RV News RVBusiness 2021 Top 10 RVs of the Year, plus 56 additional debuts and must-see units → ×


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-02-2016, 07:53 PM   #141
Coachman 312BHDS
 
tbln930's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 273
So if you pay twice as much for the bigger truck your pocket book is happier. I think you need to rethink this entire line of reasoning - a lot. Fewer repairs? See the trouble with generalities? They are nearly always incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heypapa View Post
No, I simply stated take your the gross vehicle tow rating and calculate 75% of that number. Makes for a happier me, happier truck and happier pocket book with fewer repairs and tow fees.
__________________
2017 Open Range Roamer RF376FBH 42' fifth wheel
2016 F-350 Lariat SCrew 6.7L Turbo Diesel SRW - Extang Fold-up Hard tonneau cover - Husky 16k Fifth Wheel Hitch
tbln930 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 07:56 PM   #142
Mod free 5er
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 24,705
Boy!! The KoolAid is going down fast!
__________________
OldCoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 08:08 PM   #143
Coachman 312BHDS
 
tbln930's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 273
I am just toying with him. Every RV forum has size addicts. They keep buying and pushing bigger RVs and bigger trucks to pull them. Pretty soon we will be hauling our entire house with us. lol When they finally get to the other side they realize they just wanted something different. believe it or not there is now a market of class A folks headed back to microvans. Miniature High-Efficiency Motorhomes. They can go everywhere the these huge monstrosities can't. You are not upgrading - you are just traveling around the circle.
__________________
2017 Open Range Roamer RF376FBH 42' fifth wheel
2016 F-350 Lariat SCrew 6.7L Turbo Diesel SRW - Extang Fold-up Hard tonneau cover - Husky 16k Fifth Wheel Hitch
tbln930 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 08:23 PM   #144
Senior Member
 
CaptnJohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 3,831
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbln930 View Post
I am just toying with him. Every RV forum has size addicts. They keep buying and pushing bigger RVs and bigger trucks to pull them. Pretty soon we will be hauling our entire house with us. lol When they finally get to the other side they realize they just wanted something different. believe it or not there is now a market of class A folks headed back to microvans. Miniature High-Efficiency Motorhomes. They can go everywhere the these huge monstrosities can't. You are not upgrading - you are just traveling around the circle.
Most with a size problem is because whatever the subject theirs is small. I have pulled with a Ford Ranger and several 1/2 ton trucks. Only 1 was at max for a couple pulls until TV was upgraded. A person can tow sane with a VW or foolish with a semi. Of course that does not hold true for those with a bigger ego than truck or anything else.
CaptnJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 09:16 PM   #145
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 11
OK, I'm out. Just wanted too give advice through my own trials and tribulations. Obviously I know nothing.
Heypapa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 09:22 PM   #146
Senior Member
 
W5CI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Carlisle, Arkansas
Posts: 1,378
I am no Engineer or Math Professor so I just bought a RAM 3500 DRW to tow my 5er. I am smart enough to not try it with a 1/2 ton
__________________
2005 Cedar Creek 30RLBS/TrailAir Hitch/ MORryde 7K IS/Disc Brakes/ PI PT-50 EMS/ RV Flex Armor Roof
2015 RAM 3500 DRW 6.7 Cummins 3.42/ Garmin 760RV
40 Gal TransferFlow fuel tank/ TST 507
Amateur Radio W5CI 2019 Days Camping 25
2020 Days Camping 7
W5CI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 09:24 PM   #147
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 11
So much sarcasm and attitude with expletive on this site. I'm done. Good luck to all.
Heypapa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 09:34 PM   #148
Coachman 312BHDS
 
tbln930's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 273
Well my TV when loaded with gear, etc. on a Cat scale is hugging the 4050 lb rear axle limit but bit below payload and 20% below the towing capacity when pulling my TT. My brother-in-law with his Platinum F250 and a 39' Keystone Sprinter 5er is over payload by about 350 lbs loaded on the very same Cat scale. I do agree that a DRW F350 class truck is needed for most larger 5er's but I see mainly F250 class trucks pulling them. My dealer told me a while back that about 80% of the F250s he sees are overloaded pulling 5ers. He says many need a DRW F350/3500 class and don't know it.
__________________
2017 Open Range Roamer RF376FBH 42' fifth wheel
2016 F-350 Lariat SCrew 6.7L Turbo Diesel SRW - Extang Fold-up Hard tonneau cover - Husky 16k Fifth Wheel Hitch
tbln930 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2016, 09:52 PM   #149
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heypapa View Post
So much sarcasm and attitude with expletive on this site. I'm done. Good luck to all.
Heypapa:

As any woman would probably understand, this particular subject seems to attract a lot of machismo, strutting and such, particularly from people trying to rationalize their lack of margin in a tow vehicle (just watch how I get lambasted for this post!). You just have to roll with it. I just break out another bag of popcorn and get my feet in the air (because sometimes the you-know-what gets pretty deep) while reading these posts!
__________________
1988 Coleman Sequoia - popup (1987-2009) - outlasted 3 Dodge Grand Caravans!
2012 Roo19 - hybrid (2012-2015)

2016 Mini Lite 2503S - tt (2015 - ???)
2011 Traverse LT, 3.6L, FWD
2009 Silverado 1500 Ext Cab, 5.3L, 4x4, 3.73
2016 Silverado 2500HD Dbl Cab, 6.0L 4x4, 4.10
rockfordroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2016, 05:34 AM   #150
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbln930 View Post
I am just toying with him. Every RV forum has size addicts. They keep buying and pushing bigger RVs and bigger trucks to pull them. Pretty soon we will be hauling our entire house with us. lol When they finally get to the other side they realize they just wanted something different. believe it or not there is now a market of class A folks headed back to microvans. Miniature High-Efficiency Motorhomes. They can go everywhere the these huge monstrosities can't. You are not upgrading - you are just traveling around the circle.
I'm the guy who despite having a 2500HD duramax purposely sought out a Roo183 just because I like camping and not RVing and wanted to be able to get it in to places a 30' travel trailer dared not go. You should have seen the looks on various sales mens faces when in an attempt to upgrade me (becaue 183's are rare) by asking " what can you tow" and I replied with " almost anything on the lot"

All that being said a 3/4 ton truck is so much more capable in all aspects than a 1/2 ton truck leaving the gas/diesel debate aside. So it's my opinion that if you're routinely towing more then 65%-75% of your vehicles rated capacity why not upgrade. It's probably cheaper than the additonal wear and tear and adding all the crap a half ton truck needs anyhow.

I have a weight carrying hitch, none of this expensive complicated weight distributing crap, the brakes on my truck can stop an additional 5,000 pounds without issue as long as it's not sudden ( yes I have a brake controller) I have no fears of scales or weight police becuase I know im well within my limits regardless of how much gear and water I have on board. The additional weight of the truck keeps me from ever feeling pushed around by the trailer. I could go on but I think I've made my point
BigLou80 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2016, 05:53 PM   #151
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heypapa View Post
No, I simply stated take your the gross vehicle tow rating and calculate 75% of that number. Makes for a happier me, happier truck and happier pocket book with fewer repairs and tow fees.
Nice idea for years. Some have said 80%. The problem is, it doesn't always work. This article explains why.

Is the 80% Towing Rule Safe?
__________________
Dave... and the best half, Amy
Fifth Wheel Street
- An RV safety website

08 Dodge Ram 3500 4X4, Dually, 6.7L Diesel,
B&W Gooseneck with 5th Wheel Companion, Firestone Air Bags,
K&N cold air intake with AEM dry filter
SOB: 09 Cyclone 4012 (GVWR: 20,400#) with Trail Air Tri Glide Air Ride Pin Box, My toy in the garage was a 2008 smart fortwo (1.8K#).
DaveGray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2016, 10:13 PM   #152
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heypapa View Post
No, I simply stated take your the gross vehicle tow rating and calculate 75% of that number. Makes for a happier me, happier truck and happier pocket book with fewer repairs and tow fees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGray View Post
Nice idea for years. Some have said 80%. The problem is, it doesn't always work. This article explains why.

Is the 80% Towing Rule Safe?
This article infers that people will take 80% of their rating and then buy a 5ver at exactly that weight and ignore everything else. It takes a TV, figures 80% of it's capacity, then picks a 5th wheel at that weight, does the calc, and says you've exceeded the 80%. Sure, you can do that, but I don't believe that's what people who say to "stay at 80% margin" mean, and I don't believe that's what Heypapa meant in his post.

I believe what he meant was: buy a 5th wheel (or TT) that, AFTER ALL THE APPROPRIATE MATH IS DONE, INCLUDING ALL APPROPRIATE LOADS (tongue weight, pin weight, "stuff," people), leaves you at 75% (or 80%) of your TV's ratings. This ALWAYS works.

If the article had worked the math backwards to determine what weight 5th wheel, plus other loads, would keep them under the 80% margin, there would be no problem.

If someone is "teaching 80%" the way the article implies, then yes, they are doing a dis-service. If they are, they're no better than the "Oh, a 1/2 ton pickup can pull this trailer" people.
__________________
1988 Coleman Sequoia - popup (1987-2009) - outlasted 3 Dodge Grand Caravans!
2012 Roo19 - hybrid (2012-2015)

2016 Mini Lite 2503S - tt (2015 - ???)
2011 Traverse LT, 3.6L, FWD
2009 Silverado 1500 Ext Cab, 5.3L, 4x4, 3.73
2016 Silverado 2500HD Dbl Cab, 6.0L 4x4, 4.10
rockfordroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2016, 11:02 PM   #153
Senior Member
 
Too Tall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 861
A lot of it is individual preference and not so much of the truck's ability. can tolerate a transmission that shifts up and down constantly on overpasses, slight grades etc... I sure these trucks are designed for that but I'm not comfortable with that. So I went to a diesel and lock out OD. My truck will pull everything in 4 or 5th gear short of mount McKinley without downshifting. I know I'm probably over killing it by tow ratings but that's my preference.

Personally, I don't think you can have too much tow capacity.
__________________
Rockwood 2104S, 2014 Ram 2500 Diesel.
USMC 68 -70
Too Tall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2016, 09:51 PM   #154
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockfordroo View Post
This article infers that people will take 80% of their rating and then buy a 5ver at exactly that weight and ignore everything else. It takes a TV, figures 80% of it's capacity, then picks a 5th wheel at that weight, does the calc, and says you've exceeded the 80%. Sure, you can do that, but I don't believe that's what people who say to "stay at 80% margin" mean, and I don't believe that's what Heypapa meant in his post.

I believe what he meant was: buy a 5th wheel (or TT) that, AFTER ALL THE APPROPRIATE MATH IS DONE, INCLUDING ALL APPROPRIATE LOADS (tongue weight, pin weight, "stuff," people), leaves you at 75% (or 80%) of your TV's ratings. This ALWAYS works.

If the article had worked the math backwards to determine what weight 5th wheel, plus other loads, would keep them under the 80% margin, there would be no problem.

If someone is "teaching 80%" the way the article implies, then yes, they are doing a dis-service. If they are, they're no better than the "Oh, a 1/2 ton pickup can pull this trailer" people.
Okay, let’s try it.

Example Trailer: GVWR 13,000 pounds. We’ll load it to 90% capacity. (55% of all RV trailers exceed at least one weight safety rating) Therefore, the expected load weight will be 11,700 pounds. We will now look for a truck to tow that.

So, if we use the 75% rule, then we must find a truck that has a published tow rating of 15,600 pounds. (15,600X.75=11,700)

I then looked at 2016 Ram diesel trucks to find one nearest to but not less than 15.6K max trailer weight rating.

There was only one diesel Ram nearest the 15.6K and the details follows.

2500, CC, LB, 4X4, Max Tow=15960
GCWR=24300
GVWR=10000
GVW=7868

Additional weight:
5th wheel hitch assembly
Cargo=100 pounds
Driver and passenger=335 pounds

After using this info in RV Tow Check, the realistic vehicle towing capacity (RVTC) is 9,646 pounds if the pin weight is at 15%. Jump up to the national average of 20% pin weight, the RVTC drops to 7,235 pounds.

As you see in this example, that rule does not work and the buyer would end up with an underrated truck. Will this rule fail every time? Maybe not. But why take a risk on a rule that may cause a buyer to purchase an underrated truck?
__________________
Dave... and the best half, Amy
Fifth Wheel Street
- An RV safety website

08 Dodge Ram 3500 4X4, Dually, 6.7L Diesel,
B&W Gooseneck with 5th Wheel Companion, Firestone Air Bags,
K&N cold air intake with AEM dry filter
SOB: 09 Cyclone 4012 (GVWR: 20,400#) with Trail Air Tri Glide Air Ride Pin Box, My toy in the garage was a 2008 smart fortwo (1.8K#).
DaveGray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2016, 10:33 PM   #155
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGray View Post
Okay, let’s try it.

Example Trailer: GVWR 13,000 pounds. We’ll load it to 90% capacity. (55% of all RV trailers exceed at least one weight safety rating) Therefore, the expected load weight will be 11,700 pounds. We will now look for a truck to tow that.

So, if we use the 75% rule, then we must find a truck that has a published tow rating of 15,600 pounds. (15,600X.75=11,700)

I then looked at 2016 Ram diesel trucks to find one nearest to but not less than 15.6K max trailer weight rating.

There was only one diesel Ram nearest the 15.6K and the details follows.

2500, CC, LB, 4X4, Max Tow=15960
GCWR=24300
GVWR=10000
GVW=7868

Additional weight:
5th wheel hitch assembly
Cargo=100 pounds
Driver and passenger=335 pounds

After using this info in RV Tow Check, the realistic vehicle towing capacity (RVTC) is 9,646 pounds if the pin weight is at 15%. Jump up to the national average of 20% pin weight, the RVTC drops to 7,235 pounds.

As you see in this example, that rule does not work and the buyer would end up with an underrated truck. Will this rule fail every time? Maybe not. But why take a risk on a rule that may cause a buyer to purchase an underrated truck?
NO! As in the article example, you picked a trailer weight first.

This should be no different than picking a TT based on the 100% limits. You'd do it the same way, only you work with numbers 75% less.

So, what you should be doing is:

Pick a TV. Instead of using 100% rated numbers, figure out it's 75% tow capacity. Subtract whatever you're putting in the TV (payload). Now you know your TT weight limit. Take 75% of your payload capacity and subtract whatever you're putting in the TV. Now you know your tongue (or pin) limit.

NOW you find a trailer with a GVWR and tongue weight that's equal to or less than these limits.
__________________
1988 Coleman Sequoia - popup (1987-2009) - outlasted 3 Dodge Grand Caravans!
2012 Roo19 - hybrid (2012-2015)

2016 Mini Lite 2503S - tt (2015 - ???)
2011 Traverse LT, 3.6L, FWD
2009 Silverado 1500 Ext Cab, 5.3L, 4x4, 3.73
2016 Silverado 2500HD Dbl Cab, 6.0L 4x4, 4.10
rockfordroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2016, 01:46 AM   #156
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockfordroo View Post
So, what you should be doing is:

Pick a TV. Instead of using 100% rated numbers, figure out it's 75% tow capacity. Subtract whatever you're putting in the TV (payload). Now you know your TT weight limit. Take 75% of your payload capacity and subtract whatever you're putting in the TV. Now you know your tongue (or pin) limit.

NOW you find a trailer with a GVWR and tongue weight that's equal to or less than these limits.
Okay, just like an high school teacher would ask, prove your formula. Just as I wrote a detailed explanation, would you be so kind to show me a how the formula you are describing will work for the same Ram 2500 details I provided above?

P.S. The published payload for that truck is 2,130 pounds and the hitch weighs 250 pounds.
__________________
Dave... and the best half, Amy
Fifth Wheel Street
- An RV safety website

08 Dodge Ram 3500 4X4, Dually, 6.7L Diesel,
B&W Gooseneck with 5th Wheel Companion, Firestone Air Bags,
K&N cold air intake with AEM dry filter
SOB: 09 Cyclone 4012 (GVWR: 20,400#) with Trail Air Tri Glide Air Ride Pin Box, My toy in the garage was a 2008 smart fortwo (1.8K#).
DaveGray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2016, 09:23 AM   #157
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,907
OK. Here's what I'd do:

Published tow capacity = 15,960, so 75% = 11,970
Published payload = 2130 so 75% = 1,597

Assume DW = 125 lbs, 2 kids = 150 lbs, stuff = 200 lbs, hitch = 250 lbs, so total 725 lbs.

Now 75% tow capacity drops to 11,970 – 725 = 11,245 lbs
Now 75% payload (TW/Pin weight at this point) drops to 1,597 – 725 lbs = 872 lbs.

So if you ran out and bought a 5vr with a GVWR of 11,245, you’d be at 75% of tow capacity. However, for a 20% pin weight, you’d be at 2,249, which is not only over your reduced payload limit, it’s over the original empty truck payload limit.

As usual, it’s payload that kills you. That’s why you don’t pull a 5ver with a 1/2 ton truck.

Now if I worked backwards from the new payload of 872 lbs, with 20% pin weight, I’d get 4,360 lbs for my 5ver's GVWR (5,813 for 15% for a TT), which DOES seem awfully small, so maybe I AM missing something here.

BUT, if we dropped the whole percentage thing and used the full published numbers, and with same DW, 2 kids, etc:

Now your 5vr would have a GVWR of 15,960 – 725 = 15,235. And for a 20% pin weight, you’d be at 3,047, which of course is WAY over your reduced payload limit, let alone over the original empty truck payload limit.

So it’s still payload that kills you.

Now if I worked backwards from the unreduced payload of 2,130 - 725 = 1,405 lbs, with 20% pin weight, I’d get 7,025 lbs, (for 15% for a TT, you’d get 9,366) which DOES seems reasonable to me.
__________________
1988 Coleman Sequoia - popup (1987-2009) - outlasted 3 Dodge Grand Caravans!
2012 Roo19 - hybrid (2012-2015)

2016 Mini Lite 2503S - tt (2015 - ???)
2011 Traverse LT, 3.6L, FWD
2009 Silverado 1500 Ext Cab, 5.3L, 4x4, 3.73
2016 Silverado 2500HD Dbl Cab, 6.0L 4x4, 4.10
rockfordroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2016, 09:34 AM   #158
Mod free 5er
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Concord, NC
Posts: 24,705
And we all know if you go 1# over payload, GVWR, etc the vehicle will literally fall apart. That's why you see so many cars with 5 or 6 200# people in them sitting along side the road with the car broken in pcs.

There is absolutely no safety factors built into the payload, GVWR etc.
__________________
OldCoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2016, 09:42 AM   #159
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 2,024
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjSpeedwagon View Post
I did not say the static placks are misleading. I stated a lot of information on this forum pertaining to pick ups and trailers are misleading. If you are gonna try and match wits with me get your info straight. I'm done babe. It's just you and judge judy
I always thought that 'Plack' was what is in your teeth prior to brushing and 'Plaque' was a printed statement.....but I could be mistaken....
SidecarFlip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2016, 09:51 AM   #160
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjSpeedwagon View Post
I did not say the static placks are misleading. I stated a lot of information on this forum pertaining to pick ups and trailers are misleading. If you are gonna try and match wits with me get your info straight. I'm done babe. It's just you and judge judy
Quote:
Originally Posted by SidecarFlip View Post
I always thought that 'Plack' was what is in your teeth prior to brushing and 'Plaque' was a printed statement.....but I could be mistaken....
Yeah, I even spelled it right for him once, before he got nasty, but I guess he just has more wits than I do.
__________________
1988 Coleman Sequoia - popup (1987-2009) - outlasted 3 Dodge Grand Caravans!
2012 Roo19 - hybrid (2012-2015)

2016 Mini Lite 2503S - tt (2015 - ???)
2011 Traverse LT, 3.6L, FWD
2009 Silverado 1500 Ext Cab, 5.3L, 4x4, 3.73
2016 Silverado 2500HD Dbl Cab, 6.0L 4x4, 4.10
rockfordroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Forest River, Inc. or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:33 AM.