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Old 07-17-2021, 03:00 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikec557 View Post
I don't think I would pull any fuses because in real life boondocking we don't want to go to such extent.

If you open the breaker between the solar charge controller and the panels, you won't have to go on the roof to cover the panels. I'd also probably leave the SCC on, I don't think it draws from the battery and if it does, that's just one of the parasites we live with.

Our fridge came with 1 outside fan. In 105 degs in Boise it did not do enough. I added 2 more. They're on a thermostat but almost never turn off. I have a better thermostat I haven't installed yet.

No hurry on the test. Appreciate you taking the time to do it.
Too late; I've already pulled the fridge fuse. As for that, since the main point of the original test was to evaluate the fridge's power consumption, I wanted to completely eliminate it for comparison data.

Which is 0.7 Ah over 6 hours. So I think I'm safe in saying parasitic draw is 3 amps daily. Relatively trivial when compared to the fridge.

As for pulling the other fuses, my thought process is (was): What can I do if I'm on the cusp of not having enough power to finish out my night, trip, etc.? What non-essential devices and systems can I kill to avoid crossing that cusp and how much power will I save by killing? Now I know, even more trivial. I doubt I'll give myself that little margin of error with real-world battery use.

It makes sense to have a fuse or breaker somewhere along the solar panel/controller connection but it's not evident. It's certainly not in the front storage compartment where the controller is installed. The only fuse (10A) specifically mentioned in the owner's manual is between the controller and the battery. The specifications, however, list a "series fuse rating" of 5A.
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:08 PM   #22
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Nice report!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo K. View Post
[Sorry for the table formatting. I spent two hours monkeying with the *&$!@# table, first trying to embed an image from my Excel file using the Insert Image button and three different URLs (DropBox, Google Drive, and this forum's gallery). Then trying to paste the table itself. Then typing the values in manually here, with spaces added to create aligned columns. For the latter, the app thought it was smarter than I am and kept deleting extra spaces. ]
Jimbo, a year or two ago I fiddled around for an hour and finally found the secret for this. I posted it in the FORUM ADMIN section, but can't find that post. And "Show all posts by user" appears to stop at 500 posts for no good reason.

Intuitively, it would seem that you could set the font to Courier (or other monospaced font) and use spaces to line up the table. However, this ignores a basic tenet of HTML. Per the specification, any string of "white space" (spaces, tabs, newlines) will be reduced to exactly one space. Your carefully space-aligned table is delivered intact to the browser, and then collapsed. If you look at the HTML source (Ctrl-U in most browsers), you can see the spaces.

The HTML tag <CODE> alerts the browser to leave the alignment alone. You can't directly insert that tag, but using the either the editor's CODE, HTML, or PHP tags (at the top right, use #, <>, or [PHP] ) to wrap around your Courier-and-space table you can (finally) achieve the desired result.

Sadly, the editor uses a proportional-spaced font. So after you think you have the table aligned, use the Preview button (at the bottom) to inspect, then scroll down to the editor, tweak, and Preview again. Takes about three passes.

I'll do your table over.

Code:

Time      Voltage  SOC   Temp(F)
 9AM      12.76    100%  36
10AM      12.70     96%  34
11AM      12.67     93%  34
12PM      12.64     90%  35
 1PM      12.61     87%  36 
 2PM      12.54     83%  38 
 3PM      12.52     80%  39 
 4PM      12.43     76%  40
 5PM      12.39     71%  40
 6PM      12.31     66%  41
 7PM      12.21     60%  41
 8PM      12.11     54%  40
 8:30PM   12.06     50%  40
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:10 PM   #23
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That's interesting. But I'm not sure about the minute to minute, hour to hour data. Here's the three screens the phone app shows me. Does the display (that I don't look at) have additional data?
The minute to minute, hour to hour data displayed in the Trends chart reflects only data for when the phone is connected to the device. It apparently is not stored in the device's memory, or at least not retrievable by the app. The current and cumulative data, as well as historical highs and lows as displayed on the History page, are stored and retrievable.

It'd be nice to have the Trends chart reflect historical data, but the device will meet my needs for now. As compared to, say, the 712, it saves me the trouble of installing additional hardware for monitoring.
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:14 PM   #24
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Distance away from the device is exactly why I spent the extra $$ for the BMV712 over the Smart Shunt. Read many users in the Smart Shunt comments in the short distance, wanting to be able to read it from where I sit in our TT or outside with the phone app. Iím placing the monitor for it in the pass through where Iím mounting the shunt but can move it inside if need be.
That's what I do with the 712 now. Shunt is mounted in the pass through, I plug in the meter and lay it in a small cardboard box I have there for just that purpose.
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:21 PM   #25
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Too late; I've already pulled the fridge fuse. As for that, since the main point of the original test was to evaluate the fridge's power consumption, I wanted to completely eliminate it for comparison data.

Which is 0.7 Ah over 6 hours. So I think I'm safe in saying parasitic draw is 3 amps daily. Relatively trivial when compared to the fridge.

As for pulling the other fuses, my thought process is (was): What can I do if I'm on the cusp of not having enough power to finish out my night, trip, etc.? What non-essential devices and systems can I kill to avoid crossing that cusp and how much power will I save by killing? Now I know, even more trivial. I doubt I'll give myself that little margin of error with real-world battery use.

It makes sense to have a fuse or breaker somewhere along the solar panel/controller connection but it's not evident. It's certainly not in the front storage compartment where the controller is installed. The only fuse (10A) specifically mentioned in the owner's manual is between the controller and the battery. The specifications, however, list a "series fuse rating" of 5A.
Wow, that's a low Parasitic draw. I'm going to turn off my fridge fans and get a reading. But I suspect it may be the new InCommand system. Because of Murphy's Law, I'm not going to turn it off until we're at home and parked in front of the house. LOL. Probably a little over a week for that test..
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:29 PM   #26
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I have been considering a younger box at Harbor Freight that has a decent lockbut first want to see where my actual tongue weight is.

May this route in the interim since itís cheap and would be enough to send the burglar head to another TT. https://youtu.be/4bl_j3rmABQ

Yours certainly looks stealth!
Thanks!

I couldn't, still can't, find a metal box that will fit between my frame sides and hold two group 27. They were all so big I'd have to mount them on top of the frame sides. I do love that DIY strap video... though I'd have to paint them black. LOL. The guy in the video is right. The goal is to make it hard to steal. Or said differently. Make it easier for the thief to steal the batteries off another rig and leave your troublesome project alone.
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:29 PM   #27
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...
Awesome, Larry, thanks!

A good part of my two-hour monkeying session was searching the ADMIN section. I found a few threads that provided possible solutions, but none worked for me.

This forum seems to use some version of vBulletin. I discovered years ago when active in another forum that vBulletin offered an option of enabling [TABLE] tags. The process for the user to create a table, as I recall, was a little kludgy as you set up table parameters (rows & columns, at least) with their own tags, then enter data in between. A single typo could blow the whole thing, IIRC. But the end result was a clean looking table. Don't know if they still offer it and if it's something the administrators could enable. But it would help us nerds.
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:43 PM   #28
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Too late; I've already pulled the fridge fuse. As for that, since the main point of the original test was to evaluate the fridge's power consumption, I wanted to completely eliminate it for comparison data.

Which is 0.7 Ah over 6 hours. So I think I'm safe in saying parasitic draw is 3 amps daily. Relatively trivial when compared to the fridge.

As for pulling the other fuses, my thought process is (was): What can I do if I'm on the cusp of not having enough power to finish out my night, trip, etc.? What non-essential devices and systems can I kill to avoid crossing that cusp and how much power will I save by killing? Now I know, even more trivial. I doubt I'll give myself that little margin of error with real-world battery use.

It makes sense to have a fuse or breaker somewhere along the solar panel/controller connection but it's not evident. It's certainly not in the front storage compartment where the controller is installed. The only fuse (10A) specifically mentioned in the owner's manual is between the controller and the battery. The specifications, however, list a "series fuse rating" of 5A.
Thanks for doing the test for us.

Here's a picture of my two 30A breakers mounted just below the MPPT. The one located slightly higher than the other is for the solar panels on the roof. The lower one for the batteries on the tongue. It's sort of a visual reminder to me which is which.
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:44 PM   #29
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Update to my post, shown as #17, I canít edit it now so it should correctly read as a Tongue Box. Managed the typo without starting the day with a spicy Bloody Mary and I shouldnít type with thumbs on the phone while taking a break from cleaning the deck.

Sorry!
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Old 07-17-2021, 03:49 PM   #30
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Update to my post, shown as #17, I canít edit it now so it should correctly read as a Tongue Box. Managed the typo without starting the day with a spicy Bloody Mary and I shouldnít type with thumbs on the phone while taking a break from cleaning the deck.

Sorry!
LOL!
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Old 07-17-2021, 05:38 PM   #31
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... you can whack the Battle Born you're getting with a lot of charge very quickly via a quality LiFePO4 charger. 1-2 hours of generator time will most likely bring the battery back up to full with the right charger.
Sorry, overlooked this earlier. I didn't mention originally that along with the Battle Born I also ordered a Progressive Dynamics converter/charger to replace the stock WFCO unit.
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Old 07-18-2021, 03:34 AM   #32
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Adding a few hundred watts of solar power to your roof would solve a lot of problems.

I had to move my propane tanks forward a bit and build a support for my Harbor Freight tongue box, but it was well worth it. I changed out all of the locks on my trailer, including the tongue box one, so I only need 1 key. I don't have to worry about tongue weight with my Superduty. I put foam on top of my batteries and plywood on top of that, and have a place to store things like my sway control. These trailers were not designed for boondocking. The modern ones with electronic contols for everything are even worse. My old trailer with two golf cart batteries, 100 watt panel on the roof, and a portable 100 watt lets me camp indefinitely without power. I don't even take the generator anymore, but don't camp where it is hot. Our biggest issue is water, so I carry 50 gallons extra in the back of the truck.
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Old 07-18-2021, 05:48 AM   #33
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Amazing amount of "stuff" running all the time in some of these "campers." Convenience is expensive in terms of power consumption.

Just to add some comparative data the total amperage draw in my Roo hybrid with just the LP refrigerator running -- this is just the logic board and not dependent on cooling since that's provided by the gas -- is 0.25 amps including the overhead amperage used by the Trimetric 2020 amphour meter and any parasitic draws like the radio battery and LP detector.

The system can, in theory, run for over a month in this configuration although I've never tried it.

Demonstrates the difference in power use between Camping and camping.

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Old 07-24-2021, 05:38 PM   #34
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Battle Born battery and Progressive Dynamics converter were installed this week and the test was repeated. I'll skip trying to build another table and just report the highlights in a bulleted list.

The test again started at 9AM. This day was also mostly sunny but about 5-10 degrees cooler than the previous one. To try to come close to matching the camper's interior temperature with that of the previous test I left the rear ramp/door closed until late in the afternoon when interior temperature reached 95F. I logged data every three hours this time until bedtime and then again upon awakening the next morning. I also logged data at 8:30PM to compare with the first test and its 11.5 hour duration.

The three-hour intervals through the day showed a steady but slower drop in voltage and SOC, and fewer total amp-hours, than with the lead-acid battery. I'm sure that's due to the lower ambient temperature and, therefore, lower power demands.

I wasn't exactly sure when I would stop the test after I started it. I was hoping to run it for 24 hours or until 20% SOC or 12.9V (the voltage that corresponds with 20% SOC per Battle Born's spec sheet), whichever came first. But I didn't want the battery to drop to 0% (or worse!) overnight while I was asleep and not monitoring. So I decided that if it was below 50% at bedtime I would stop the test then. Otherwise I would check it while up for an almost certain nature call sometime overnight and then again upon getting up for good.

Key results:
  • 9AM: 14.46V, SOC 100%.
  • 8:30PM: 13.05V, 58%, total 41.8 Ah.
  • 10PM (approximate bedtime): 13.14V, 53%.
  • 4:45AM (nature call): 12.84V, 29%.
  • 6AM (up for good): 12.91V, 24%.
  • 8AM (test stopped): 12.82V, 19%, total 81 Ah.
The refrigerator temperature was between 36F and 40F at all data logging intervals.

It's interesting that on two occasions voltage actually increased a tiny amount while the SOC dropped. Maybe someone more familiar with lithium battery discharge behavior can explain. Or maybe it's a reporting error with the SmartShunt.

The clear conclusion is that I can easily boondock overnight for at least one night while running this refrigerator on a single 100 Ah lithium battery, with plenty of power left over for other small-draw devices.

Next is a real world test, though nowhere as detailed or structured as this. I leave on my next camping trip in two days, with two overnight campground stopovers on my way to my eventual destination. Both campgrounds have electrical hookups but I will try at least the first night to run on battery power alone. It's in West Virginia where the overnight low is forecast to be in the upper 50s, so I shouldn't need AC. Then while on the road the next day I'll stop and spot check battery voltage periodically to get a sense of how quickly the tow vehicle and the 50W solar panel combine to recharge the battery and whether it recharges completely.
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Old 07-24-2021, 06:24 PM   #35
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Is the fridge temp between 36-40 because you want it to be? Can you set it to run 35-38 instead? What's the freezer temp?
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Old 07-24-2021, 06:36 PM   #36
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Is the fridge temp between 36-40 because you want it to be? Can you set it to run 35-38 instead? What's the freezer temp?
There is no thermostat per se in this refrigerator. The control knob has four settings: Off, Cool, Cold, and Coldest. My tests were done with it set on Coldest.

The freezer wasn't tested this time because I found through preliminary testing and real world use that it reaches (after power-up) and maintains temperature better than the refrigerator. From my original post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo K. View Post
The freezer reaches proper temperature much faster and has been more consistent in maintaining it. In the same test as the refrigerator from 84F, a separate thermometer showed 8F in only two hours, 4F in three, and between 2F and -2F thereafter. In practice it always shows between 10F and -10F.
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Old 07-24-2021, 07:01 PM   #37
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Table

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo K. View Post
Key results:
  • 9AM: 14.46V, SOC 100%.
  • 8:30PM: 13.05V, 58%, total 41.8 Ah.
  • 10PM (approximate bedtime): 13.14V , 53%.
  • 4:45AM (nature call): 12.84V, 29%.
  • 6AM (up for good): 12.91V, 24%.
  • 8AM (test stopped): 12.82V, 19%, total 81 Ah.
Jimbo, here's the table:
Code:

Time                              Voltage SOC  Consumption
 9:00AM                           14.46V  100%
 8:30PM                           13.05V   58% 41.8 Ah thus far
10:00PM (approximate bedtime)     13.14V   53%  
 4:45AM (nature call)             12.84V   29%
 6:00AM (up for good)             12.91V   24%
 8:00AM (test stopped)            12.82V   19% 81 Ah total
The construct you describe, cell tags bounded by row tags bounded by table tags describe a GML or HTML table. I can do those in my sleep, but the BB system renders them raw because of the potential of damage by a rogue user.

Here's a sample:

HTML Code:
[FONT="Courier New"]
<table>
<r><th>Time</th>                   <th>Voltage</th><th>SOC</th><th>Consumption</th></r>
<r> <c> 9:00AM</c>                  <c>14.46V</c><c>100%</c>    <c> </c></r>
<r> <c> 8:30PM</c>                  <c>13.05V</c>   <c> 58%</c> <c>41.8 Ah so far</c></r>
<r> <c>10:00PM (approx. bedtime)</c><c>13.14V</c>   <c> 53%</c> <c> </c></r>
<r> <c> 4:45AM (nature call)</c>    <c>12.84V</c>   <c> 29%</c> <c> </c></r>
<r> <c> 6:00AM (up for good)</c>    <c>12.91V</c>   <c> 24%</c> <c> </c></r>
<r> <c> 8:00AM (test stopped)</c>   <c>12.82V</c>   <c> 19%</c> <c>81 Ah total</c></r>
</table>
[/FONT]
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Old 07-24-2021, 08:13 PM   #38
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Thanks once again, Larry!

Actually after the last table attempt I figured the easiest thing would be to attach an image at the end of the post instead of trying to embed it within the text. But I didn't take time to enter these latest data in Excel. Too busy prepping for my next trip!

The TABLE and related tags I was referring to use square brackets instead of angle brackets. (With a little Googling I found this description.) Curious: Does that matter in terms of functionality or vulnerability?
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Old 07-25-2021, 05:45 AM   #39
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It's hard to duplicate all the environmental conditions but you seem to have done a good job in this respect.

Nearly 85 amphours in a 24 hour period (extrapolated from your 24 hour data) is significant and shows that even a "small" draw of 3.5a quickly adds up. Another amp draw may shut the system down. I've used Lithium batteries in other applications and equalizing the charge in the internal cells takes special chargers that monitor the individual cells -- is it like this for this battery?

I'll be interested in what charge your vehicle can add to the battery since that system is designed to charge a battery with a lower voltage and typically outputs 13.7vDC based on the vehicle demands. What does your replacement converter/charger put out?

-- Chuck
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Old 07-25-2021, 08:18 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck_S View Post
It's hard to duplicate all the environmental conditions but you seem to have done a good job in this respect.

Nearly 85 amphours in a 24 hour period (extrapolated from your 24 hour data) is significant and shows that even a "small" draw of 3.5a quickly adds up. Another amp draw may shut the system down. I've used Lithium batteries in other applications and equalizing the charge in the internal cells takes special chargers that monitor the individual cells -- is it like this for this battery?

I'll be interested in what charge your vehicle can add to the battery since that system is designed to charge a battery with a lower voltage and typically outputs 13.7vDC based on the vehicle demands. What does your replacement converter/charger put out?

-- Chuck
Re. environment: Thanks. I tried to replicate the conditions of test #1 (LA battery) with test #2 (lithium), as much as my equipment and nature would allow. But ambient temperatures on both days were considerably higher than I would ever be camping in without AC.

I was struck by the 18% drop in the refrigerator's power consumption (51 vs. 41.8 Ah at the 11.5 hour mark) with just the 5-10 degree difference in outdoor temps. And the difference was only for the first few hours before the trailer's interior temperature in test #2 (without the ramp/door open) climbed into the mid-90s. Makes me wonder how much more power reduction I'll see in realistic AC-free boondocking conditions. I'll find out about that, at least during an overnight segment, next week.

It also makes me think that this refrigerator and/or its enclosure in the trailer are rather poorly insulated.

The Battle Born's built-in BMS balances the cells with each charge cycle.

I will post here how recharging goes after my night of boondocking. Might be a few days; the campgrounds I'm staying in don't have wi-fi. Realizing the voltage limitation of my TV, maybe the solar panel will provide the final boost needed for 100% SOC, weather permitting.

The PD converter/charger is rated at 55 amps, same as the WFCO it replaced, although this PD model is designed specifically for lithium batteries. After I finished test #2 and plugged the trailer into shore power, a brief glance at the SmartShunt app showed current inflow at about 45 amps.
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