Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-28-2024, 09:13 PM   #21
Senior Member
 
SailorSam20500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 5,054
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanMike View Post
I'm trying to figure out what magic they use on the power pole mounted unit that first switches on fan then after a short delay ramps up start of the compressor.

In a way the answer for me doesn't really matter as my MicroAir wont be going anywhere.
I don't think it tries to control the fan. It "simply" manages the high amperage surge that occurs when the compressor motor starts. Basically slowing down the power ramp up. The unit will affect anything in your RV that has a high surge power requirement. I'm not sure what the motor requirements are, but another appliance that could cause the amperage control would be a residential fridge.
__________________
Al
I am starting to think, that I will never be old enough--------to know better.
Tolerance will reach such a level that intelligent people will be banned from thinking so as not to offend the imbeciles. Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky, Russian Novelist
S.E. Mich. Flagstaff 26FKWS / 2022 F-150 3.5 EcoBoost SCrew Propride
SailorSam20500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2024, 09:19 PM   #22
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 9,572
Limiting current to the motors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SailorSam20500 View Post
I don't think it tries to control the fan. It "simply" manages the high amperage surge that occurs when the compressor motor starts. Basically slowing down the power ramp up. The unit will affect anything in your RV that has a high surge power requirement. I'm not sure what the motor requirements are, but another appliance that could cause the amperage control would be a residential fridge.
Do you really think that the motors will be able to start and reach a speed where they self-limit the current (due to the back emf effect), when operated from a current-limited source? I don't think so.

That's like saying "I'll operate this motor on limited power until it reaches full rotational velocity, then apply full power." It doesn't work that way--at least not unless you put a clutch on the motor and decouple the load until full velocity is reached. And then tell me--what happens when you release the clutch?
__________________
Larry
"Everybody's RV is not like your RV."
"Always take pictures with the button on the right."
"Always bypass the water heater before opening the low-point drains."
Sticks and Bricks: Raleigh, NC
2008 Cherokee 38P: at Ivor, VA permanently
Larry-NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2024, 10:02 PM   #23
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Central NJ
Posts: 1,013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry-NC View Post
Do you really think that the motors will be able to start and reach a speed where they self-limit the current (due to the back emf effect), when operated from a current-limited source? I don't think so.

That's like saying "I'll operate this motor on limited power until it reaches full rotational velocity, then apply full power." It doesn't work that way--at least not unless you put a clutch on the motor and decouple the load until full velocity is reached. And then tell me--what happens when you release the clutch?
I don't fully understand the details, but it has been tested to work and limit inrush current.

https://www.rvtravel.com/rv-electric...rtup-rvt-1060/

__________________
2020 Flagstaff Super Lite 26RBWS
Former: 2017 Rockwood MiniLite 2104S
2015 Silverado 2500HD 6.0L Gas
jimmarako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2024, 08:16 AM   #24
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Location: Tarpon Springs FL
Posts: 3,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry-NC View Post
Really? That's news to me.

I thought that the most commonly used device added a time delay relay to the compressor start circuit so that the power source didn't see the locked rotor inrush current of the fans AND the compressor at the same time. The fans (interior and exterior) begin running immediately and get up to speed and then the compressor is allowed to start. (Not a long delay, probably 5-10 seconds is sufficient.)

Is it different in Tarpon Springs?
WTH are you talking about now?
all I said hardstart can assist the standard capacitor .... no mention of fan delays or other stuff.
good hardstart kits come with relays and timer built in to maximize their OWN operation

Also gave link to OP can decide for himself if hardstart / softstart is something he wants to try.

In Tarpon...... we try not to confuse people with long draw out over technical stuff that none of us ordinary uneducated RV owners and non NC residents can understand.

-----------------------------------------------------
If I need to run my a/c using a small generator
I would try a hardstart first,
because I already got one and I am a cheap skate
the hard start never hurt my boat's a/c

other people chimed on on delays etc
which BTW ....
I agree turning loads on at slightly different times certainly would be a benefit to the generator

BUT I would turn fan etc on AFTER compressor to help even out the generator load..
I see no reason to even attempt to turn on a fan until cooling has begun.
Fan has lower power requirements so will be easier to turn on after compressor.


I switched my boat's a/c's water pump to a 12v to eliminate that load from the generator.
__________________
Tarpon Springs FL
2022 Salem 24RLXL
Aussieguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2024, 12:41 PM   #25
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: North of Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussieguy View Post
WTH are you talking about now?
all I said hardstart can assist the standard capacitor .... no mention of fan delays or other stuff.
good hardstart kits come with relays and timer built in to maximize their OWN operation

Also gave link to OP can decide for himself if hardstart / softstart is something he wants to try.

In Tarpon...... we try not to confuse people with long draw out over technical stuff that none of us ordinary uneducated RV owners and non NC residents can understand.

-----------------------------------------------------
If I need to run my a/c using a small generator
I would try a hardstart first,
because I already got one and I am a cheap skate
the hard start never hurt my boat's a/c

other people chimed on on delays etc
which BTW ....
I agree turning loads on at slightly different times certainly would be a benefit to the generator

BUT I would turn fan etc on AFTER compressor to help even out the generator load..
I see no reason to even attempt to turn on a fan until cooling has begun.
Fan has lower power requirements so will be easier to turn on after compressor.


I switched my boat's a/c's water pump to a 12v to eliminate that load from the generator.

Delay starting fan? Do you really know the purpose of the fan? When an RV A/C starts the fan is necessary to remove heat from condenser which can lower head pressure for easier compressor starting when unit is heat soaked. Delaying compressor start is preferred to reduce inrush versus delaying fan and then having even more heat and refrigerant pressure at compressor.

You probably got away with delaying fan start on your boat as since you mentioned A/C's water pump it's fairly safe to assume your system used a water cooled condenser.
TitanMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2024, 01:36 PM   #26
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussieguy View Post
WTH are you talking about now?
all I said hardstart can assist the standard capacitor .... no mention of fan delays or other stuff.
good hardstart kits come with relays and timer built in to maximize their OWN operation

Also gave link to OP can decide for himself if hardstart / softstart is something he wants to try.

In Tarpon...... we try not to confuse people with long draw out over technical stuff that none of us ordinary uneducated RV owners and non NC residents can understand.

-----------------------------------------------------
If I need to run my a/c using a small generator
I would try a hardstart first,
because I already got one and I am a cheap skate
the hard start never hurt my boat's a/c

other people chimed on on delays etc
which BTW ....
I agree turning loads on at slightly different times certainly would be a benefit to the generator

BUT I would turn fan etc on AFTER compressor to help even out the generator load..
I see no reason to even attempt to turn on a fan until cooling has begun.
Fan has lower power requirements so will be easier to turn on after compressor.


I switched my boat's a/c's water pump to a 12v to eliminate that load from the generator.
Microair turns the fan on first, then compressor, just sayin
latner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-29-2024, 05:04 PM   #27
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 9,572
Thanks for posting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmarako View Post
I don't fully understand the details, but it has been tested to work and limit inrush current.

https://www.rvtravel.com/rv-electric...rtup-rvt-1060/

Thanks for posting the links.

It was interesting to see that in one of the generations, the current limitation was applied to the start winding, something I had not thought about. The start winding only serves to get the motor spinning; the run winding syncs it to the power line. The start winding is only active for 300 milliseconds--less than a second, but it draws a high current.
__________________
Larry
"Everybody's RV is not like your RV."
"Always take pictures with the button on the right."
"Always bypass the water heater before opening the low-point drains."
Sticks and Bricks: Raleigh, NC
2008 Cherokee 38P: at Ivor, VA permanently
Larry-NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2024, 11:26 AM   #28
Senior Member
 
SailorSam20500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 5,054
For anyone interested, I just got an email from TechnoRV advertising a 15% off sale on both Softstart from Micro-Air (regular and blue tooth versions) and SoftStartRV by NetworkRV.
FWIW, blue tooth version is advertised as adding "diagnostic" capabilities.
__________________
Al
I am starting to think, that I will never be old enough--------to know better.
Tolerance will reach such a level that intelligent people will be banned from thinking so as not to offend the imbeciles. Fyodor Mikhailovich Dostoevsky, Russian Novelist
S.E. Mich. Flagstaff 26FKWS / 2022 F-150 3.5 EcoBoost SCrew Propride
SailorSam20500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2024, 07:33 PM   #29
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Posts: 71
Good info here. Thanks

And, I have seen a device on video where it lets the compressor start fully and then starts the fans. The compressor is not going to make significant heat in those seconds, so makes sense to start the fan after. This device had to be wired to the compressor and to the fan separately though, not just the AC unit as a whole. I think that specific one had the single fan motor.

Mine has two fans. I think just controlling the power to the entire unit is all that is needed for me.

So, the Coleman one at $180 or the microstart at $300.... hmmm
santasurfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2024, 07:44 PM   #30
Trailer Park Supervisor
 
NJKris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 8,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aussieguy View Post
WTH are you talking about now?
all I said hardstart can assist the standard capacitor .... no mention of fan delays or other stuff.
good hardstart kits come with relays and timer built in to maximize their OWN operation

Also gave link to OP can decide for himself if hardstart / softstart is something he wants to try.

In Tarpon...... we try not to confuse people with long draw out over technical stuff that none of us ordinary uneducated RV owners and non NC residents can understand.

-----------------------------------------------------
If I need to run my a/c using a small generator
I would try a hardstart first,
because I already got one and I am a cheap skate
the hard start never hurt my boat's a/c

other people chimed on on delays etc
which BTW ....
I agree turning loads on at slightly different times certainly would be a benefit to the generator

BUT I would turn fan etc on AFTER compressor to help even out the generator load..
I see no reason to even attempt to turn on a fan until cooling has begun.
Fan has lower power requirements so will be easier to turn on after compressor.


I switched my boat's a/c's water pump to a 12v to eliminate that load from the generator.
Impossible to turn on my fan AFTER the compressor kicks on. The Coleman unit (at least one I have), fans come on instantly, before compressor.
__________________
2019 Rockwood Geo Pro G19FD w/off road package
2015 Ford F150 XLT Super Cab 4x4 V8
Yes, I drink the water!
NJKris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2024, 07:47 PM   #31
Trailer Park Supervisor
 
NJKris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 8,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by santasurfer View Post
Good info here. Thanks

And, I have seen a device on video where it lets the compressor start fully and then starts the fans. The compressor is not going to make significant heat in those seconds, so makes sense to start the fan after. This device had to be wired to the compressor and to the fan separately though, not just the AC unit as a whole. I think that specific one had the single fan motor.

Mine has two fans. I think just controlling the power to the entire unit is all that is needed for me.

So, the Coleman one at $180 or the microstart at $300.... hmmm
Had Coleman made an aftermarket unit before I got my MicroAir, I would have definitely bought it for 180 bucks. Took Coleman long enough to catch up to the world using these things. If that was my company that failed to seize the opportunity years ago, heads would roll.
__________________
2019 Rockwood Geo Pro G19FD w/off road package
2015 Ford F150 XLT Super Cab 4x4 V8
Yes, I drink the water!
NJKris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2024, 07:49 PM   #32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 9,572
Thinking...

Quote:
Originally Posted by santasurfer View Post
Good info here. Thanks

And, I have seen a device on video where it lets the compressor start fully and then starts the fans. The compressor is not going to make significant heat in those seconds, so makes sense to start the fan after. This device had to be wired to the compressor and to the fan separately though, not just the AC unit as a whole. I think that specific one had the single fan motor.

Mine has two fans. I think just controlling the power to the entire unit is all that is needed for me.

So, the Coleman one at $180 or the microstart at $300.... hmmm
Thinking they all have two fans, one for the condenser coil (outside), and one for the evaporator coil (inside). The inside one is probably a squirrel cage (impeller).
__________________
Larry
"Everybody's RV is not like your RV."
"Always take pictures with the button on the right."
"Always bypass the water heater before opening the low-point drains."
Sticks and Bricks: Raleigh, NC
2008 Cherokee 38P: at Ivor, VA permanently
Larry-NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2024, 09:17 PM   #33
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Posts: 71
All my AC units until this last one have had one motor for both fans.
I think when he says one fan he really means one motor for both fans. A shaft goes through the wall to drive the one inside while the outside one is driven on the same shaft and the fan motor for that shaft is outside, both are squirrel cages.
The downside of this is that the condenser fan had to run if you wanted the inside/evap fan to run. On new ones the inside fan can keep running and the outside fan of course stops when the compressor stops and that saves a little energy and/or noise, or you run the inside fan on low-med-high and the outside fan goes as fast as it needs to go.

Of course, on one-motor-two fan models, if you want to operate the fan apart from the compressor you re-wire it wires go to fan, wires go to compressor; I guess two fan motor models can do this too. This would have been included in the installation instructions which none of us seem to have. Very possible on the ones that are able to do this, so IDK what AC you have, but on others the video did show the fan coming on after the compressor, which makes sense, the condenser is not instantly hot, it takes a few mins, so starting a fan a few seconds after is just fine. IDK how this is being discussed even.
The main objective, that I like, is that with no fans running your peak amp surge will be that much lower; let the compressor start from zero amps instead of 10 amps (or whatever amps it takes to run the fan(s). This gives an even lower peak amp so the little generators love it.
santasurfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2024, 11:02 PM   #34
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: North of Seattle, WA
Posts: 17,327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry-NC View Post
Thinking they all have two fans, one for the condenser coil (outside), and one for the evaporator coil (inside). The inside one is probably a squirrel cage (impeller).
Coleman Mach's have one motor with fan on one end of shaft and blower on other.

My new Furion has two separate motors, one for condenser fan and one for evaporator blower.
TitanMike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2024, 10:31 AM   #35
Trailer Park Supervisor
 
NJKris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 8,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanMike View Post
Coleman Mach's have one motor with fan on one end of shaft and blower on other.

My new Furion has two separate motors, one for condenser fan and one for evaporator blower.
Thank you, I did not know this. And Santasurfer also.
__________________
2019 Rockwood Geo Pro G19FD w/off road package
2015 Ford F150 XLT Super Cab 4x4 V8
Yes, I drink the water!
NJKris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2024, 10:53 AM   #36
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Posts: 71
I ordered the Coleman one. Was $100 cheaper and sounds like it will do what I need it to do.
Thanks for all input.
Will ck back when I run it.
santasurfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2024, 12:54 PM   #37
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJKris View Post
Had Coleman made an aftermarket unit before I got my MicroAir, I would have definitely bought it for 180 bucks. Took Coleman long enough to catch up to the world using these things. If that was my company that failed to seize the opportunity years ago, heads would roll.
I don't mind spending a little more to support an American made product/company.
latner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2024, 09:30 PM   #38
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Posts: 71
Installed the soft start with success. I made vids, and will work on them.
Very hard to tell now when the compressor kicks on. There is a little thud only. Other than the outside fan making a hum noise I cannot hear any new noises, just the hum of outside fan.
I have not tried it with the 2200 inverter generator but do not expect any issues.
The directions were spot on, easy to follow for anyone too. Other than cutting 3 wires and stripping one wire no electrical tools were needed. There were some nuts and screws to undo for the cover and fan, but that was easy. Everything had colors, so literally do this with the yellow wire, that with the white wire.... 4 wires total. No guess work on any step.

One of the easier projects I have done on RV.


The electrical box. All wires were color specific and the mother board is labeled on the Coleman, so super easy.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2024-03-08 at 9.28.48 PM.png
Views:	76
Size:	577.0 KB
ID:	297523  
santasurfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-08-2024, 10:36 PM   #39
Trailer Park Supervisor
 
NJKris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Northern NJ
Posts: 8,557
Glad the Coleman kit worked out for you! Thanks for followup. I'm sure your 2200w generator will do the trick, mine worked on a 2000w champion, 1750 running watts. The other A/C mod I just made since mine is a 'central blast' unit was installing the inner shroud with additional directional vents and bluetooth control. No more standing up in bed to try to adjust it in the middle of the night!
__________________
2019 Rockwood Geo Pro G19FD w/off road package
2015 Ford F150 XLT Super Cab 4x4 V8
Yes, I drink the water!
NJKris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2024, 11:49 AM   #40
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2023
Posts: 71
My mod was the opposite for the vents.
The interior shroud did nothing useful. It made more noise and hung down too low.
I removed it and just added a flat panel which is more quiet too. I relocated the controls to the wall. The temp sensor just hangs there, but is near ceiling so not going to likely be bumped or ripped out. I like it better. AC cools just the same.



Control on the wall. I extended all the wires, then covered with wire loom. Control is the silver box with two knobs.


Yes, my gen could handle the 9200 BTU AC before, even on eco mode, but that is bad to make compressor and generator struggle everytime the compressor kicks in, even on high idle it struggles. Wakes you up also, so this will keep the sound at a constant level.
Gen would not do a 13.5 AC, so is why I got the 9200.

Regrets are ever using a roof unit to begin with, but I had it when the build started so used it. I would prefer a $89 window unit stuck in a lower cabinet, something around 5000 btu, 3000 would be minimal, and then have more roof room for solar, more roof clearance for low branches, wind dynamics etc.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2024-03-09 at 11.44.13 AM.jpg
Views:	65
Size:	87.6 KB
ID:	297544   Click image for larger version

Name:	Screen Shot 2024-03-09 at 11.44.57 AM.jpg
Views:	65
Size:	66.2 KB
ID:	297545  
santasurfer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Forest River, Inc. or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:00 AM.