warm. It does warm up the water in the manifold, because it comes out warm when I first open a cold tap. Then, it cools off when it starts to supply tank water.

Our hot water manifold has a spare outlet, so installed a hose bib on it so that I can run hot water into the fresh water tank fill. That way, I can cycle the hot water into the fresh water tank if I can't get the power to run the heater that I installed on the other end. I've never used it yet, though. The one foot whip hose from my Camco water filter fits beautifully for this job.

Our Girard Gen II on-demand heater will turn on by itself to warm up the pipes in the heater if they get really cold. It is a documented feature of the unit, and has worked for me. Note that this heater is located outside the insulated walls of the coach.

--Gordon

[GoneSouth10]

Originally Posted by gordonsick

In the passenger side of my water bay, I removed the useless white panel and installed an interior car warmer on the wall. They are popular in Canada. I run it continuously at the campground when the temperature is cold, and it keeps my bathroom and kitchen floor warm. It does warm up the water in the manifold, because it comes out warm when I first open a cold tap. Then, it cools off when it starts to supply tank water.

Our hot water manifold has a spare outlet, so installed a hose bib on it so that I can run hot water into the fresh water tank fill. That way, I can cycle the hot water into the fresh water tank if I can't get the power to run the heater that I installed on the other end. I've never used it yet, though. The one foot whip hose from my Camco water filter fits beautifully for this job.

Gordon - What sort of "interior car warmer" are you using? (We didn't have those growing up in Cochrane!) Are you just running an extension cord into the water bay?
I had thought about some sort of recirculating system to avoid any pipe freezing, but hadn't really got past the conceptual stage. Do you have any photos of your mod?

[GoneSouth10]

Originally Posted by gordonsick

Our Girard Gen II on-demand heater will turn on by itself to warm up the pipes in the heater if they get really cold. It is a documented feature of the unit, and has worked for me. Note that this heater is located outside the insulated walls of the coach.

--Gordon

Okay, I checked my unit and I have the Gen II Girard as well (Model GSWH-1M). I looked up the manual (I know, I know - a novel experience) and saw that the burner unit kicks on at 38 degrees and then shuts off when it reaches 58 degrees. So on our trip, I know we had extended periods of time below 38 degrees (as low as 24-26 overnight) and I'm pretty sure I never heard the burner kick on - unless the burner kicking on using this function is a lot quieter than the burner kicking on in the normal water heating mode (which I can definitely hear from the bedroom and from outside).
Also, related question, were you able to use this function in conjunction with the recirculating mod you described to actually move a small amount of water through the system when hitting these temperatures?
I realize this is all getting close to the point of overkill, but I really would like to do some winter camping this year - and maybe even make a trip up to Calgary!

[gordonsick]

Originally Posted by GoneSouth10

Gordon - What sort of "interior car warmer" are you using? (We didn't have those growing up in Cochrane!) Are you just running an extension cord into the water bay?
I had thought about some sort of recirculating system to avoid any pipe freezing, but hadn't really got past the conceptual stage. Do you have any photos of your mod?

GoneSouth
Try the Canadian Tire warmer, which is actually on sale now.
https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/searc...q3=Car+Warmers

In the bay with the sliding tray, just ahead of the water tanks, there is an electrical box in the ceiling. I traced things out and found the 20 amp circuit for the microwave. I tapped off of that and installed a plug beside the propane outlet. It has a ground fault interrupter. I run the flat cord from it to the water bay, where I installed the car warmer on the wall. When I don't need the warmer, I just unplug it. It seems to run OK with the microwave at the same time.

Note that you need to remove any phoney panels on the passenger side of the water bay to get the air to circulate better.

–Gordon

[gordonsick]

Originally Posted by GoneSouth10

Gordon -
[snip]
I had thought about some sort of recirculating system to avoid any pipe freezing, but hadn't really got past the conceptual stage. Do you have any photos of your mod?

Here is how I put in a tap that allows me to recirculate hot water to the fresh water tank. A one foot hose does the job.

The fittings on the manifold are "compression fittings", and I got a valve and hose bib combo along with a nice cap to keep it clean.

–Gordon

[gordonsick]

Originally Posted by GoneSouth10

Okay, I checked my unit and I have the Gen II Girard as well (Model GSWH-1M). I looked up the manual (I know, I know - a novel experience) and saw that the burner unit kicks on at 38 degrees and then shuts off when it reaches 58 degrees. So on our trip, I know we had extended periods of time below 38 degrees (as low as 24-26 overnight) and I'm pretty sure I never heard the burner kick on - unless the burner kicking on using this function is a lot quieter than the burner kicking on in the normal water heating mode (which I can definitely hear from the bedroom and from outside).
Also, related question, were you able to use this function in conjunction with the recirculating mod you described to actually move a small amount of water through the system when hitting these temperatures?
I realize this is all getting close to the point of overkill, but I really would like to do some winter camping this year - and maybe even make a trip up to Calgary!

GoneSouth,
When the Girard comes on to protect itself from freezing, you'll hear it, since the induced draft fan comes on to exhaust the flue gases from the heater.

I heard it come on a lot in the first two years of ownership, but I seem to have avoided the need for it lately. The first times, I was camping in the mountains in the fall. Maybe I'm more wimpy now.

I don't use this feature with my process of running hot water through the fresh water tank, which I describe in a separate post.

–Gordon

[merrykalia]

Originally Posted by Kimber45

ditch the water hose and fill your fresh tank.

Do this overnight, every night. Hook it back up in the am when temps get above 32 or you are going to be using it regularly throughout the day.

[GoneSouth10]

Thanks for both updates - that's a great mod in the manifold bay. I'm assuming that's a little faucet on the front of the bib that you just turn on slightly to recirculate the hot water? (After attaching the hose from the bib to the Tank Fill, of course . . .).
Do you find that your Girard kicks on with a trickle of water - or do you need to turn it up a fair bit?

[gordonsick]

The Girard needs a bit of flow to turn on, but not much. One problem is that it is hard to tell when the flame turns off, since the induced draft fan continues to work when the flame stops.

When the Girard is protecting itself from freezing, it doesn't need water to run.

The fitting that I installed is a ball valve with an integrated hose bib. The ball valve comes on with a 90 degree turn.

I probably got it at Home Depot (Canada).

– Gordon

[GoneSouth10]

Originally Posted by gordonsick

GoneSouth,
When the Girard comes on to protect itself from freezing, you'll hear it, since the induced draft fan comes on to exhaust the flue gases from the heater.

I heard it come on a lot in the first two years of ownership, but I seem to have avoided the need for it lately. The first times, I was camping in the mountains in the fall. Maybe I'm more wimpy now.

I don't use this feature with my process of running hot water through the fresh water tank, which I describe in a separate post.

–Gordon

That's what I had assumed, but it's weird because I'm pretty sure it never came on (or that I never heard it), even though we were in temperatures in the mid- to high- twenties. Maybe I need to pay more attention.
Also, the manual states "you must leave the unit powered with the ON/OFF switch in the ON position at all time freezing may occur" in order to activate this feature. However, I have never even looked at the "ON/OFF switch", but I'm assuming that because my unit has always provided hot water on demand, it has always been in the "ON" position, thus the feature should work.

[erniet]

Gordon,
This will be my 1st trip leaving in December headed for AZ in a Berkshire. I previously had a Winnebago Meridian with a heated basement. Your comments on installing a heater on the wall of your water bay intrigue me. Did you install your car heater near the pump in the water bay (passenger side on my coach) or near the water manifold (drivers side on my coach)?
Presently I've got a mini ceramic heater mounted near the water pump and plan to duct some warm air through a 4' pvc tube to the water manifold. I'm in Wisconsin which is a long way south of you. Do you think I will have enough heat? Or, do you think I need to add more heat in the water manifold area?
Thanks! (I already miss my Winnebago) for winter life.

[gordonsick]

Ernie,
We installed it on the passenger side, after removing the useless white vanity panel that blocks airflow.

The driver side is a bit more problematic because there is so much stuff there, and that panel is hard to remove with all the pipes through it.

As I mentioned in another post, I installed a circuit in the storage bay ahead of it and got power from there. The power cords are flat, so I just squeezed them behind the door, making sure not to crimp them with a hinge.

We'll be in Tucson in Late November to early December. Then, we'll return in April or so. Might see you there. Our son is an astronomer working on the LSST telescope with a group on the U of Arizona campus.

–Gordon

[erniet]

Gordon,
I thought about private messaging you since it seems this thread is dying down. But for now will carry on here. It sounds like our MH's are laid out very similar.
I found the 2 electrical boxes on the LH side of the bay in front of the water bay. The one with the Micro circuit is VERY full. Did you add another box near it to branch out? I'm guessing you installed an outlet/receptacle box on the RH side of that bay near the propane outlet to plug the heater into. There is a place in the floor that I was planning to thread the cords through from the heater in the water bay.

I certainly appreciate your knowledge and experience.
I'll be going through Tucson in January headed to Quartzsite. Then might return for a week or so early Feb. sometimes I stay at Prince of Tucson. I move about every week or so to a new location.