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Old 10-18-2018, 09:58 PM   #21
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I guess we all stand corrected.

11 amps! Wow! Make sure you've got it cooled down before you disconnect shore power!
Yep, me too.
Never heard of a 12v only fridge of that size.
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Old 10-19-2018, 08:21 AM   #22
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I guess I should have put this in the original post. The 12 volt refrigerator is in a 2019 Puma 32RBFQ. not a pop up. My son has the same model but it is a 2018. It has a 110 frig with an inverter. Can't say if the 12 volt ref. is an upgrade or not.
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Old 10-26-2018, 10:41 PM   #23
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2019 fridge

Chaparral 285rls has a 12v unit works great so far
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Old 10-27-2018, 06:13 AM   #24
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My wife loves ours, so much more space without the cooling fins and performs just as well as ours at home. Data sheet says it should last 18 hours on a charged battery or more. We rarely boondock so it is good. Wildwood Xlite 241QBXL with an awesome 'fridge.
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Old 09-26-2021, 07:30 PM   #25
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12 volt vs 120 volt / propane refrigerator.......has anyone seen a published thorough discussion of these two refrigeration choices in a TT? I will be buying a new TT in the next 6 months and this will be a choice to be made.
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Old 09-29-2021, 10:45 PM   #26
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12 volt vs 120 volt / propane refrigerator.......has anyone seen a published thorough discussion of these two refrigeration choices in a TT? I will be buying a new TT in the next 6 months and this will be a choice to be made.
How times change!!!!!! When this thread was started most had not heard of 12V compressor fridges. Now they are fairly common. Options on new TT and retrofit on older TTs.

I retrofit a year ago and there's no looking back. Love it. Love not worrying about gas. There's an RV grave yard in, I think Tennessee that has hundreds of RVs many there because of propane fridge fires. A guy did a youtube video on this.

My particular unit is 9.1 cu ft, fridge on top, freezer below, compressor cavity below that.

As for the difference, 12V RV fridges look pretty much like a propane fridge. The 120V ones usually look a bit more "residential" or literally are residential.

12V ones are powered by battery or the converter if you are plugged in to shore power or by solar (during the day).

120V "residential" ones are powered by the battery via an inverter (maybe covered by solar) or by shore power. I think some folks depend on night shore power and tolerate some rise in fridge temperature during the drive day.

If you have shore power often enough, like every night, a 120V one seems ideal. A 120V fridge is probably about as efficient as a 12V fridge, but inverter losses are significant, about 15-17% so a 120V fridge needs more battery capacity than a 12V fridge if you are going to boondock.

The 12V fridges use permanent magnet motors that are very efficient. Most use a "Danfoss" compressor. It is or was made in Denmark IIRC but was bought by Secor and maybe still made there. The most common compressor is the BD35F which draws 5.2 amps at 12V and is adjustable speed (2000 RPM to 3500 RPM). It's even more efficient at 2000 RPM but a larger fridge will need the higher RPM.

My 9.1 cu ft Nova Kool 12V fridge was the same width but an inch shorter than the DMR-702 6.8 cu ft propane fridge that it replaced. We are very much enjoying the larger size. And the much more constant fridge temperature.

If there's a weakness in the 12V fridges, it's a freezer that does not get as cold as a propane fridge. Maybe 20F instead of 5-10F. Other brands may do better. Nova Kool and maybe others make dual compressor 12V fridges. If I had it to do over I'd get the dual compressor one to have a colder and more constant freezer temperature. It will use a bit more energy especially if you set the freezer temperature lower than the single compressor one achieves. It's also about 10# heavier due to the second compressor.

There are probably four or five 12V fridge brands now; maybe more. I read that GE was going to build one. Some of the propane fridge makers now make 12V ones.

My RV is solar only. I never ever plug into shore power. 100% boon docking / dry camping. I added 400W of solar and had 100 Ah of excess battery capacity to cover the 12V fridge. 100 Ah is about right battery wise, but 400W of solar is more than one needs unless one camps in winter. We have been able to avoid trees now for six years and the extra solar makes late fall and early spring west coast camping with the 12V fridge a breeze.

If one expects to camp under trees a lot when boon docking, then a 12V or 120V fridge would be a burden. Running a generator enough hours to keep it cold would be a pain. 12V RV fridges and probably 120V ones run a 50% duty cycle at around 70F and 100% at 100F so camping in hot places .. summer ... would be painful without solar. A generator would need to run constantly at 100F to keep a fridge going non stop. Though one could run from battery for a few hours then re-charge and cover the fridge for a few hours. Still not fun. I think boon dockers with 12V or 120V fridges are best served by lots of battery and even more solar. Personally I'd stick with a 12V fridge for boon docking and dry camping.

My focus above is the typical fridge. There are smaller "under counter" 12V fridges. They draw about 2.2 amps when the compressor is on and probably run the same 50% duty cycle at 70F and 100% at 100F.

My 5 cents.
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Old 09-30-2021, 10:31 AM   #27
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....

If there's a weakness in the 12V fridges, it's a freezer that does not get as cold as a propane fridge. Maybe 20F instead of 5-10F. Other brands may do better.

....

I read that GE was going to build one.

....
I have a GE and I describe in detail my testing and experience with it in this thread:

https://www.forestriverforums.com/fo...ng-236327.html

I need to provide some minor updates to the thread based on most recent experience, but the gist is the same.

Note that my freezer actually does a better job of holding temperature than the refrigerator. I've never seen it above 10F, and it's usually in the range of -10F to 0F.
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Old 09-30-2021, 05:01 PM   #28
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I have a GE and I describe in detail my testing and experience with it in this thread:

https://www.forestriverforums.com/fo...ng-236327.html

I need to provide some minor updates to the thread based on most recent experience, but the gist is the same.

Note that my freezer actually does a better job of holding temperature than the refrigerator. I've never seen it above 10F, and it's usually in the range of -10F to 0F.
Thanks for the link. I did some posts there you might find interesting. You detected things regarding energy that most people never see. Very astute.

I envy your freezer doing so well. The freezer in my Nova Kool is a slave to the fridge. It gets cooling only if the fridge calls for cooling. The freezer door doesn't get opened as much, but still, the larger temperature difference across the freezer insulation (which is no more than that in the fridge as it's shipped from the factory) causes larger temperature swings and a not so cold freezer.

Mostly, with just one compressor, and the thermostat only in the fridge, reduced running time on cold nights results in a warmer freezer in my unit. I can see 10F higher by morning on a night in the 40's.

Do you know what compressor your unit has? Did GE make it's own version of the Secor/Danfoss? You mentioned a four-setting thermostat control so clearly you have just one compressor/condenser.

I am happy with the cool-down in the Nova Kool. The empty fridge will get from low 80's to 35F in the fridge and 20F in the freezer in three hours.* In fact that's a test that Nova Kool will have you run if you think the unit isn't cooling as it should.

I keep the fridge at 34-35F (it holds this well) but it can be 40F (air) after a series of meal prep door openings. It takes about an hour to get back down to 35-36 and another hour to 34-35. Of course, it's mostly the air and contents surfaces that have warmed to 40F; deeper in the contents the temperatures are still in the mid 30's.

* This was as it came from the factory. With my extra insulation and a fan in the freezer, the freezer is down to 15F or lower in three hours.

I do start the fridge a say or two early just to give it a good test before going out.

My energy consumption is much lower than yours though that's obviously because I've doubled the fridge/freezer insulation everywhere but the fridge door.

If you are interested in my effort to get a colder freezer, see this post. This was after installing extra insulation which Nova Kool says will result in a warmer freezer because the added insulation is more effective for the fridge where the temperature controls is. I.e., the freezer is a slave to the fridge and if the fridge calls for less compressor run time, the freezer won't be as cold. I don't disagree with this, but I think Nova Kool is a but optimistic when they say their design is for the freezer to run 20F cooler than the fridge. I barely achieve that with all of my modifications.

https://www.forestriverforums.com/fo...ml#post2637877
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Old 09-30-2021, 06:28 PM   #29
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....

If you are interested in my effort to get a colder freezer, see this post. This was after installing extra insulation which Nova Kool says will result in a warmer freezer because the added insulation is more effective for the fridge where the temperature controls is. I.e., the freezer is a slave to the fridge and if the fridge calls for less compressor run time, the freezer won't be as cold.

....
Thank you for that link. I've pretty much ruled out adding insulation around the device, due to the work involved in removing it and/or panels surrounding it, but I never thought of adding it inside. I'll ponder that, though my first thought is that it wouldn't work as well for my top-freezer GE as it does for your bottom-freezer model. And since I make good use of my freezer, including the door trays, I'd be reluctant to give up any freezer storage capacity.

I see similar temperature trends during periods of lower run time, though with my lower temperature values. (Sorry to make you envious. With your more rapid cool-down, we'll call it even. ) My 10F freezer temperatures are seen first thing in the morning and other times when the compressor has had less need to run. Conversely, the freezer gets as low as -10F during heavy run times.

I will reply to some or all of your posts in my thread at some point soon. Thanks again!
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Old 09-30-2021, 06:43 PM   #30
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Do you know what compressor your unit has? Did GE make it's own version of the Secor/Danfoss? You mentioned a four-setting thermostat control so clearly you have just one compressor/condenser.
No idea. Nothing in any of the GE documentation that I've found mentions a compressor manufacturer. Makes me wonder whether GE makes its own.

And I probably misspoke a bit about the control, implying four discrete settings. It has the four marks on the dial but it functions like a rheostat. But to your point, my assumption all along is that there is only one compressor.

EDIT: While Googling to help prepare a response to one of your posts in my thread, I found the brand name: Wancool. Looks like a Chinese product. Imagine that!
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Old 09-30-2021, 11:23 PM   #31
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Thank you for that link. I've pretty much ruled out adding insulation around the device, due to the work involved in removing it and/or panels surrounding it, but I never thought of adding it inside. I'll ponder that, though my first thought is that it wouldn't work as well for my top-freezer GE as it does for your bottom-freezer model. And since I make good use of my freezer, including the door trays, I'd be reluctant to give up any freezer storage capacity.

I see similar temperature trends during periods of lower run time, though with my lower temperature values. (Sorry to make you envious. With your more rapid cool-down, we'll call it even. ) My 10F freezer temperatures are seen first thing in the morning and other times when the compressor has had less need to run. Conversely, the freezer gets as low as -10F during heavy run times.

I will reply to some or all of your posts in my thread at some point soon. Thanks again!
And, unfortunately for DIY owners of this GE 12V fridge, the opportunity to add insulation is limited. One could not add insulation to the sides where the "skin" condenser coils are. Maybe at the rear and top. The condenser coils that are under the skin of the sides must have air circulation to get ride of heat extracted from the fridge. 12V fridges with coils up the rear also must have good air circulation, but could have added insulation on the sides and top. I went with the Nova Kool RFU9000 in part because I could "super insulate" the sides, rear, and top.

I think one might provide some extra air circulation up the sides to improve condenser efficiency.

I'm really puzzled by the low duty cycles. Modern high efficiency Energy Star fridges get their efficiency in part by using small compressors that almost never stop running (and barely keep up if it's too warm). Some margin

Your freezer could also not have much added insulation since the evaporator coils are in the walls and you don't want to cover them other than with contents.

Dang. I do covet that lower freezer temperature. About 1/3 of our freezer is used for frozen raw meat cat food. We often go weeks without being near a store that carries it, so must pack a couple of pounds of it. Like any raw meat, it should be near zero F if kept for longer periods. Our max is about a month so it needs to be not much above zero F. With my mods the box like cavity formed by the evaporator plate stays about 5F cooler than outside of the box so the cat food goes in there. I'm not sure, but that area is running 9 to 15F in an empty freezer after my most recent modes so the cat food might average around 12F. Though there will be a bump up near morning on cold nights. We are down to one cat now, but may take on another senior cat and that will mean more frozen cat food ........
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Old 09-30-2021, 11:28 PM   #32
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. . . ..
EDIT: While Googling to help prepare a response to one of your posts in my thread, I found the brand name: Wancool. Looks like a Chinese product. Imagine that!
I saw that in the other link to a fellow that installed the GE 12V fridge. He showed photos .... looks like a Chinese copy of the Secor/Danfoss and the model number is somewhat similar! I really was expecting GE to have a new compressor of their own ........... I'm disappointed. I worked for GE from 66 to 70. Still carry the banner a bit.
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Old 10-01-2021, 12:53 PM   #33
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. . . . . .
Note that my freezer actually does a better job of holding temperature than the refrigerator. I've never seen it above 10F, and it's usually in the range of -10F to 0F.
I can't get over this. The ratio of the freezer evap coil to the fridge evap coil must be huge. Or the freezer has a lot more insulation than the fridge. From photos on the GE website, the walls are not super thick, and not thicker around the freezer, so the insulation must be some modern technology.

I read some of the less complimentary reviews on the GE website (link below) and I'm guessing that the slow cool-down is the result of much of the "cold" produced by the compressor/condenser being dropped in the freezer as the refrigerant makes its way to the fridge. I.e., the freezer probably cools down fairly quickly while the fridge lags. Have you noticed that? Both cool nicely in my Nova Kool though the freezer stops in the 15-20F range.

The specs call for 1" clearance on the sides and 2" on the back. No mention of air circulation into and out of those areas. You can drill down at the link below to find this spec.

The current (Amps) spec is interesting. It will be interesting to see some real-life 24 hours energy use numbers. I'm still surprised at the large compressor.

https://www.geappliances.com/applian...tor-GPV10FSNSB
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Old 10-01-2021, 07:22 PM   #34
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I can't get over this. The ratio of the freezer evap coil to the fridge evap coil must be huge. Or the freezer has a lot more insulation than the fridge. From photos on the GE website, the walls are not super thick, and not thicker around the freezer, so the insulation must be some modern technology.

I read some of the less complimentary reviews on the GE website (link below) and I'm guessing that the slow cool-down is the result of much of the "cold" produced by the compressor/condenser being dropped in the freezer as the refrigerant makes its way to the fridge. I.e., the freezer probably cools down fairly quickly while the fridge lags. Have you noticed that? Both cool nicely in my Nova Kool though the freezer stops in the 15-20F range.

The specs call for 1" clearance on the sides and 2" on the back. No mention of air circulation into and out of those areas. You can drill down at the link below to find this spec.

The current (Amps) spec is interesting. It will be interesting to see some real-life 24 hours energy use numbers. I'm still surprised at the large compressor.

https://www.geappliances.com/applian...tor-GPV10FSNSB
I was cleaning the fridge this afternoon from my most recent trip, and after this discussion I noted that the freezer walls are indeed a little thicker than those of the fridge. I measured the horizontal dimensions of the openings and there is a difference of about 1.5" between the two. So it looks like the freezer has the space for an extra 3/4" insulation on each side wall. Presumably there actually is that much more.

Yes, I have seen that GE page, including the specs (also listed in my hard copy of the owner's manual) and the reviews, though I haven't read every review.

Regarding cool-down time, I'll quote from my thread for ease of reference for you and anyone else reading this thread:

Quote:
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....
I found that the refrigerator was slow to cool (not surprising based on others’ reported experiences) and recool after opening. A previous test on shore power showed that it took 11 hours to go from 84F to 40F, as measured by an analog refrigerator thermometer placed at the front of the top shelf and checked hourly. Therefore I always turn the fridge on and connect shore power in my driveway the day before a trip.
....

The freezer reaches proper temperature much faster and has been more consistent in maintaining it. In the same test as the refrigerator from 84F, a separate thermometer showed 8F in only two hours, 4F in three, and between 2F and -2F thereafter. In practice it always shows between 10F and -10F.
....
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Old 10-01-2021, 07:53 PM   #35
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I was cleaning the fridge this afternoon from my most recent trip, and after this discussion I noted that the freezer walls are indeed a little thicker than those of the fridge. I measured the horizontal dimensions of the openings and there is a difference of about 1.5" between the two. So it looks like the freezer has the space for an extra 3/4" insulation on each side wall. Presumably there actually is that much more.

Yes, I have seen that GE page, including the specs (also listed in my hard copy of the owner's manual) and the reviews, though I haven't read every review.

Regarding cool-down time, I'll quote from my thread for ease of reference for you and anyone else reading this thread:
Thanks. My freezer walls don't look thicker though they might have more exotic insulation than the fridge .... though not enough!!

Right now my unit is drawing 2.1 amps (compressor is set to minimum speed) and holding 10F and 34F (freezer and fridge) in 92F ambient. Without door openings. Duty cycle is close to or is 100%. So, about 50 Ah over 24 hr if the temperature was 92F around the clock. So, I can't complain about efficiency though I did add a lot of insulation so I can't give Nova Kool much credit for that.

BTW, my freezer door does not have shelves so adding 2" of insulation to it was easy.

You may wonder about my keen interest in the GE unit since I already have a 12V fridge. My son is considering one for his RV so I have an opportunity to buy a new one and give him the one I have. I'm sure he'd prefer one with a colder freezer but, for the price I'd charge he won't complain. The GE is one I was going to look at if this comes about. Though I think today I would go for the Nova Kool dual compressor one that is otherwise identical to mine. Their price premium on that one is huge though.
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Old 11-21-2021, 02:17 PM   #36
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The little lady and I are currently on a quest for a new 5th wheeler, my understanding from the Cardinal factory rep this is the new standard. I can definitely see the pro but am concerned about the cons which I have yet to see in this thread.
The rep also stated they are adding a solar panel for charging while off the grid.
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Old 11-21-2021, 03:16 PM   #37
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The little lady and I are currently on a quest for a new 5th wheeler, my understanding from the Cardinal factory rep this is the new standard. I can definitely see the pro but am concerned about the cons which I have yet to see in this thread.
The rep also stated they are adding a solar panel for charging while off the grid.
"A solar panel" would have to be a 300W panel to do the job well for boon dockers and dry campers. That and a larger battery. Or more generator time.

For those that stick with shore power, enough battery to last through travel days is all that's needed.

As for cons. Here are mine.

My freezer doesn't stay as cold as I would like. From what I've seen in the forums, this is a characteristic of the particular model I have. Most brands seem to do better. Though the unit I have does seem to use less energy than others as a result. And a dual compressor model is available. I'm going to upgrade to that model if I can pawn my single-compressor unit off on my son.

All or most 12V units are larger (inside) than the gas units they replace. For the bottom/front compressor models like I have, this comes from increased depth using the rear area previously occupied by the gas hardware. A deep refrigerator (25") and freezer can be a nuisance, especially when the unit is full. Stuff gets lost back there. Hard to reach. I suspect the 12V units with lower rear compressor and coils up the back are less deep.

12V may weigh a bit more. Mine was about 20# heavier than the Dometic DMR-702 that it replaced. Mine is on the back wall of a fifth wheel so weight was a consideration. But, yes, I would go for the heavier two-compressor model in spite of this (I moved the spare tire forward to compensate).

Noise. My unit has the compressor under the freezer (it's bottom freezer) and it is audible. Mostly noticeable on quiet evenings. The fans in the gas unit were a nuisance but mostly ran during the day when we were not in the unit or there was other noise to mask the fan noise. I replaced the 12V fan with a quieter one. That helped a lot. The compressor noise is less objectionable. Mine has an adjustable speed compressor. Dropping the speed (compressor runs longer) doesn't reduce the noise level much so I run it on max speed so it doesn't run as long. A unit with bottom-rear compressor (will have coils up the back like a gas unit) would surely be much quieter.

GE started making one a year ago that has the evaporator plates on the inside walls. That's good but the condenser coils are on the outside walls (sides) and I have to wonder if having cold coils and hot coils so close together is a good idea. Maybe they use a super insulation in the walls. And, I don't know how the side wall condenser coils can work well. If the unit is not a built-in, maybe there is enough room up the sides cooling. Mine is a built-in. If one camps in warm weather, having the condenser heat go out a chimney (like gas units) would be an advantage.

Some brands are experiencing huge failure rates based on forum posts. One has to know the number sold to have even a rough idea of failure rates from forum posts, but I took this seriously and ended up with one that's been on the market for ten years with no failures reported.

Less reliable fuel supply. Propane is fairly easy to keep flowing. and you have electric backup when on shore power. 12V is fine on shore power. If dry camp and depend on a generator and modest battery, 12V could be a nuisance. I would not want one without enough battery and solar to cover it with infrequent generator use. Most 12V units need 50 to 100 Ah per day (depends on ambient, 50 when it's cool, 100 when it's hot). When it's hot out, you usually have good solar so the high daytime Ah usage is covered directly by solar if you have solar.

Those are the cons I can think of off-hand. Some are avoidable. Pros are easier to think of. You've got those covered, but here are some that I like.

Quick cool-down. Mine is about three to four hours depending on ambient.

Safer. There's a youtube video by a guy walking an RV wrecking yard. Dozens of units with fires starting at the fridge.

Defrosting ....... I went from a manual defrost gas to a manual defrost 12V. Some 12V have auto defrost. Maybe a pro, not a con. But, my 12V seems easier to do a quick defrost than was the case for the gas.

More reliable. IF you avoid the ones that are having reliability issues.

Larger. More cu ft in the same space.
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Old 11-21-2021, 03:22 PM   #38
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Bob

Really depends on where you live and play.

We use our fiver 10+ weeks a year. Absolutely happy with the gas electric fridge. We are on the Midwest. I can do the math.

Did about two weeks of boondocking this fall. Had to use the generator every other day. The reason is mostly the cpap machine and the furnace! No solar.

There are a lot of cons about electric fridges. Folks in California are in a very different place.
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Old 11-21-2021, 03:29 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomkatb View Post
Bob

Really depends on where you live and play.

We use our fiver 10+ weeks a year. Absolutely happy with the gas electric fridge. We are on the Midwest. I can do the math.

Did about two weeks of boondocking this fall. Had to use the generator every other day. The reason is mostly the cpap machine and the furnace! No solar.

There are a lot of cons about electric fridges. Folks in California are in a very different place.
Tom, Bob was asking what the cons are. Can you list the ones you can think of?
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Old 11-21-2021, 05:28 PM   #40
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Sure, a long discussion.

Residential fridges use at least 30% more electricity than 12 volts. It is the math.

Residential fridges are not made like your grandmothers GE in her basement. The are redesigned to be more efficient. Expected life is 5-7 years. They are not designed for rv’s.

To service them is hard. Rv dealers must use EPA certified techs which most do not have. Thus, you are on your own to get them repaired. If you find someone. They usually insist the fridge be free standing. The modern fridge is kind of fragile. I am not a fan of making 50 or 60 holes in the roof for the panels.

Many residential fridges are too large to go out the door. Thus it is expensive to replace them.

A 20 cu ft gas electric fridge is very expensive. Likely $5000 plus installation is more expensive. My 12 cu ft fridge was $2400. So, by selling you a $600 10 cu ft Chinese fridge is a good deal for someone. I am not aware of larger 12 volt fridges. They have had high failure rates.

A 12 volt fridge can often consume 10 dc amps per hour. We all do not live in mountainous areas. In Texas, at 100 degrees a electric fridge will use a ton of electricity. Could be way over 100 amps per day.

In the Midwest air conditioning is a must. So, we typically plug in often.

Electric fridges are heat pumps. The heat is put in your kitchen.

Batteries are the weak link. Typically a rv with two marine batteries can only power the fridge 10 hours in the summer. A built in generator is a must if you plan to boondock. Or travel in the summer. Gas fridges run weeks on two bottles of propane.

Solar is a neat thing to own. Unfortunately solar panels have a reported output of 25 dc amps per day on their best day. Need about 6 or 8 on the roof. And lots of batteries. Tv’s do not recharge batteries well in fifth wheels. It is the wire that is an issue.

Electric fridges do not do so well in hot climates.

Modern rv’s use a ton of power. I am not a fan of adding an electric fridge.
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