RV News RVBusiness 2021 Top 10 RVs of the Year, plus 56 additional debuts and must-see units → ×


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-05-2016, 10:09 AM   #161
Phat Phrog Stunt Team
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: South West PA
Posts: 3,011
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCoot View Post
And we all know if you go 1# over payload, GVWR, etc the vehicle will literally fall apart. That's why you see so many cars with 5 or 6 200# people in them sitting along side the road with the car broken in pcs.

There is absolutely no safety factors built into the payload, GVWR etc.
I love it
grayfox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2016, 04:03 PM   #162
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockfordroo View Post
OK. Here's what I'd do:

Published tow capacity = 15,960, so 75% = 11,970
Published payload = 2130 so 75% = 1,597

Assume DW = 125 lbs, 2 kids = 150 lbs, stuff = 200 lbs, hitch = 250 lbs, so total 725 lbs.

Now 75% tow capacity drops to 11,970 – 725 = 11,245 lbs
Now 75% payload (TW/Pin weight at this point) drops to 1,597 – 725 lbs = 872 lbs.

So if you ran out and bought a 5vr with a GVWR of 11,245, you’d be at 75% of tow capacity. However, for a 20% pin weight, you’d be at 2,249, which is not only over your reduced payload limit, it’s over the original empty truck payload limit.

As usual, it’s payload that kills you. That’s why you don’t pull a 5ver with a 1/2 ton truck.

Now if I worked backwards from the new payload of 872 lbs, with 20% pin weight, I’d get 4,360 lbs for my 5ver's GVWR (5,813 for 15% for a TT), which DOES seem awfully small, so maybe I AM missing something here.

BUT, if we dropped the whole percentage thing and used the full published numbers, and with same DW, 2 kids, etc:

Now your 5vr would have a GVWR of 15,960 – 725 = 15,235. And for a 20% pin weight, you’d be at 3,047, which of course is WAY over your reduced payload limit, let alone over the original empty truck payload limit.

So it’s still payload that kills you.

Now if I worked backwards from the unreduced payload of 2,130 - 725 = 1,405 lbs, with 20% pin weight, I’d get 7,025 lbs, (for 15% for a TT, you’d get 9,366) which DOES seems reasonable to me.
Thanks. I appreciate your explanation.

I used the load weights you provided and plugged them into RV Tow Check.

The RVTC at 20% is 7,035 pounds for a 5th wheel. Only 10 pounds more than your bottom example. Your one example is extremely low and the formula may unnecessarily suggest a one ton truck.

The RVTC at 15% is 11,046 for a conventional trailer. That allows 1,680 more pounds to tow than your example. Drop the TW to 12%, then this truck configuration could safely tow up to 13,808 pounds. I believe that using a 75% margin for payload is too much. Maybe unnecessary.

The certification label weight rating already includes a small percentage of safety margin. I don't know of any reason that vehicle would be unsafe if it was towing up to the certification label limits. Regardless, 60% of tow vehicles exceed at least one of the weight safety ratings.

I do not like, nor will ever recommend these kinds so called simplified percentage margins. There are too many variables from one family to the next.

There are currently only two calculators online that work correctly and follow the SAE J2807 guidelines. One of which I already mentioned.

RVers looking to know what their vehicle can safely tow are far better off using these calculators than any other resource or percentage method.

I agree with this OP quote from red.jimbo: "In fact, I have found that there is only one expert on this entire forum which is even remotely qualified to answer that question, and I strongly suggest you only expect a reliable answer to that question from this one member. That member is you."

Therefore, each member has the choice to choose wisely what method to use.
__________________
Dave... and the best half, Amy
Fifth Wheel Street
- An RV safety website

08 Dodge Ram 3500 4X4, Dually, 6.7L Diesel,
B&W Gooseneck with 5th Wheel Companion, Firestone Air Bags,
K&N cold air intake with AEM dry filter
SOB: 09 Cyclone 4012 (GVWR: 20,400#) with Trail Air Tri Glide Air Ride Pin Box, My toy in the garage was a 2008 smart fortwo (1.8K#).
DaveGray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2016, 05:06 PM   #163
Coachman 312BHDS
 
tbln930's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 273
In many cases you don't pull a large 5er or toy hauler with a 3/4 ton truck either. You are into duelly territory. I just went through this on a 42' 5er and SRW just isn't even close yet that is the vehicle of choice on the road.
__________________
2017 Open Range Roamer RF376FBH 42' fifth wheel
2016 F-350 Lariat SCrew 6.7L Turbo Diesel SRW - Extang Fold-up Hard tonneau cover - Husky 16k Fifth Wheel Hitch
tbln930 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2016, 07:26 PM   #164
Senior Member
 
CaptnJohn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Eastern NC
Posts: 3,831
Most are aware payload is 1st to go. I always suggest starting from there. If one subtracts realistic truck cargo and 12% of the remainder for safety margin I have yet to find 1 that the rest of the numbers do not fall in line with a 250-350 or dually.
__________________
2019 Montana 3761 FL
2019 F350 6.7 4X4 LB Dually
Edgewater 205 EX 150 Yamaha
CaptnJohn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2016, 07:55 PM   #165
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 447
I would change the title from:
"A Fool-Proof Method for Judging your Tow Vehicle"
To
"A Thoughtful Method, among methods you need, for Judging your Tow Vehicle."
Then start with "These steps you can take will increase the likelihood you will form an accurate opinion. And make a good, safe, and appropriate decision."

Basically, we make decisions, take actions, and form opinions based on what we know and believe to be true. (Con artists are exceptions) If we knew we were wrong we wouldn't take an action or stand on our opinions, we would make different ones. Often we don't consider the source of advice other than we like the person and decide to trust them based on appearances.

Experienced people are often one of the best sources of information, but often their experiences are only partially relevant, so we need multiple sources thoughtfully vetted and we need to learn some of the technical knowledge as well.

We need to be sure we have considered all the truly relevant issues. Buying a new unit without considering the occc, and without knowing much about the construction and build quality process ,are some of the common relevant issues commonly not considered by new buyers.

In this case, some of our must knows are payload capacity, axle capacities, and obtaining actual scale weights.
Philos3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2016, 12:41 PM   #166
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,363
Instead of all of this 80% crap and max trailer weight publications... people need to focus on one thing and one thing only: available cargo.

Weigh the truck and subtract from GVWR. This is your available cargo.

The available cargo should be greater than 15% of a tag trailer's actual weight or greater than 25% of a 5ver/goose-neck's actual weight.

Done.
325BH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2016, 02:33 PM   #167
Site Team - Lou
 
Herk7769's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: South Eastern PA
Posts: 22,873
Quote:
Originally Posted by 325BH View Post
Instead of all of this 80% crap and max trailer weight publications... people need to focus on one thing and one thing only: available cargo.

Weigh the truck and subtract from GVWR. This is your available cargo.

The available cargo should be greater than 15% of a tag trailer's actual weight or greater than 25% of a 5ver/goose-neck's actual weight.

Done.
This is the best and most accurate advice on the subject, IMO.
__________________
Lou, Laura, & Freya the wonder dog
2008 GMC Sierra 3000HD Crewcab SB Allison Duramax
2019 Flagstaff 8529FLS - Pullrite 3300
HAM CALLSIGN - KC3FFW
Herk7769 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2016, 07:30 PM   #168
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by 325BH View Post
Instead of all of this 80% crap and max trailer weight publications... people need to focus on one thing and one thing only: available cargo.

Weigh the truck and subtract from GVWR. This is your available cargo.

The available cargo should be greater than 15% of a tag trailer's actual weight or greater than 25% of a 5ver/goose-neck's actual weight.

Done.
I think some people (salemen?) are telling other people that if their TT's weight (hopefully they use GVWR and not dry wt) is less than 80% of the TV's "tow capacity" then they will be alright. A kind of "rule of thumb" or "short hand" analysis so you don't have to do a REAL analysis. So I think the INTENT of the article was to show this is not a good idea. But the article did it backwards, which I think is a bad idea! It should have showed you HOW to calculate your weights, not show you "why it doesn't work," which it didn't do very well.
__________________
1988 Coleman Sequoia - popup (1987-2009) - outlasted 3 Dodge Grand Caravans!
2012 Roo19 - hybrid (2012-2015)

2016 Mini Lite 2503S - tt (2015 - ???)
2011 Traverse LT, 3.6L, FWD
2009 Silverado 1500 Ext Cab, 5.3L, 4x4, 3.73
2016 Silverado 2500HD Dbl Cab, 6.0L 4x4, 4.10
rockfordroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 10:54 AM   #169
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by 325BH View Post
Instead of all of this 80% crap and max trailer weight publications... people need to focus on one thing and one thing only: available cargo.

Weigh the truck and subtract from GVWR. This is your available cargo.

The available cargo should be greater than 15% of a tag trailer's actual weight or greater than 25% of a 5ver/goose-neck's actual weight.

Done.
Please explain how that's going to work when a person is buying a new truck and they don't have a clue how much it will weigh when it is made tow ready?
__________________
Dave... and the best half, Amy
Fifth Wheel Street
- An RV safety website

08 Dodge Ram 3500 4X4, Dually, 6.7L Diesel,
B&W Gooseneck with 5th Wheel Companion, Firestone Air Bags,
K&N cold air intake with AEM dry filter
SOB: 09 Cyclone 4012 (GVWR: 20,400#) with Trail Air Tri Glide Air Ride Pin Box, My toy in the garage was a 2008 smart fortwo (1.8K#).
DaveGray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 11:12 AM   #170
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockfordroo View Post
I think some people (salemen?) are telling other people that if their TT's weight (hopefully they use GVWR and not dry wt) is less than 80% of the TV's "tow capacity" then they will be alright. A kind of "rule of thumb" or "short hand" analysis so you don't have to do a REAL analysis. So I think the INTENT of the article was to show this is not a good idea. But the article did it backwards, which I think is a bad idea! It should have showed you HOW to calculate your weights, not show you "why it doesn't work," which it didn't do very well.
The last sentence in the article directs the reader to RV Tow Check. If any one wants to know the details of the calculation process, all the have to do is sturdy the FAQ page at RV Tow Check.

RV newbies don't have a clue where to start. There are so many different so called short-cut ideas that RVers have come up with and they still haven't done anything prevent 60% of buyers from mismatching their rig.

As I said above, "There are currently only two calculators online that work correctly and follow the SAE J2807 guidelines."

Please tell me, what are your reasons for not recommending RV Tow Check?
__________________
Dave... and the best half, Amy
Fifth Wheel Street
- An RV safety website

08 Dodge Ram 3500 4X4, Dually, 6.7L Diesel,
B&W Gooseneck with 5th Wheel Companion, Firestone Air Bags,
K&N cold air intake with AEM dry filter
SOB: 09 Cyclone 4012 (GVWR: 20,400#) with Trail Air Tri Glide Air Ride Pin Box, My toy in the garage was a 2008 smart fortwo (1.8K#).
DaveGray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 11:33 AM   #171
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,907
One problem with RVTC is that it wants my GVWR. For my 2016 Silverado 2500HD, I have not been able to find it. The owners manual talks all about it, and says it MAY be found on the tire label on the B pillar. But it's not on mine. Can't find it anywhere. Googling for it brings back "9,300-9,900 lbs" but no clue where it's coming from.

Guess I'd have to weigh the truck then add the 2906 lbs of payload to know it.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Payload.jpg
Views:	78
Size:	301.8 KB
ID:	124968  
__________________
1988 Coleman Sequoia - popup (1987-2009) - outlasted 3 Dodge Grand Caravans!
2012 Roo19 - hybrid (2012-2015)

2016 Mini Lite 2503S - tt (2015 - ???)
2011 Traverse LT, 3.6L, FWD
2009 Silverado 1500 Ext Cab, 5.3L, 4x4, 3.73
2016 Silverado 2500HD Dbl Cab, 6.0L 4x4, 4.10
rockfordroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 11:50 AM   #172
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockfordroo View Post
One problem with RVTC is that it wants my GVWR. For my 2016 Silverado 2500HD, I have not been able to find it. The owners manual talks all about it, and says it MAY be found on the tire label on the B pillar. But it's not on mine. Can't find it anywhere. Googling for it brings back "9,300-9,900 lbs" but no clue where it's coming from.

Guess I'd have to weigh the truck then add the 2906 lbs of payload to know it.


The GVWR should be on the other sticker on your pillar.

My friends Chevrolet 2500 which is like a 2014 or something has a GVWR of 9,700 if I remember correctly. It was close to the 10,000 which I thought was standard for 3/4 tons nowadays.

Look on the other sticker. It will be there.
325BH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 11:56 AM   #173
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGray View Post
Please explain how that's going to work when a person is buying a new truck and they don't have a clue how much it will weigh when it is made tow ready?


Weigh it. Load the family and go weigh it. Can estimate any extra gear. That will get one pretty darn close. Much better than this 80% guessing game.

For the camper, use the GVWR as the trailer weight. Apply 15% for TT and 25% for 5ver.
325BH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 11:56 AM   #174
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockfordroo View Post
One problem with RVTC is that it wants my GVWR. For my 2016 Silverado 2500HD, I have not been able to find it. The owners manual talks all about it, and says it MAY be found on the tire label on the B pillar. But it's not on mine. Can't find it anywhere. Googling for it brings back "9,300-9,900 lbs" but no clue where it's coming from.

Guess I'd have to weigh the truck then add the 2906 lbs of payload to know it.

There is a little instruction bullet (i) next to the GVWR entry that explains where to locate the GVWR.

GVWR and GAWRs are on the Certification Label near your driver's side door. It is required to be there by federal law.

Looks something like this.

__________________
Dave... and the best half, Amy
Fifth Wheel Street
- An RV safety website

08 Dodge Ram 3500 4X4, Dually, 6.7L Diesel,
B&W Gooseneck with 5th Wheel Companion, Firestone Air Bags,
K&N cold air intake with AEM dry filter
SOB: 09 Cyclone 4012 (GVWR: 20,400#) with Trail Air Tri Glide Air Ride Pin Box, My toy in the garage was a 2008 smart fortwo (1.8K#).
DaveGray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 12:12 PM   #175
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by 325BH View Post
Weigh it. Load the family and go weigh it. Can estimate any extra gear. That will get one pretty darn close. Much better than this 80% guessing game.

For the camper, use the GVWR as the trailer weight. Apply 15% for TT and 25% for 5ver.
That method won't work out so well for one ton dually trucks that have a lot of payload capacity. The method you propose would exceed most, it not all, GCWRs for TTs.

Example: GVWR (14,000)-GVW (8672) = Available Payload (5328)

5th Wheel: 21,312
TT: 35,520

GCWR: 33,800

That's the reason that J2807 requires two formulas to calculate for GVWR and GCWR.
__________________
Dave... and the best half, Amy
Fifth Wheel Street
- An RV safety website

08 Dodge Ram 3500 4X4, Dually, 6.7L Diesel,
B&W Gooseneck with 5th Wheel Companion, Firestone Air Bags,
K&N cold air intake with AEM dry filter
SOB: 09 Cyclone 4012 (GVWR: 20,400#) with Trail Air Tri Glide Air Ride Pin Box, My toy in the garage was a 2008 smart fortwo (1.8K#).
DaveGray is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 12:16 PM   #176
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGray View Post
That method won't work out so well for one ton dually trucks that have a lot of payload capacity. The method you propose would exceed most, it not all, GCWRs for TTs.



Example: GVWR (14,000)-GVW (8672) = Available Payload (5328)



5th Wheel: 21,312

TT: 35,520



GCWR: 33,800



That's the reason that J2807 requires two formulas to calculate for GVWR and GCWR.


For people that understand what is going on, sure... we use all the numbers.

This thread has been geared towards folks that are overwhelmed by all the numbers... to which I was giving an idea.
325BH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 12:21 PM   #177
Always Learning
 
ependydad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Four Corners, FL
Posts: 20,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by 325BH View Post
Weigh it. Load the family and go weigh it. Can estimate any extra gear. That will get one pretty darn close. Much better than this 80% guessing game.

For the camper, use the GVWR as the trailer weight. Apply 15% for TT and 25% for 5ver.
On a test drive?
__________________
2018 Ram 3500 DRW/crew cab/long bed/4x4/4.10 gears pulling a 2017 Spartan 1245 by Prime Time
Checkout my site for RVing tips, tricks, and info | Was a Fulltime Family for 5 years, now we're settlin' down for a spell
ependydad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 01:18 PM   #178
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,363
Quote:
Originally Posted by ependydad View Post
On a test drive?


I completely missed your point about buying a new truck. I was thinking buying a camper.

If you can't weigh it, about all you. Can go by is the payload sticker... adjusted slightly for family and gear.
325BH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 01:51 PM   #179
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 10,907
The only sticker on my driver's door is the one I posted.
__________________
1988 Coleman Sequoia - popup (1987-2009) - outlasted 3 Dodge Grand Caravans!
2012 Roo19 - hybrid (2012-2015)

2016 Mini Lite 2503S - tt (2015 - ???)
2011 Traverse LT, 3.6L, FWD
2009 Silverado 1500 Ext Cab, 5.3L, 4x4, 3.73
2016 Silverado 2500HD Dbl Cab, 6.0L 4x4, 4.10
rockfordroo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2016, 02:06 PM   #180
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 447
"Weigh it." On a test drive?

I recognize the purchase process is sort of overwhelming for some people. I do know that when a contract is placed in front of me me to sign, and I tell them I need some time to read the contract...I get unhappy reactions.

Really, that doesn't concern me. I think you have to be strong and push them to get what you want, including changes to the contract and provisions you want inserted, take it to get it weighed, do your own PDI and not leave until all items have been cleared.

However, if you want them to throw you out or stop sending you emails, just ask them to insert a Lemon Law provision into the contract that covers the house portion.
Philos3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by Forest River, Inc. or any of its affiliates. This is an independent, unofficial site.



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:44 PM.