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Old 03-31-2020, 06:11 PM   #21
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Do you have the 360 or the 360+? Just curious, because we live in between Rochester and Syracuse, and can pull in stations from both locations. We have the + version. I'm disappointed that it does not have AM radio reception, and I'm planning on replacing it with the standard 360 version. We don't care about the $300 wifi router they sell for it.
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Old 04-01-2020, 12:00 AM   #22
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I conveyed to the FCC in 2009 after the analog to digital switch that I had lost most of my over the air channels and would hate to see a national emergency and not be informed because I lost most of my channels. I was told to buy a better antenna. To this day (of 63 years of being born) I've never understood why I needed to buy something to continue to watch TV because of an all or nothing signal. Ham radio that I can talk across the world isn't this sensitive.

Over and out,

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Old 04-01-2020, 12:02 AM   #23
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Those who don't adapt to inevitable changes, are left behind.....
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Originally Posted by mikes86gn View Post
I conveyed to the FCC in 2009 after the analog to digital switch that I had lost most of my over the air channels and would hate to see a national emergency and not be informed because I lost most of my channels. I was told to buy a better antenna. To this day (of 63 years of being born) I've never understood why I needed to buy something to continue to watch TV because of an all or nothing signal. Ham radio that I can talk across the world isn't this sensitive.

Over and out,

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Old 04-01-2020, 12:44 AM   #24
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Brian, you did realize that UHF used to be channels 14-83 but no longer is, right?

It's now only 14-36 and 38-50.

Wikipedia says
"Channel 37 was never used in the US and some other countries in order to prevent interference with radio astronomy.[3] In 1983, the US FCC removed channels 70 through 83 and reassigned them to Land Mobile Radio System. In 2009, with the move to digital television complete in the US, channels 52 through 69 were reallocated as the 700 MHz band for cellular telephone service. In 2011, Channel 51 was removed to prevent interference with the 700 MHz band. The US UHF channel map now includes channels 14 through 36 and 38 through 50."



Yes, I do realize that..., but that is not the point. I guess I worded it poorly.


For whatever channel you are trying to pull in, on whatever Real Channel (not Virtual Channel, the Virtual Channel doesn't matter... only the Real Channel) the signal itself still behaves just as it would have, and did, in the Analog days.

The signal propagation on Real Channel X Digital is exactly the same as the propagation of Channel X when TV was analog (back when there were no "virtual channels"), assuming that there were no changes made to the transmitter, or it's antenna.

It makes no difference at all whether the data being broadcast on a channel is Analog, or Digital, because the data does not control the behavior of the carrier. That is why your old TV antenna that worked just fine when OTA TV was analog still works just fine for OTA Digital TV that we have today, assuming you have a UHF antenna. There is absolutely no such thing as a DIGITAL HD specific antenna... it is just marketing bull****.

Now, that is not to say that the equipment RECEIVING the signal will behave the same. They won't. Multipath interference, which caused the "ghosting" in analog TV, was annoying, but usually tolerable, up to a point. Not so with Digital... even just a little bit of Multipath interference will wipe out most Digital receivers, because they cannot correctly process the 2 different data streams caused by the multipath interference. There is lots to read about all this if you want!


And with all the re-allocations of channels, you will find that almost all of the TV stations are now broadcasting on Real Channels in the UHF band, even though they may be using Virtual Channels that used to be VHF channels.
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Old 04-01-2020, 05:21 AM   #25
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Those who don't adapt to inevitable changes, are left behind.....
It's not a matter of left behind as much as shoved down your throat. It's obvious you've never been directly involved with the setup, running, and repair of electronics. I was lucky enough to start in 1978 with PLC's running a welding fixture bigger then most peoples homes. It's now a world of if it doesn't have a processor it's not a good product. I love getting in my wife's new car and after putting my foot on the brake and pushing the start button I need to turn the radio off ...again. It was off when I turned the car off so I guess I need to adapt that I need the radio to turn on at about half volume to remind me to turn it off again. Left behind? How about refuse to adapt.

Mike
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Old 04-01-2020, 05:29 AM   #26
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It's not a matter of left behind as much as shoved down your throat. It's obvious you've never been directly involved with the setup, running, and repair of electronics. I was lucky enough to start in 1978 with PLC's running a welding fixture bigger then most peoples homes. It's now a world of if it doesn't have a processor it's not a good product. I love getting in my wife's new car and after putting my foot on the brake and pushing the start button I need to turn the radio off ...again. It was off when I turned the car off so I guess I need to adapt that I need the radio to turn on at about half volume to remind me to turn it off again. Left behind? How about refuse to adapt.

Mike
Hey Mike, if you read the manual you will find a simple setting that should leave the radio in it's last state when you restart. You can set it to be on or off if you left it off.
Good luck.
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Old 04-01-2020, 08:05 AM   #27
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Yes, I do realize that..., but that is not the point. I guess I worded it poorly.


For whatever channel you are trying to pull in, on whatever Real Channel (not Virtual Channel, the Virtual Channel doesn't matter... only the Real Channel) the signal itself still behaves just as it would have, and did, in the Analog days.

The signal propagation on Real Channel X Digital is exactly the same as the propagation of Channel X when TV was analog (back when there were no "virtual channels"), assuming that there were no changes made to the transmitter, or it's antenna.

It makes no difference at all whether the data being broadcast on a channel is Analog, or Digital, because the data does not control the behavior of the carrier. That is why your old TV antenna that worked just fine when OTA TV was analog still works just fine for OTA Digital TV that we have today, assuming you have a UHF antenna. There is absolutely no such thing as a DIGITAL HD specific antenna... it is just marketing bull****.

Now, that is not to say that the equipment RECEIVING the signal will behave the same. They won't. Multipath interference, which caused the "ghosting" in analog TV, was annoying, but usually tolerable, up to a point. Not so with Digital... even just a little bit of Multipath interference will wipe out most Digital receivers, because they cannot correctly process the 2 different data streams caused by the multipath interference. There is lots to read about all this if you want!


And with all the re-allocations of channels, you will find that almost all of the TV stations are now broadcasting on Real Channels in the UHF band, even though they may be using Virtual Channels that used to be VHF channels.
Thanks. It’s good to see a well worded post with accurate information.
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Old 04-01-2020, 09:16 AM   #28
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Redundancy

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Originally Posted by mikes86gn View Post
I conveyed to the FCC in 2009 after the analog to digital switch that I had lost most of my over the air channels and would hate to see a national emergency and not be informed because I lost most of my channels. I was told to buy a better antenna. To this day (of 63 years of being born) I've never understood why I needed to buy something to continue to watch TV because of an all or nothing signal. Ham radio that I can talk across the world isn't this sensitive.

Over and out,

Mike
As an amateur radio operator you probably know all this stuff. This is just a reminder.

Voice has a lot of redundancy. Bell Tel delivered it to you in a bandwidth-limited channel of 300-3000 Hz and it was more than adequate. You could get complete comprehension on even a noisy channel.

Video requires a lot more bandwidth. Even 525-line SD analog TV needed 6 MHz, 2000 times more than voice. This just for a 720x480 picture, 345,600 pixels.

Now you get "full HD" pictures over the air. These are 1920x1080 in the same 6 MHz channel, 2,073,600 pixels. That's the reason for going digital, to delver 6 times as much information.

Why is the channel so sensitive? They will tell you "Oh, it's digital." But the real reason is broadcaster greediness. When the digital frames are sent, they could send mostly complete frames, interspersed here and there with differential frames--"same as the last one except these parts." It's a good technique, especially when there is only a little movement in the entire frame. Think of an ad pitchman. Only his head is moving. No reason to send the walls, ceiling, desk, etc.

The broadcasters quickly figured out that they could stuff two, three, even four other channels into that 6 MHz bandwidth by sending multiple digital streams through it. To do so, they had to send a lot more differential frames in each channel--and that made it much more vulnerable to interference. If you miss a complete frame, the screen can't update until another one comes along.

The frame rate for digital TV is 30 frames per second, same as analog TV. If every other frame were complete, you wouldn't even notice a missed frame. But when there are dozens of differential frames and you miss a complete frame--or even a differential frame--you see the freezing or pixelation.

So when you see this problem, blame the broadcaster. It's his fault for stuffing too many channels into his allotted bandwidth.

I'm trying to think of a ham radio analogy. Maybe an operator using too much power or broadcasting with too many harmonics.
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Old 04-01-2020, 09:59 AM   #29
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Now you get "full HD" pictures over the air. These are 1920x1080 in the same 6 MHz channel, 2,073,600 pixels. That's the reason for going digital, to delver 6 times as much information.

Why is the channel so sensitive? They will tell you "Oh, it's digital." But the real reason is broadcaster greediness. When the digital frames are sent, they could send mostly complete frames, interspersed here and there with differential frames--"same as the last one except these parts." It's a good technique, especially when there is only a little movement in the entire frame. Think of an ad pitchman. Only his head is moving. No reason to send the walls, ceiling, desk, etc.

The broadcasters quickly figured out that they could stuff two, three, even four other channels into that 6 MHz bandwidth by sending multiple digital streams through it. To do so, they had to send a lot more differential frames in each channel--and that made it much more vulnerable to interference. If you miss a complete frame, the screen can't update until another one comes along.

The frame rate for digital TV is 30 frames per second, same as analog TV. If every other frame were complete, you wouldn't even notice a missed frame. But when there are dozens of differential frames and you miss a complete frame--or even a differential frame--you see the freezing or pixelation.

So when you see this problem, blame the broadcaster. It's his fault for stuffing too many channels into his allotted bandwidth.

I'm trying to think of a ham radio analogy. Maybe an operator using too much power or broadcasting with too many harmonics.



You're describing ATSC video compression standard...



I'm not sure that it is "broadcaster greediness" as you describe, more like government mandate as the FCC reallocates the RF bands for changing technology. The broadcasters just are taking advantage of what the new technology offers.


I think we are on ATSC 2.0 right now, and ATSC 3.0 is being tested in a few markets right now... 3.0 will bring Two Way Communication so that your TV can communicate back to the broadcast station along with other advancements. I'm not to sure I like the idea of Two Way comm, but it could allow for On-Demand OTA TV I think. We will see. Tech marches on, whether we like it or not.
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Old 04-01-2020, 12:55 PM   #30
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Yes

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You're describing ATSC video compression standard...
Yes, of course. Just trying to keep it simple. ATSC replaced NTSC which Mikes86gn was lamenting.

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I'm not sure that it is "broadcaster greediness" as you describe, more like government mandate as the FCC reallocates the RF bands for changing technology. The broadcasters just are taking advantage of what the new technology offers.
I disagree. Providing a decent OTA 1080i broadcast is taking advantage of the technology. Squeezing a 1080i and two 720p streams onto the same 6 MHz channel is abusing the technology.

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I think we are on ATSC 2.0 right now, and ATSC 3.0 is being tested in a few markets right now... 3.0 will bring Two Way Communication so that your TV can communicate back to the broadcast station along with other advancements. I'm not to sure I like the idea of Two Way comm, but it could allow for On-Demand OTA TV I think. We will see. Tech marches on, whether we like it or not.
You could look at DOCSIS 3.0, introduced in 2006, to see how popular two-way communication actually is.
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Old 04-01-2020, 01:14 PM   #31
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As for me, I'd rather have 3 channels, one at 1080 and two at 720, than just one at 1080. For me, 720i is more than adequate, 1080i and 1080p are nice, but not essential. The higher resolutions just needlessly eat up bandwidth, for no tangible benefit. But then, I'm not picky... I'm happy to just have a good picture. 720 is more than adequate for entertainment.







DOCSIS 3.x and ATSC 3.0 are not the same thing, and not for the same purpose.


DOCSIS is essentially internet over cable...



ATSC 3.0 can and probably will be used to control who can see what... among other capabilities. So even if you have a good signal, if you are not in the "proper" area, you can be blacked out and denied the ability to watch certain programming.
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Old 04-01-2020, 01:27 PM   #32
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Also, when ATSC 3.0, or 3.x goes into full implementation, you will likely have to trash your current equipment and purchase televisions that are ATSC 3.x compliant. From what I have read, the powers that be do not want any backward compatibility once full implementation is established.
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Old 04-05-2020, 09:49 PM   #33
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We have a 2014 with a batwing antenna which does pretty well. At home or if I needed a great antenna on the road I would use a $30 digital antenna through Ebay. They come with the ability to rotate 360 degrees and pull in stations from 50 miles away, further if the land is flat and clear of obstructions. We live in the Welsh Mountains with heavy forest all around. We get clear TV signals at home from Harrisburg (49 miles as crow flies) and Allentown (43 miles). These antennas are lightweight, cheap, amplified, powerful and directional. They can be easily mounted to a lightweight pole attached to your RV's ladder. They detach from the pole with a thumb-screw. They fold up to a modest size, still maybe 2' x 2'. They are great value for long distance TV signals.
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Old 04-05-2020, 11:28 PM   #34
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To: NMWILDCAT

Switched to DISH and a Tailgater; worst investment I ever made.
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Old 04-05-2020, 11:37 PM   #35
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Well then, you had the exact opposite experience that we have had with Dish and our old Tailgater.. You don't say why you don't like it so it could be a million things.
We have used ours successfully all over the country and there was only one time we could not get a signal and that was when we were in small, deep, rock canyon that didn't allow us to see the satellites.
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Switched to DISH and a Tailgater; worst investment I ever made.
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Old 04-06-2020, 08:18 PM   #36
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My Surveyor also came with a junk antenna that had no reception.
I installed a Wingard Batwing and pull in a bunch of channels now.
Photo is the junk antenna I had on my Surveyor.
This antenna in this photo looks more like the WiFi repeater on our Flagstaff ePro14fk, not the included Winegard dish TV antenna.
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Old 04-06-2020, 10:09 PM   #37
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Try changing your coax. We were in Branson last year and we're having trouble getting the Springfield stations 40 miles away on our rooftop. We put in a new coax wire from the TV to the antenna in connection and bingo, got all three networks, plus others.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:58 PM   #38
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LTE Filter for TV antenna often helps cell tower interference.

As Larry-NC stated there have been a lot of changes in OTA television broadcast. I was a member of Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (SMPTE standards organization) for many years and heald a First Class FCC broadcast engineer license. When the digital standards came out I actually believed it would usher a new era for OTA broadcast so it could compete with direct to dish and cable. Boy was I wrong.

The biggest problem was that soon as it allowed for multi channel broadcasting plans were underway for the FCC to auction off channel capacity and most recently force broadcasters to pack stations into lower resolution (read less bandwidth) broadcasting. This is especially true around large cities as the cellular providers and others want the spectrum.

On the plus side there are now licensees in many of the smaller markets now that most everything has moved to the UHF part of the band. So in many parts of the country there are actually more broadcast stations than there were when broadcasters wanted high power and wanted to be on VHF frequencies. The FCC took most of the VHF high power spectrum away except for some PBS stations and required stations that wanted to stay on their old VHF assigned channels to broadcast at a lower power than they previously did.

Another problem is that the modulation scheme adopted by the Advanced Television Standards Committee (ATSC) is not very robust and is subject to degrade when there are lots of reflections coming in to the antenna from buildings and other objects. Nothing we can do about that unfortunately. One thing I would suggest to folks that are having problems due to their being close to cellular telephone towers would be to purchase a filter that will aid in keeping cellular interference out of the TV. Here is a link for one that I installed in my motorhome between the booster and the TV.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07Y26F22P...xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==
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Old 04-14-2020, 09:04 AM   #39
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The FCC took most of the VHF high power spectrum away except for some PBS stations and required stations that wanted to stay on their old VHF assigned channels to broadcast at a lower power than they previously did.

Have you ever noticed that PBS stations continuously cry poor, yet a lot of them have better equipment than the commercial stations? Friend of mine who worked for a local (NBC, I think) station was jealous when he took a tour of the local PBS station.
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