2020 Forest River Ozark 1700TH Nose weight

[ThrasherG]

Hi everyone,


I am fairly new to this trailer towing malarkey and wanted to ask a specific question about my toy hauler (A 2020 Forest River Ozark 1700TH). I purchased this trailer about a year ago and was surprised by how much the back end of my car squats when I connect the trailer, the forest river specs say 480 Lbs hitch point weight and I am using a ford expedition max to pull it. I purchased a weight distribution hitch and set the hitch up so that the car sits level. It tows fine. I finally purchased a trailer weigh scale and find that my nose weight of the empty trailer is 925Lbs with all tanks empty and 1125Lbs with the fresh water tank full!! I can now understand why my car squats so badly, so my question is, why is my nose weight more than 2x the weight listed by Forest river? I have a little 4Kw generator in the pass thru at the front (the generator weighs 70 Lbs) and 2 spare wheels, other wise the space is empty. I have not added anything to the trailer (its completely stock) so I would really like to understand why the nose is so heavy? When I put my motorcycles inside the trailer the nose gets lighter (to be expected as the motorcycles are behind the trailer axle so their weight is lightening the nose).


Can anyone suggest to me why I am seeing 925 Lbs and not the 480 Lbs that Forest river claim when my trailer is completely stock except for a small generator and 2 spare wheels?


Thanks in advance for all suggestions, my car can cope with this weight with the hitch, but I would love to get the nose weight to 500 Lbs if I could.


Regards Gary

[bikendan]

Originally Posted by ThrasherG

Hi everyone,


I am fairly new to this trailer towing malarkey and wanted to ask a specific question about my toy hauler (A 2020 Forest River Ozark 1700TH). I purchased this trailer about a year ago and was surprised by how much the back end of my car squats when I connect the trailer, the forest river specs say 480 Lbs hitch point weight and I am using a ford expedition max to pull it. I purchased a weight distribution hitch and set the hitch up so that the car sits level. It tows fine. I finally purchased a trailer weigh scale and find that my nose weight of the empty trailer is 925Lbs with all tanks empty and 1125Lbs with the fresh water tank full!! I can now understand why my car squats so badly, so my question is, why is my nose weight more than 2x the weight listed by Forest river? I have a little 4Kw generator in the pass thru at the front (the generator weighs 70 Lbs) and 2 spare wheels, other wise the space is empty. I have not added anything to the trailer (its completely stock) so I would really like to understand why the nose is so heavy? When I put my motorcycles inside the trailer the nose gets lighter (to be expected as the motorcycles are behind the trailer axle so their weight is lightening the nose).


Can anyone suggest to me why I am seeing 925 Lbs and not the 480 Lbs that Forest river claim when my trailer is completely stock except for a small generator and 2 spare wheels?


Thanks in advance for all suggestions, my car can cope with this weight with the hitch, but I would love to get the nose weight to 500 Lbs if I could.


Regards Gary

First, you made a newbie mistake by using fictional dry weight numbers.
Those numbers are fictional because they don't include the weights of:
Batteries
Possibly propane
Factory options
Dealer add-ons
Water
Trailer cargo

The final problem is that it's a single axle trailer, which results in higher loaded tongue weights, versus a comarable tandem axle trailer. Many buyers of these popular larger single axle trailers, have been shocked how much heavier the loaded tongue weights are.
You probably are exceeding the Expy's payload capacity.

[ThrasherG]

Many thanks Dan, I didn’t realise the published weights by forest river were imaginary, I had assumed being a reputable company the information would be accurate. However the more I see of the trailer build quality and now your explanation, it seems that they are not as reputable as I thought.
However, if I apply some basic maths, things still don’t seem to add up. I get that maybe forest rivers published nose weight probably didn’t include the battery weight (the owner can fit a battery of different weight/size) and didn’t include the propane tank (again the owner can fit a single or double tank), but I assume the published weight did include all the kitchen fittings and the bed and mattress as this is supplied by forest river as standard. Now forest river state a nose weight of 480 Lbs, I am seeing 920 Lbs (empty water tank), that is 440 Lbs more than forest river claim, now most of that weight is not directly on the nose (just the battery and propane tank is up front), so the extra weight must be inside the trailer, and that weight would be quite evenly shared between the axle and the nose. So I have 440 Lbs too much, if I assume the LPG tank and the battery weigh 80 Lbs, and it’s close to the nose, so worst case all of that weight is going just through the coupling (i know that’s not the case, but assuming it for simplicity) so I subtract that 80 Lbs from my 440 Lbs excess weight, that leaves 340 Lbs over the specified weight, if as I assume this excess weight is equally split between the trailer axle and the nose, it means I have 680 Lbs extra weight inside the trailer compared to what forest river had when they measured the nose weight.. I cannot imagine what can be added inside the trailer at the front that adds 680 Lbs!!

As you state, I think Forest River have completely lied about the nose weight. I will contact Forest River and try to get some sense from them. My Expedition has a max hitch weight of 900 Lbs (I have the 4x4 option with the heavy duty class 4 hitch), so I am at the very limit of the car’s hitch rating. I am hoping that using a WDH means that the car is seeing less than the 920 Lbs, but time will tell. I thought this was a small trailer and would not be an issue for my car, all my other trailers have been much larger twin axle and I never needed a WDH before. I Am surprised that such a small single axle trailer can cause so many issues.. I suspect this might be my first and last forest river product, but will see what they say before I burn that bridge..

[bikendan]

What you don't realize, fictional dry weight numbers are a RV Industry-wide standard, not just Forest River. It's been a standard for decades.
You're going to find fictional dry weight numbers, no matter the RV manufacturer.
And I never said Forest River lied. That's your interpretation, not mine. I was well aware of the differences because I joined numerous RV forums and learned about towing weights, before buying my first trailer. Those numbers are for a stripped-down version of the trailer. That is why GVWR is the only true number.
You haven't posted what your Expy's payload capacity is, which is the most important number for towing a trailer, NOT its towing capacity.
And Toyhauler trailers are the hardest to determine real world loaded tongue weight because of hauling motorized toys in the garage.

[D W]

The question now is how much weight are you transferring to the front axle of your TV? In other words, is your WDH set-up doing an effective job? Time to hit the scales.

[jimmoore13]

Hmmm

A couple of things come to mind.

1) This is a toy hauler. The expectation is that you might add, say, an ATV, a couple dirt bikes, or maybe even a modest Razor in the cargo bay. The "toys" ride essentially behind or over the axle, and that UNLOADS a lot of that tongue weight. You made a comment that you are aware of this.
In fact, that's a big concern for any toy hauler. Weight and balance can be life and death.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9Dgxe584Ss

So, while I'm not addressing the why of fictional numbers in the manufacturer's literature, that seemingly heavy tongue weight empty may be a blessing when you load your rig. It was a wise move to get the scale.
You want a minimum of 10% of the trailer's weight on the tongue, and it would be VERY easy to unload the tongue too much depending on the toys you load in that thing. Based on GVWR, you need at least 500# on the tongue.

If you roll out without toys in the garage, you'll need to load other cargo in the garage to take some weight off the tongue.

2) You call your tow vehicle a "car." The GVWR on that rig is 4880 pounds...let's call it 5000 lb. in round numbers. 5K is a pretty heavy trailer for pretty much any "car." In your second post, you identify your car as a Ford Expedition...essentially an F150 with an SUV body. So it's a truck. And that's a good thing.
In terms of determining acceptable tongue weight, two things matter. Payload capacity of your tow vehicle (TV) and hitch capacity.
Your Expedition will have a published payload capacity (probably close to 2000 pounds...which is what we call a half ton today ), and payload includes humans, pets, cell phones, luggage, and, oh by the way, tongue weight. I don't know the specs for your TV, but they will be on a door sticker. As for the hitch load capacity, that 900# seems low, but it is what it is.
Important to note: If you put 1500# of payload in your TV before hitching up, and if your payload capacity is 2000#, your acceptable tongue weight is 500# regardless of what the hitch says. Why is this important? The tires, wheels, axles, bearings, brakes, and all that other stuff are rated to carry around the empty truck, a full tank of gas, and that payload. More weight on those components will shorten the life of the TV, and it might provoke a catastrophic failue that leads to a wreck.

A Weight Distribution Hitch (WDH) will do wonders to get rid of the squat and transfer some of that tongue weight to the front axle. Note: a WDH does NOT reduce tongue weight. It just manages it. Moreover, a WDH probably weighs in at 70 pounds or so, and guess what. It also counts as, you guessed it, tongue weight. (It's in the hitch receiver, so it counts.)

You might also consider adding airbags to the rear suspension to firm up the suspension. Air bags will take a lot of "wallow" and "porpoising" out of the suspension. I have a nearly 6K# rig that I tow with a 2006 RAM 1500, and the airbags do such a good job in my case that I don't need a WDH. Note that my 4-door, 6' bed pickup has a much longer wheelbase than an Expedition, so the leverage applied by tongue weight behind the rear axle of the TV is less of a problem than it might be on your TV. Fundamentally, without a WDH, the tongue weight behind the rear axle wants to lift the front tires off the ground...and very much of that can make towing dangerous, make steering floaty, and make the TV's front brakes ineffective.

When towing, be sure to inflate your rear tires to max sidewall pressure so they can carry their rated load capacity, and they'll be far less squirmy side to side. And they'll run cooler, because they'll flex less.

Fundamentally, your rig is well matched to your TV. And looking at the floorplan of your rig, EVERYTHING in the rig is mounted above or forward of the axle. The only things in the garage are the click/clack sofa and a table and a small hanging locker way up high...and the heavy-by-design garage door. It's just a big empty hole back there with very little ballast. If, one day, you stop carrying toys, you'll need to rethink things....and maybe add another cabinet for storage, some comfy chairs, and maybe a storage bay for your generator. But empty, that thing's tongue weight comes as no surprise. It's clearly that way by design.

You own it, so published numbers be damned. Use your scale to solve the problem by proper loading.

[jimmoore13]

Addendum: A WDH doesn't reduce tongue weight. Why? From the receiver hitch's perspective, 900# of dead weight is 900# of dead weight regardless of whether lever bars are twisting on the hitch-ball-coupler joint or not. That 900# weighs the same going over bumps and whoops, and it has 900# of inertia as it plunges up and down. Your receiver can manage all that yanking, pulling, and oscillation...up to 900# of force/mass. WDH or not, your receiver is rated to manage the forces that 900# can apply to it...any which way.

I alluded to this obliquely. You bought a toy hauler. I understand you have toys. It seems as if you needed a toy hauler. But you bought one of the smallest toy haulers extant. Single axle no less. Had you purchased a 40' fifth wheel toy hauler, the contents of the garage would be a much smaller fraction of the GVWR. In your case, you have a 3500# trailer that might be tasked with carrying 1000# or more of toys and generator, gear, etc. In fact, a 2-seat Polaris RZR weighs in at more than your rig can carry. A pair of Honda 2024 CRF250Rs will weigh in at 500# wet...with no accessories. Add 10 gallons of gas (6.6#/gallon plus gas can), tools, accessories, riding gear, food, water and so on, and you'll eat up your 1500# CCC in a hurry. A full fresh tank, 38 gallons, will add 315# (8.3#/gallon) all by itself. Toss in a wet generator at 65# +/-. Throw some solar on the roof, add batteries, and you can see where this is going. Every pound counts, and where you put every pound in your rig matters a lot.

I truly am not scolding you. I'm saying that you have a very niche rig...a tiny toy hauler...and it's not the toys that are tiny. If this is what you want and need, you'll need to become a weight and balance expert in a big hurry, because this is the very definition of 10 pounds of poop in a 5 pound bag.

[Dwilcox]

I would also look at the load range of the tires. They usually put just adequate load range tires on the trailer. You might want to bump up a range or 2 as with only one axle things could get really dicey if you have a tire failure.

[Aussieguy]

toy hauler is designed to carry toys
put your toys in and weigh it

more than likely the weight of the toy will balance it out.


if possible put heaviest part of the toy to the rear... behind the axle


if your water tank is after the axle fill it....

[Capacitor]

How are you measuring tongue weight? Do you have a Sherline scale? Your 4k generator has to weigh more than 70#. Remove it and the two wheels from the pass through and weigh again. Just curious but why two wheels? Are these for the bikes and are they paddles for sand?

[Larry-NC]

Originally Posted by Dwilcox

I would also look at the load range of the tires. They usually put just adequate load range tires on the trailer. You might want to bump up a range or 2 as with only one axle things could get really dicey if you have a tire failure.

A lot of SUVs (including the Expedition) have tires made for comfort, not heavy loads. Ford and Firestone have a history of that.

It might be time for tires with more load-bearing capacity for the Expedition, too.

[D W]

Originally Posted by Larry-NC

A lot of SUVs (including the Expedition) have tires made for comfort, not heavy loads. Ford and Firestone have a history of that.

It might be time for tires with more load-bearing capacity for the Expedition, too.

These type vehicles are not the beasts they were prior to the 90's. These days they are built for "cruising" with soft suspensions and come equipped with P-Metric radial tires. They have been relegated to grocery getters.

[gw1800]

Originally Posted by bikendan

First, you made a newbie mistake by using fictional dry weight numbers.
Those numbers are fictional because they don't include the weights of:
Batteries
Possibly propane
Factory options
Dealer add-ons
Water
Trailer cargo

The final problem is that it's a single axle trailer, which results in higher loaded tongue weights, versus a comarable tandem axle trailer. Many buyers of these popular larger single axle trailers, have been shocked how much heavier the loaded tongue weights are.
You probably are exceeding the Expy's payload capacity.

Not sure about FR but most publish the tongue weight including the battery and full propane tanks. The OP doesn't say what kind of car.
The 1700th has a tongue weight of about 500 lbs. A car also would have P rated tires and suspension for a soft ride.

[ThrasherG]

Thanks everyone, you all make a lot of good points, as stated the expedition is rated to pul 9000 Lbs, and my RV with toys is a long way short of that. I am running E load range tyres, so the total weight should not be an issue, but as stated the nose weight is much higher than I ever expected, and I do have a WDH which itself is very heavy.. I tried measuring the nose weight with different toys in the trailer and I started to move a few things to the rear of the RV, it all helps lighten the nose, but there is still 800 Lbs of weight on the RV coupling (not including the WDH weight).
The car still pulls everything very nicely and maybe I just have to live with it, the fresh water tank is in front of the axle, so will make matters worse when full, so I will try and keep it empty when I tow and then fill up at camp sites when I arrive. All of my previous trailers have been tandem axle and I have never seen so much nose weight as I am with this little single axle..
Having said all that the RV really fits my needs for the wife and I, we can carry our 2 dirt bikes, or our 2 road bikes in the RV and go anywhere we want, there is just the 2 of us in the car and our dog (180 Lbs Newfoundland) so we will be keeping it for a while.. as stated I am now far more aware of the nose weight of this RV and single axle trailers and will get better with practice..

As mentioned I also fitted tyres to the trailer with a higher weight rating and max speed rating, just to have more margin.

So thanks for all the help and jokes..

Gary

[ThrasherG]

Originally Posted by Capacitor

How are you measuring tongue weight? Do you have a Sherline scale? Your 4k generator has to weigh more than 70#. Remove it and the two wheels from the pass through and weigh again. Just curious but why two wheels? Are these for the bikes and are they paddles for sand?

The trailer came with 1 spare wheel and I used it on the first trip that we took with the trailer. I felt very vulnerable not having another spare wheel, with tandem axle trailers you can drive short distances (at slow speed) with a single wheel on one side of the trailer, but with a single axle, you are completely buggered once you have a single flat tyre, so I just wanted to have 2 spare tyres for my peace of mind..

Regards Gary