Winegard Air 360+ question

[aray]

I recently bought a new Freedom Express 192RBS. It came standard with a Wineguard Air 360+ rooftop mounted antenna.

It works well for pulling in digital TV signals and AM/FM radio, also all standard of course.

However as I was putting the RV up in storage after the last time out, I noticed something I hadn't seen before. On the inside roof of the camper, I noticed a round plate mounted in the roof. It had the traditional WiFi symbol embossed on the plate. Looking at the Wineguard URL for this product (https://winegard.com/products/am-fm-...360-plus-black) it's clear that this antenna is capable of supporting 4G LTE & WiFi capabilities.

But my question is: how?

This wasn't covered in my dealer's PDI. The sad little manual included with my new RV package wasn't much help either, nor was the URL cited above. The website does mention a Wineguard Gateway, which appears to be an optional 4G LTE WiFi router. I'm assuming that wasn't included in the standard build, but I'm not sure, as normally I'd expect a coax cable input to a router, as well as a 110 outlet for power. The roof face-plate seems WAY too small for that, but seems consistent with perhaps a small antenna hidden underneath.

In addition, where would I add a SIM card to the Wineguard Air 360+? Do I have to crawl up on the roof for that?

I didn't have time to figure out how to get the face-plate off and see what was underneath, as I was pressed for time. I'm hoping someone else has a similar configuration and has already figured out how to take full advantage of the hardware present.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Ray

[Lgortman]

Did you figure this out? I just had this system installed on my FR Georgetown XL and I'm trying to determine the best data plan for the wifi router that requires a SIM.

I see good and bad reviews on the Air 360/Gateway router. I'm having mine professionally installed and all customers that I spoke with were very happy with their overall system.

[aray]

Yes, I did get it figured out. Once I removed the faceplate on the ceiling I discovered five wires: two were 18 gauge wire for power and ground (but see below about problems with those) and three were very tiny coax antenna wire connectors. Some of my observations:

• I went with the AT&T plan, as my cell phone provider is Xfinity, which rides on the Verizon network. I can already use my phone as a WiFi hotspot, so going with AT&T gives me cell tower provider diversity. The SIM goes inside of the optional Gateway unit, installed on the ceiling in place of the faceplate I discovered earlier.
• Once plugged in and working, the Winegard app lets you point the Gateway (using the antennas in the roof-mounted Air 360+) towards local WiFi signals or towards cellular LTE signals. The roof-mounted antennas are higher, larger, and more powerful than anything available on a cell phone inside of the RV. In addition, Winegard has been making professional antennas for decades; they designed and built the antennas on the Apollo 11 spacecraft for example.
• In my case the RV builder (Freedom Express) did NOT connect the power lines to the power available in the 360+. So I had to run 12V DC power to the Gateway separately. Grrr.
• Freedom Express also did not properly locate my 360+ antenna on the roof, which in turn means the hole in the ceiling was too close to my slide. Had I installed the Gateway directly under the hole, I would not have been able to open my slide. Instead I had to move the Gateway foward in my RV by about two inches.
• But, other than those two issues, I'm happy with my Winegard Gateway.

Ray

[david_reaves]

Aray, how has your experience been with the Winegard 360+ Gateway? I'm thinking off adding the gateway to my 360+. Is your AT&T as specific hotspot data plan, or did you just use a normal "phone" SIM? Thanks!

David

[aray]

No, it's not a normal phone SIM for two reasons: 1) today's phones use tiny SIMs whereas the Gateway uses the older, larger, clunkier standard SIMs. AT&T had to go in their back room and pull out one of the older style SIMs. I suppose you could use an adapter to convert up, but that still leaves 2) based on my conversations with AT&T they code, or tag, SIMs inside their internal databases for certain purposes. (This is likely true of other cell carriers as well.) Cell phone plans and SIMs expect voice, text, and data. You can't use one of those. I had to get a data-only plan, and a SIM associated with one of those plans.

One of the nice things about their data-only plans is that you can go prepaid, pay for a month at a time, then if you stop camping for a while, you can stop paying on the plan and save yourself money. That's what I'm doing right now. It's too cold to camp and my RV is in storage. So I'm simply not paying for data that I can't use, and thus save money. There is a limit to that; I think it's like 90 days if I recall correctly. So one time over this winter I had to pay for a month I knew I wouldn't use just to keep the plan alive and the SIM alive. But now it's fallow again. I'll reactivate it shortly, as I'm going to be pulling the RV out of storage next month, at which point I'll turn the Gateway / AT&T plan back on again. Now you can avoid all of that and let the plan completely die, but the consequences are you have to go back to the AT&T store, sign up for a new plan, get a new SIM (and associated phone number the carrier uses to communicate with the modem), and then swap the SIMS out inside of the Gateway. I'd rather not do that, and for me it was worth $25 bucks (the cost of one month of data with the plan I picked) to just keep it alive over the winter months. (Keep in mind you get 90 day before (from the last time you used it) to 90 days after (after the one winter bridge-month) to keep the plan active.

Quite frankly I love it. As I said above, if I can get good cell coverage on my phone, I often use that as a hot spot, as my phone carrier (Comcast that rides the Verizon towers) has an unlimited data plan option that I selected. However in areas where the Verizon towers are weak or nonexistent, it's awesome to have the Winegard 360+ roof-mounted antenna and the partnered Gateway Wi-Fi acting as a hot spot inside my camper. Tower/carrier diversity is the way to go.

FYI AT&T just rolled out some new data-only plans. Before I renew/reactive next month, I'll have a chat with the AT&T reps about the subtle nuances of the terms and conditions on the new plans, and might consider moving to a slightly different plan. You can swap between them monthly if you like.

I hope that helps. Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Ray

[dedobias]

The gateway is $300 and a very dated modem/router that only works in the 2.4 ghz range and not the faster 5ghz. When 5G become more available, it won't be able to do it, it is only 4g. Personally I'll wait for someone to find a way to utilize the antenna connections to a better modem/router. Anyone know of someone who has sorted that out?

Side note, I'm using my Onstar which has a better antenna and more power than a phone hotspot with a wifi repeater.

[aray]

There's no question that Gateway doesn't support 5G, but 5G isn't everywhere yet. Heck, most current cell phones today can't even take advantage of 5G even if the user is in one of the covered areas ("current" being defined as "in use" vs. "available for purchase").

The carriers started rolling out 5G in the high-density urban areas first, then expanded along the major transportation hubs (e.g. interstates). They're still in the multi-year process of building this out. They obviously prioritized coverage to areas where most of their customers live, work, or commute first.

It's going to take years before 5G comes to all or most of the very rural areas, which is where a lot of us like to camp.

Furthermore, even if you have a 5G device, and are within an area covered by 5G towers, you might not see much better performance than LTE. The real fast stuff, with low latency, is going to be at the millimeter-wave (20-60 GHz) frequencies. The problem with mmWave is that, due to the high frequencies, the signals don't travel as far, or penetrate through buildings or in some cases even windows. You'll have to be very close to a transmitter to get any benefit from some of the 5G bands.

Bottom line: I don't want to wait years before I can improve upon my internet experience where I camp, in the rural areas. And even when it comes, I might still be too far away to take advantage of the true benefits of 5G. The Gateway helps me now, and is a worthwhile upgrade over my phone's hot spot, or even some of the available dedicated hot spots on the market today, especially when you look at the cost/benefit aspects of the dedicated hot spot plans (on tethering limits, for example).

Besides, this is a never-ending game. We've already gone through 3G, LTE, 5G, etc. At some point you have to snap the chalk-line and buy something, whether that something is a modem/router, or a phone, or a laptop ... knowing the instant that you do it will be out of date tomorrow.

Your mileage may vary. It really depends on where you camp, the frequency and duration of your camping trips, how much you access the internet, how you want to do that, the amount of bandwidth you need, whether your constraints are on data to your end-use device or the ability of your antenna to see & connect to a remote cell tower, etc. No one answer is going to be right for all people, of course.

Ray

[david_reaves]

Ray,

Thanks for the detailed response. AT & T just announced that they are killing 3G data, roughly 20 years after it was introduced. If a similar timeline carries through, I should have an adequate life for a 4G router with this camper. I will probably add a data only line to my AT&T account. My wife already uses Verizon for her phone-- for the same reason you described initially, different towers and signal strengths in different places.

On a separate, but conceptually similar note, I do wish camper manufacturers would include Blu-ray players rather than DVD. Many will say, "Just use digital" but we have a pretty good collection of Blu-ray disks and it takes time to rip all those to files. I think Furrion and Jenson and whoever else should be able to switch at minimal cost to the final product.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

[aray]

David,

I grabbed a few screenshots of my plan to illustrate a few instructive points.

The first image shows the amount I'm paying now for my data. Data plans, much like phone (voice/text/data/tethering) plans, change all the time, so view what I'm paying now as illustrative.

Currently on my plan, I'm paying $25/mo. for 3 GB worth of data. And while that's a higher dollars to gigs of data ratio than what one can find on phone plans, or some hot spot plans, keep in mind this AT&T data-only plan is prepaid and on-demand. That is to say, within limits, I can start it or stop it at will.

Want data? Pay the bill. Not camping? Don't pay the bill and save your money. Viewed from that perspective, and with the costs amortized over an entire year, you might save some money. It depends on how much data you need and how frequently you camp, including during the cold winter months where it's nice to be able to effectively suspend the plan.



To drill down on that, notice the Payment Due Date, above. It says Now. But that's not really the case. If you click on the link Balance & Details that's underneath the $25.00 number, it will take you to the following page, in the image down below. As you can see there, the real due date for renewal is underneath the Balance Expires on ? line, which in my case is May 2nd. That's 90 days from the last time I renewed this plan (which was at the start of February). I have up to May 2nd to pay $25 and start a new month, or let it fully expire and walk away. The consequences of full expiration are what I described above, i.e. getting a new SIM card from AT&T and swapping that out in the Gateway. I usually just pay the bill to begin another 30 day window of data and another 90 day window of plan life. Since I don't camp every summer month, and don't camp at all over the winter months, the ability to start and stop my bill a la carte is attractive to me.



When I first got the Gateway, AT&T had three plans: $25 for 3 GB, $50 for 25 GB, and $75 for 40 GB. Now, they've added additional plans shown below:



It looks like if you buy a whole year in advance, for $300, you get 20 GB every month, which works out to $25 per month for 20 GB. I'd rather not pay for months I don't use for camping, so that plan is not for me.

Another new plan is $35 for 15 GB. I might switch to that in the future, sometimes, depending on if I think I'm going to have a higher monthly data demand than is normal for me. It's only 10 bucks more for 5x the amount of data I've paid for in the past. But I need to chat with them to understand the new label on the plan "MHS/Tab". What does that mean? Dunno for now. I want to be sure that I can swap back to the $25 plan if I think I only need a little bit of data in some camping month. So far, AT&T has allowed its customers to move between plans freely each time you reactivate any particular month.

The final new plan, $30 for 2 GB of data, simply makes no sense. It's more money for less data. I have no idea why they would even introduce such a lame plan; it's a step backwards from what I have now.

A few final points:

First, if you want to stream endless hours of Netflix, Amazon Prime, Roku, etc. through the Gateway, none of these plans are right for you. But that's a problem we all face with any carrier on any device. See the Mobile Internet Resource Center for more details on that, located here: https://www.rvmobileinternet.com/

Second, the AT&T plan lets me turn their Stream Saver feature on or off at will, to conserve data available. Stream Saver attempts to automatically identify video streams, and if on, throttles them back to 480p. That's usually good enough for me, it's my default setting, but I can turn it off whenever I like.

Third, there are no funky tethering limitations hidden in the fine print of the terms and conditions of the plan, like you often see on phone plans. These plans and their associated SIMs are constructed in advance knowing that you'll be streaming to other devices, and don't therefore further inhibit tethering in any ways.

Finally, I do NOT have AutoPay active on my plan. One of the biggest features of this plan is my ability to suspend payments and save money when I don't need the data, so AutoPay would thwart that goal.

I hope that helps you. I have no connections to Winegard or to AT&T, I just want to provide additional data that may be useful to you all. As I said, no one plan or device is going to meets the needs of every camper. But I'm thrilled with the performance of the Winegard 360+ antenna in pulling in weak signals from remote cell towers, the Gateway is sufficient for my needs at LTE speeds, and the current AT&T data-only prepaid with on demand payment plans are the best I've found for now, and I hope that they improve that even further down the road.

Best wishes and happy camping,

Ray

[dedobias]

I agree with regarding 5g. I would just like to have something more readily available for both wifi and 4g use. I've read multiple reviews that their router significant throttles speed on both wifi and 4g.

[dedobias]

I plan on using this for work, not just pleasure. I need to get the max speed for the corporate VPN use with meetings and large downloads and uploads. I agree the antenna is great. But the router and their software are reported to be very flaky. That is why I want to figure out if there is an alternative router/modem that can use the antenna connections with adapters.

[dedobias]

There is a possibility, WInegard will provide a new "gateway" but no one knows when.

[david_reaves]

Originally Posted by dedobias

I plan on using this for work, not just pleasure. I need to get the max speed for the corporate VPN use with meetings and large downloads and uploads. I agree the antenna is great. But the router and their software are reported to be very flaky. That is why I want to figure out if there is an alternative router/modem that can use the antenna connections with adapters.

Work is why I'm considering the Winegard 360+ Gateway. My wife is a CPA and does her business from a home office. With reliable Internet, she can work from anywhere. That allows us to travel with the camper-- her office is the dining table. In her case, she doesn't do video calls all that much, but does have substantial data transfer since her accounting software and tax software are both cloud-based. Even her "local" work paper files have cloud-based backup, so Internet is required and it needs to be consistent.

Ray, thanks for the extra info on the prepaid plan. To me, the annual plan looks like a pretty good deal. Pre-Covid we would often camp at least once a month. Normally, there are a couple of two-week trips during the year, too. For her to be able to continue to work and communicate with clients while we are in the woods, at the beach, or in the mountains is easily worth $25 a month. I appreciate the work for such a detailed reply. It's good information to have as a decision variable.

David

[dedobias]

One of my options is use my onstar wifi and connect to the trailer. Onstar is 5 watts send versus 1 watt for a cell phone hotspot and it has a much better antenna for the receive side than a cellphone. This guys closing remarks are that the Winegard eats about half the connected wifi speed for some odd reason. Obviously if there is good wifi available, it is cheaper than using the cellular paid data. I have a wifi booster and plan on trying it at some more remote locations to see how it works. ON a side note, I haven't been able to find transmit wattage for the Winegard yet..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iUPJdz0f7E

[aray]

Thanks for all of your replies. I'm enjoying the discussions. Here are a few comments and additional details in response.

First, I haven't observed any throttling by the router in the Gateway. While, as I stated above my normal default setting is Stream Saver at 480p, I have streamed some 1080p videos successfully in my camper without any downgrading any of the quality and/or without buffering issues. Now I haven't tried to stream a two-hour movie that way to be sure, that would eat up more bandwidth than I want, but I certainly have watched multiple 5-10 minute 1080p YouTube videos with no problems. Obviously I can't prove a negative; all I can share is my own experiences.

Consequently I'd assume the Gateway would be more than sufficient to support a VPN for work, to a phone or a laptop. The Gateway might choke on 4K quality, but I don't need that, don't have a TV that supports that, and can't afford the bandwidth charges anyway. If you're uploading or downloading large files for work in addition to that, well as stated it is only going to run at LTE speeds. But that's not too bad because as I also said above, the chances of getting a 5G signal in a campground are also remote, for the foreseeable future anyway.

I haven't heard that Winegard is planning to come out with new version of the Gateway, but that would be nice if true. Science marches on after all. Since I already have the current model and it meets all of my needs, I probably wouldn't upgrade, but it would be very nice for new purchasers.

One thing I hope they do if they come out with a new Gateway is to upgrade the software. Winegard may have some of the best EE and RF engineers in antenna design (as I stated in a previous post, Winegard has been around a long while and they were selected to design some of the antennas on the Apollo spacecraft that went to the moon) however their software leaves a bit to be desired. Hopefully with their acquisition of WiFiRanger last year and their acquisition of SilverLeaf Electronics this year, they will be importing some software talent.

Specifics on software (after the initial one-time software setup): It takes a few minutes for the Gateway to boot. Then you need to pair the app on your phone to the Gateway. That takes another minute or two. Sometimes more than a minute or two, as the most "flaky" part of the software I've observed is I occasionally I have to try multiple attempts to get it to pair to the app on my phone. (Pro tip: I've found the pairing is much more reliable if you turn BOTH WiFi and Bluetooth on initially, otherwise it sometimes has problems pairing. Once paired, you can turn Bluetooth off again on your phone.) After you've paired your phone app, you have to point the Gateway to either cellular as a source or some local WiFi signal as the source, each time you start it, there is no default setting there. Start to end, it's usually about 4-5 minutes to get the thing going each time I setup camp in a new location. Fortunately, once set, it works great, but a good software engineer could easily redesign the user interface to improve things substantially.

I haven't experienced any reliability problems past the initial setup, but I can't dispute the experiences of others who say they have. I can only speculate that if the Winegard antenna is trying to pull in an extremely weak signal from a very remote source that perhaps it, like any antenna at its design limits, might occasionally drop the connection, in which case you'd have to reinitialize it again like you do when you start each camping trip.

It would also be great if someone else came out with a device that can utilize the Winegard antenna but replaces the Gateway router. Alas I doubt that will happen, as the protocol that connects the Winegard with the Gateway is likely proprietary and not released by the company.

Power output of the Gateway? Dunno. All I can say is I get a very strong signal anywhere within my RV & camping site, and my phone & laptop can see the WiFi signals of many other campers in the area, many of whom never change the SSID name of their Gateway units, so I know they too are using Gateways. Onstar might be better for you if you need far-reach around the campgrounds.

As for the video, he raises some good points. It's certainly true that some of the local AT&T store employees had no idea what this thing was, but I attribute that to inexperience of some of the local staff. I took the box and the Gateway with me to several Verizon and AT&T local stores when I was window-shopping for plans. Some of the more experienced staff were able to help me; some of the younger "kids" didn't have a clue.

Unlike the guy in the video, I rarely try to connect my Winegard/Gateway combo to the local camp WiFi. Like hundreds of other postings in this forum, I've found them to be overloaded by other campers and of little value. So my usage is most commonly when I need to go cellular, and also when there is little to no Xfinity cellular in the area (Xfinity/Comcast riding the Verizon towers is my mobile cell phone plan.)

Also in my case, the Winegard 360+ was preinstalled by Freedom Express at the factory. All I needed to do, unlike the guy in the video with a Winegard Connect 2.0, was put in the Gateway. I also wonder how much of the issue he discussed could be attributed to the 360+ vs. the Connect 2.0, and how much to the Gateway itself? It sorta sounds like to me that he's describing antenna amplification tradeoffs, not Gateway router problems.

Re: his comments about speed reductions on a poor WiFi signal, the next time I'm in my camper I'll try to remember to run a speed test, and let everyone know what I see. However keep in mind that's likely to vary from campsite to campsite, depending upon their signal strength, how many other campers are using it, and the limits the campsite imposes on bandwidth But as I said above, I rarely use it to amplify campground WiFis; I mostly use it to amplify 4G/LTE signals and he agrees that "it rocks" for that.

I'm not trying to be a shill for this company. I'm certain it isn't right for everyone. But it works well for me.

I hope this helps.

Ray

[dedobias]

Great response Ray, Thank YOU. For a wifi test, connect to your home wifi and run a speed test. Then connect to your home wifi through the Winegard gateway and repeat it. The speed really shouldn't change much. You will be stressing the wifi more than usual because most non-home wifi is not as great.. That is really the portion of the antenna I want to use with other wifi. BY the way, the 360+ is just an antenna with antenna connections that go to the gateway. The gateway has everything else. So an alternate router/modem is possible with right antenna adapters. Trying to find a bithead in that field.

[dedobias]

Well I found the info. The antenna cables are MCX male which plug into MCX female on the gateway. The yellow and green are the 4gLTE, the red is the wifi antenna.

Here is more info. Using the netgear at the bottom link you need a female MCX to male TS9 adapter - there is also a link. Now you have latest router/modem combo that can use multiple carriers.


The cellular is a 2x2 MIMO antenna

The page for the gateway. Manual attached.
https://winegard.com/products/cellul...ateway/gateway

They fuzzy up the diagram so you can't see the connectors clearly

This gu shows the antenna connectors a little more clearly in the gateway.
Completely Connected with Winegard's Air 360+ Gateway | RVRC

Completely Connected with Winegard's Air 360+ Gateway | RVRC
In this free video lesson Dave Solberg teaches you how to install the Winegard Gateway, which amplifies your RV’...


https://www.rvrepairclub.com/video/w...teway-018965/#

This guy actually tells what the connectors are!!!!

Cool this actually somewhat confirms my suspicion that there is nothing weird or proprietary about the Winegard 360+ antennas on Keystones. You are right there are MCX male connectors where the two LTE and WiFi antenna terminate in the camper but those are easy to change out or adapt to SMAs or TS-9s. The ones installed on Keystones sound the same as the one you bought aftermarket. Mine is stated to have the broad spectrum FM/VHF/UHF antenna, plus the two 4G antennas and the single WiFi antenna; also has the mount for the Winegard gateway. The FM and TV signal wires route to the TV/SAT panel already and the others terminate in the ceiling behind a cap, also zip tied to a 12v cable I can tap into (which added bonus, keystone published their color coded and numbered wiring specs so I will be able to tell exactly where that 12v wire runs.)

So digging deeper into the connectors on the NEtgear Night hawk - it uses TS9 male connectors and the antenna is a MCX male. TS9 is used by most of the modem/router manufacturers Here is the adapter!!!
MCX Female to TS9 Male RF Cable Assembly

MCX Female to TS9 Male RF Cable Assembly
MCX Female to TS9 Male Coax Cable, RG316/RG316D/RG174/LMR100
MCX Female to TS9 Male RF Cable Assembly


Here is the Netgear

6 Best 4G/LTE Mobile Router Models with WiFi (MiFi) and SIM Slot in 2021

https://www.tech21century.com/best-4..._4G_LTE_Router

[david_reaves]

Looking at the Nighthawk the one thing is doesn't seem to do is WiFi boost. Having that available to conserve cellular data when WiFi is available and performing reasonably would be ideal. I'll admit, I also like the fact that the Winegard Gateway is configured to mount so seamlessly. The RV Repair Club video was excellent, thanks. Looks like I will have to spend some more time looking and comparing options. The connector information is a very helpful bit of research that I won't have to repeat!

[aray]

Yes, dedobias, well done on your research. That was an excellent piece of detective work. Thanks!!

I'd be very interested to hear if you or David or anyone else successfully integrates a better router with the Winegard Air 360+.

Please keep us informed!

Ray

[aray]

David,

For your particular use case, with your wife's cloud-based CPA work being your main requirement, in my opinion the Gateway is still a viable option for you, even with the comments made on the video. Consider the following scenarios:

No WiFi at all in the area? Then you have absolutely no choice but to rely on cellular, and everyone agrees the Winegard Air 360+ antenna works great. (The video guy says "it rocks" and I agree). The AT&T annual plan, which works out to 20 GB/mo. for $25/mo. is the cost of your wife doing business reliably. (Whereas I chose the a la carte turn on/off plan to save some money.)

Strong WiFi at the campground or other local source? Then your best bet here is to directly connect to that strong signal, avoiding the Winegard/Gateway combo (which isn't needed here), and get the best bandwidth possible.

Weak or remote WiFi signal? Then I believe the the Winegard/Gateway is your best choice. Let that world-class Winegard antenna, up high on your roof, snap down rock solid like alligator jaws on that weak signal, boost it up, and then your wife can have a reliable WiFi signal through your Gateway router. Looks like you might pay in reduced bandwidth to be sure, but if the option is no connectivity, or a connection that keeps dropping in and out, I'd pick the option that keeps me going, not one that fails or is nonexistent. It's a reasonable trade-off, to my mind.

As I already said, I have tested the Winegard/Gateway WiFi booster when I first got my unit last year, and it did work. Indeed I think I picked up the presence of every campers' WiFi signals across the entire campground! I remember being amazed at how many new SSIDs I saw when I turned it on! I didn't run a speed test, to be sure, but the ability of the Winegard to see and to amplify weak and/or distant WiFi signal sources is not in doubt.

Again, this still might not be the right solution for you, but I wanted to throw those use cases out there in case it is of value to you or to others.

Ray