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Old 09-03-2013, 08:07 AM   #81
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i was more worried of overloading a ultra light fifth wheel frame vs a 11,300 towing capacity truck.

Brian
In fact, for that matter - ultra light frame or not. Wouldn't the RV and it's frame be built with the same design tolerances to allow overloading? What would a reasonable amount of overloading for the frame be?

I'm really not trying to be persnickety- I've honestly wondered something a thread a while back tried to ask:
- Why is it OK to exceed some ratings? But others are treated as gospel and to not be exceeded.
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Old 09-03-2013, 08:15 AM   #82
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Doug, if you're the cause of a whole new generation of people who don't think RV GVWR's matter, some of us are not going to be happy with you! ;-)
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Old 09-03-2013, 11:42 AM   #83
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I'd weigh them. If they are under 265 pounds, they're allowed in the truck (can't take anything with them, though!). If they're over 265 pounds, I'd put my mother-in-law in the fifth wheel and let this extra adult ride in the truck. Depending on how far over they are from 265 pounds, I'd decide how far back she has to stay. Only a little over, and she's allowed to ride in the shower stall. Much over 265, she'd be locked in the bunkhouse. (sarcasm, of course)

I've always maintained that things can be used right up until their design numbers. Heck, I use 265 in my joking-ness above because that's where my truck was with the last "heaviest weighing" weighing. That was with an extra adult. We still had room for another, but it gets cozy with 3 adults across the front.

Yes, I do believe that there is tolerance built into the numbers. Lots of people prove that every day- from RVers overloading their specs to the folks in the agriculture industry to the occasional Harry Homeowner who needs to get a couple of tons of landscaping material home. I do not believe that going 1 pound over is the teeter totter point of failure.

Yes, I do believe that trucks perform optimally when they're within their published ratings. I also believe that it helps you to save your bacon when things helped- even if it's of my own making (almost getting stuck in the mud due to a piss-poor parking job last month). If I had been significantly overloaded, would I have had the power to get back out of my mess? It's impossible to say, of course. But it did make me think- especially after the campground employee told me that someone else got stuck worse and had to be pulled out with a tractor trailer.

Now, before you ask the final 2 questions:
1) no, I do not believe that folks are instantly a danger to society once they go over their ratings. But, I do question some of the setups that I see (triple axle trailer pulled by a 3/4-ton truck but they obviously made it there OK).

2) no, I do not believe that you'll instantly have an insurance nightmare if you're overloaded. Again, significantly overloaded is another question. I also don't believe that just because your wreckage is strewn across the highway, median and blown about in the wind that ballpark weights can't be figured out. Being in the DC area and hearing the news reports of accident reconstructions when there are fatalities makes me think something can be done. I may not know how, but I do believe it's possible. (And, member blueflame recently confirmed those suspicions.)

And finally, I also recommend a slower rate of speed than towing than most of the drivers who pass me. I try to keep my speed right about 62mph.

Anything else you'd like to know from the mind o' Doug?
I hope you enjoy sleeping on the couch tonight

I think the last three statements are what seperate you from the "weight police". I enjoy these discussions from a logical perspective and don't really understand why some interject emotional points of view,

Regarding which numbers are important, for me its the safety related numbers. The tire loading to me is paramount as they are the most stressed point in the system (and also cheapest in relation to thier value). Axles would be next again, as they are a stress point. GVWR is less important to me personally (as I tow a small TT) because they are more related to performance. I am also not concerned about too much hitch weight (as long as my back axle is fine) as I don't think risk of it falling off my car is as great as the control issues faced by too little hitch weight.

(I am just giving my opinion here. I am new at this and could be totally wrong)
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Old 09-04-2013, 06:43 PM   #84
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I've been looking at these trucks as well, according to the Ford website with a regular cab 4X2 with max payload package and 145" wheelbase the payload is 3100 lbs with Ecoboost and 3120 with the 5.0 liter....sure seems like a lot to me for a small truck...

2013 Ford F-150 | View Payload Specifications | Ford.ca
I think you are looking at KG and not LB. There is a conversion button at the top of the page.

We have a 2011 F150 4x2 Supercrew. 145" wheelbase, 3.5L V6 Ecoboost. Max towing package. Max trailer weight of 11,300 lbs and it is rated 7400 GVWR, 16,900 GCWR, and max payload of 1930.
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Old 09-04-2013, 07:25 PM   #85
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Just my 2 cents worth. It's like the argument of saying mine is bigger than yours so it must be better. Keep in mind the NEW 1/2 pickups have the same or more capacity than 3/4 and 1 ton trucks from the early 90s. Things change. The current 1/2 pickups dwarf 1/2 pickups from just 10-15 years ago. As well as the new 3/4 and 1 ton pickups dwarfs the same style trucks from 10-15 years ago. So we all need to keep this in perspective when saying your truck can't but my truck can. Numbers are what the numbers are. As long as you abide by them then you should be fine. Based on comments from different places your best bet would be to have a semi pull a pop up trailer (exaggeration). From working in the auto industry since 1996 I can tell you the trucks from yesteryear nowhere compare to trucks of today. Where would you have heard of a truck have 800 ft lbs of torque just 10 years ago. Things change and vehicles get safer and better each year. Now I'm not knocking anyones opinion at all, just saying keep it in perspective to what trucks used to be and what they are today.
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Old 09-04-2013, 07:32 PM   #86
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Exceeding the stickers by a significant amount is not a wise thing to do, but by the same token, saying they cannot be exceeded is likewise unwise which brings up the same folks say you cannot exceed such and such a sticker but will pull a trailer on st tires in excess of 65 mph and swear it is ok. Go figure.
It's like yogurt. Some think the date on the container is a "best" before, but no problem to exceed it as long as there is no visible mold on top and it tastes OK. Some think the date is firm, the yogurt must be thrown out immediately after.

The best before date is the weight limits. The yogurt is the trailer. The mold is a mechanical failure of the TV.
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:04 PM   #87
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They may still be F150 or 1500's, but lets remember that "1/2-ton" refers to (approximately) the payload capacity. If they ain't, they ain't!
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:27 PM   #88
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Manufactures have been phasing out calling pickups 1/2,3/4,1 ton for years. There ifs not much difference between a 2500/250 and a3500/350 any more. Even my 2500 has a payload of 3100. The only difference going up to a 3500 is additional leaf springs and possibly dual rear tires. The drive train is the same between the two. Which was not the case years ago. Follow the payload for your year of truck and all will be good.
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:32 PM   #89
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Brian, thanks for your response. Unfortunately, I'm going to snip one thing out of it and question that. Old Coot has said the same thing before- he keeps his speed to 55-60mph and lambastes those exceed the 65mph rating of the ST tires.

Why do you believe you can exceed the ratings of your truck but not of your tires? Surely the tires have the same design tolerances built in. While they're rated to 65mph, why can't we exceed them by say 10% and do 72mph?

OC, I'm curious of your answer here, as well.
A trailer tire blowout can have catastrophic consequences to the occupants in the tv as well as others on the highway. Violating a lawyer sticker will only wear out the tv if you believe the skeptics. ST tires have a history of failures from heat and speed, whereas no one can cite more than a few freak occurrences of a tv failure like a frame failure or rear wheel brgs failing.
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:40 PM   #90
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A trailer tire blowout can have catastrophic consequences to the occupants in the tv as well as others on the highway. Violating a lawyer sticker will only wear out the tv if you believe the skeptics. ST tires have a history of failures from heat and speed, whereas no one can cite more than a few freak occurrences of a tv failure like a frame failure or rear wheel brgs failing.
That's a fair reasoning.

But, I still think that you contradict a bit of what you say that there are design tolerances built into things. While ST tires can and do fail more often, what's to say that it was speed that caused it? Wouldn't a more likely culprit be road hazards?
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:56 PM   #91
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That's a fair reasoning.

But, I still think that you contradict a bit of what you say that there are design tolerances built into things. While ST tires can and do fail more often, what's to say that it was speed that caused it? Wouldn't a more likely culprit be road hazards?
Probably both, heat is a major contributor and heat is more often than not caused by under inflation. Road hazards may cause a few, but curbing is a more likely cause. The road hazards like chuck holes, etc are also encountered by the tow vehicle and you don't see tv tires disintegrating like trailer tires.

As for tire tolerances, I have no experience with the design or testing, only with mechanical design tolerances/testing. Most mechanical designers try for a minimum of 4-1 safety factor, or at least where I worked we did.
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Old 09-04-2013, 09:45 PM   #92
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Probably both, heat is a major contributor and heat is more often than not caused by under inflation. Road hazards may cause a few, but curbing is a more likely cause. The road hazards like chuck holes, etc are also encountered by the tow vehicle and you don't see tv tires disintegrating like trailer tires.

As for tire tolerances, I have no experience with the design or testing, only with mechanical design tolerances/testing. Most mechanical designers try for a minimum of 4-1 safety factor, or at least where I worked we did.
The maximum speed is 65mph, any faster causes the tire to begin to breakdown. The average tire life is 5000 to 12000 miles, 3 to 4 years. Most tire failures are do to age, which is not that old, and under inflation which causes excess heat. Most trailer s sit outside and if the tires are in the sun when you check them before a trip odds have it you are not putting enough air in. The tires need to be truly cold when filling.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:23 PM   #93
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There are combos out there that are under all ratings. Mine for example. My truck has a payload of just under 2200lbs. It is also custom ordered and built for towing. Not many will have that build type though. Yes my combo has been scaled under complete loaded conditions with my family and my usual gear.

With careful planning and having the right gear so called '1/2 tonne' are more than capable of fifth wheel towing.
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Old 09-06-2013, 01:35 PM   #94
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Well! Yesterday I hooked my brothers 8526RKWS Flagstaff 29.3 feet and 1495 pin weight with my Nissan Titan. His pin weight was actually higher with load. The truck only dropped 2.25 inches. I pulled it 26 KM thru the back roads at 80 KPH.
The truck pulled it extremely well (Trl weight 7500Lbs). I noticed a slight left to right motion due to the tires P265 70/R18, and no bottom out but you could notice the weight. The brakes performed well, but this is not a pin weight that I would purchase a Trl with. I later scaled my Titan with my wife and I at 5900 lbs with fuel topped up with Reese hitch with slider on 6.5" box. My truck specs are 9500 tow, 1827 pin. I will be installing Timbren rear suspension next week. Hope this info also helps others determine their capabilities. Now to research what I am willing to tow. The dealer and RV sales seem to say your truck can haul way heavier, but after 29 years and climbing of driving a simi. I know what is to be overloaded and going down a mountain with breaks not being able to to slow you down. So for all of you who think you can. Please think twice. I would sure hate, to not have one day met, some of you in a campground having a beer, because you thought you could.
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Old 09-06-2013, 01:38 PM   #95
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The truck pulled it extremely well (Trl weight 7500Lbs). I noticed a slight left to right motion due to the tires P265 70/R18, and no bottom out but you could notice the weight. The brakes performed well, but this is not a pin weight that I would purchase a Trl with. I later scaled my Titan with my wife and I at 5900 lbs with fuel topped up with Reese hitch with slider on 6.5" box. My truck specs are 9500 tow, 1827 pin.
Out of curiosity, what is your GVWR?
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Old 09-06-2013, 01:48 PM   #96
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GVWR is 7100
Front 3800
Rear 4200
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Old 09-06-2013, 02:01 PM   #97
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GVWR is 7100
Front 3800
Rear 4200
Thanks. Looks like your advertised cargo carrying capacity may be 1,827 based on this:

>> My truck specs are 9500 tow, 1827 pin.

But, in reality if you're going to stick within your specs, you really only have 1,200 pounds (7,100 gvwr minus truck weight 5,900).

But, as you found- you were able to tow a bit more than that with your brother's camper (which, 1,495 looks to be the "dry" weight). The real pin weight is typically a fair amount more than that. Has he ever scaled it?
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