A Fool-Proof Method for Judging your Tow Vehicle

[tbln930]

So if you pay twice as much for the bigger truck your pocket book is happier. I think you need to rethink this entire line of reasoning - a lot. Fewer repairs? See the trouble with generalities? They are nearly always incorrect.

Originally Posted by Heypapa

No, I simply stated take your the gross vehicle tow rating and calculate 75% of that number. Makes for a happier me, happier truck and happier pocket book with fewer repairs and tow fees.

[OldCoot]

Boy!! The KoolAid is going down fast!

[tbln930]

I am just toying with him. Every RV forum has size addicts. They keep buying and pushing bigger RVs and bigger trucks to pull them. Pretty soon we will be hauling our entire house with us. lol When they finally get to the other side they realize they just wanted something different. believe it or not there is now a market of class A folks headed back to microvans. Miniature High-Efficiency Motorhomes. They can go everywhere the these huge monstrosities can't. You are not upgrading - you are just traveling around the circle.

[CaptnJohn]

Originally Posted by tbln930

I am just toying with him. Every RV forum has size addicts. They keep buying and pushing bigger RVs and bigger trucks to pull them. Pretty soon we will be hauling our entire house with us. lol When they finally get to the other side they realize they just wanted something different. believe it or not there is now a market of class A folks headed back to microvans. Miniature High-Efficiency Motorhomes. They can go everywhere the these huge monstrosities can't. You are not upgrading - you are just traveling around the circle.

Most with a size problem is because whatever the subject theirs is small. I have pulled with a Ford Ranger and several 1/2 ton trucks. Only 1 was at max for a couple pulls until TV was upgraded. A person can tow sane with a VW or foolish with a semi. Of course that does not hold true for those with a bigger ego than truck or anything else.

[Heypapa]

OK, I'm out. Just wanted too give advice through my own trials and tribulations. Obviously I know nothing.

[W5CI]

I am no Engineer or Math Professor so I just bought a RAM 3500 DRW to tow my 5er. I am smart enough to not try it with a 1/2 ton

[Heypapa]

So much sarcasm and attitude with expletive on this site. I'm done. Good luck to all.

[tbln930]

Well my TV when loaded with gear, etc. on a Cat scale is hugging the 4050 lb rear axle limit but bit below payload and 20% below the towing capacity when pulling my TT. My brother-in-law with his Platinum F250 and a 39' Keystone Sprinter 5er is over payload by about 350 lbs loaded on the very same Cat scale. I do agree that a DRW F350 class truck is needed for most larger 5er's but I see mainly F250 class trucks pulling them. My dealer told me a while back that about 80% of the F250s he sees are overloaded pulling 5ers. He says many need a DRW F350/3500 class and don't know it.

[rockfordroo]

Originally Posted by Heypapa

So much sarcasm and attitude with expletive on this site. I'm done. Good luck to all.

Heypapa:

As any woman would probably understand, this particular subject seems to attract a lot of machismo, strutting and such, particularly from people trying to rationalize their lack of margin in a tow vehicle (just watch how I get lambasted for this post!). You just have to roll with it. I just break out another bag of popcorn and get my feet in the air (because sometimes the you-know-what gets pretty deep) while reading these posts!

[BigLou80]

Originally Posted by tbln930

I am just toying with him. Every RV forum has size addicts. They keep buying and pushing bigger RVs and bigger trucks to pull them. Pretty soon we will be hauling our entire house with us. lol When they finally get to the other side they realize they just wanted something different. believe it or not there is now a market of class A folks headed back to microvans. Miniature High-Efficiency Motorhomes. They can go everywhere the these huge monstrosities can't. You are not upgrading - you are just traveling around the circle.

I'm the guy who despite having a 2500HD duramax purposely sought out a Roo183 just because I like camping and not RVing and wanted to be able to get it in to places a 30' travel trailer dared not go. You should have seen the looks on various sales mens faces when in an attempt to upgrade me (becaue 183's are rare) by asking " what can you tow" and I replied with " almost anything on the lot"

All that being said a 3/4 ton truck is so much more capable in all aspects than a 1/2 ton truck leaving the gas/diesel debate aside. So it's my opinion that if you're routinely towing more then 65%-75% of your vehicles rated capacity why not upgrade. It's probably cheaper than the additonal wear and tear and adding all the crap a half ton truck needs anyhow.

I have a weight carrying hitch, none of this expensive complicated weight distributing crap, the brakes on my truck can stop an additional 5,000 pounds without issue as long as it's not sudden ( yes I have a brake controller) I have no fears of scales or weight police becuase I know im well within my limits regardless of how much gear and water I have on board. The additional weight of the truck keeps me from ever feeling pushed around by the trailer. I could go on but I think I've made my point

[DaveGray]

Originally Posted by Heypapa

No, I simply stated take your the gross vehicle tow rating and calculate 75% of that number. Makes for a happier me, happier truck and happier pocket book with fewer repairs and tow fees.

Nice idea for years. Some have said 80%. The problem is, it doesn't always work. This article explains why.

Is the 80% Towing Rule Safe?

[rockfordroo]

Originally Posted by Heypapa

No, I simply stated take your the gross vehicle tow rating and calculate 75% of that number. Makes for a happier me, happier truck and happier pocket book with fewer repairs and tow fees.

Originally Posted by DaveGray

Nice idea for years. Some have said 80%. The problem is, it doesn't always work. This article explains why.

Is the 80% Towing Rule Safe?

This article infers that people will take 80% of their rating and then buy a 5ver at exactly that weight and ignore everything else. It takes a TV, figures 80% of it's capacity, then picks a 5th wheel at that weight, does the calc, and says you've exceeded the 80%. Sure, you can do that, but I don't believe that's what people who say to "stay at 80% margin" mean, and I don't believe that's what Heypapa meant in his post.

I believe what he meant was: buy a 5th wheel (or TT) that, AFTER ALL THE APPROPRIATE MATH IS DONE, INCLUDING ALL APPROPRIATE LOADS (tongue weight, pin weight, "stuff," people), leaves you at 75% (or 80%) of your TV's ratings. This ALWAYS works.

If the article had worked the math backwards to determine what weight 5th wheel, plus other loads, would keep them under the 80% margin, there would be no problem.

If someone is "teaching 80%" the way the article implies, then yes, they are doing a dis-service. If they are, they're no better than the "Oh, a 1/2 ton pickup can pull this trailer" people.

[Too Tall]

A lot of it is individual preference and not so much of the truck's ability. can tolerate a transmission that shifts up and down constantly on overpasses, slight grades etc... I sure these trucks are designed for that but I'm not comfortable with that. So I went to a diesel and lock out OD. My truck will pull everything in 4 or 5th gear short of mount McKinley without downshifting. I know I'm probably over killing it by tow ratings but that's my preference.

Personally, I don't think you can have too much tow capacity.

[DaveGray]

Originally Posted by rockfordroo

This article infers that people will take 80% of their rating and then buy a 5ver at exactly that weight and ignore everything else. It takes a TV, figures 80% of it's capacity, then picks a 5th wheel at that weight, does the calc, and says you've exceeded the 80%. Sure, you can do that, but I don't believe that's what people who say to "stay at 80% margin" mean, and I don't believe that's what Heypapa meant in his post.

I believe what he meant was: buy a 5th wheel (or TT) that, AFTER ALL THE APPROPRIATE MATH IS DONE, INCLUDING ALL APPROPRIATE LOADS (tongue weight, pin weight, "stuff," people), leaves you at 75% (or 80%) of your TV's ratings. This ALWAYS works.

If the article had worked the math backwards to determine what weight 5th wheel, plus other loads, would keep them under the 80% margin, there would be no problem.

If someone is "teaching 80%" the way the article implies, then yes, they are doing a dis-service. If they are, they're no better than the "Oh, a 1/2 ton pickup can pull this trailer" people.

Okay, let’s try it.

Example Trailer: GVWR 13,000 pounds. We’ll load it to 90% capacity. (55% of all RV trailers exceed at least one weight safety rating) Therefore, the expected load weight will be 11,700 pounds. We will now look for a truck to tow that.

So, if we use the 75% rule, then we must find a truck that has a published tow rating of 15,600 pounds. (15,600X.75=11,700)

I then looked at 2016 Ram diesel trucks to find one nearest to but not less than 15.6K max trailer weight rating.

There was only one diesel Ram nearest the 15.6K and the details follows.

2500, CC, LB, 4X4, Max Tow=15960
GCWR=24300
GVWR=10000
GVW=7868

Additional weight:
5th wheel hitch assembly
Cargo=100 pounds
Driver and passenger=335 pounds

After using this info in RV Tow Check, the realistic vehicle towing capacity (RVTC) is 9,646 pounds if the pin weight is at 15%. Jump up to the national average of 20% pin weight, the RVTC drops to 7,235 pounds.

As you see in this example, that rule does not work and the buyer would end up with an underrated truck. Will this rule fail every time? Maybe not. But why take a risk on a rule that may cause a buyer to purchase an underrated truck?

[rockfordroo]

Originally Posted by DaveGray

Okay, let’s try it.

Example Trailer: GVWR 13,000 pounds. We’ll load it to 90% capacity. (55% of all RV trailers exceed at least one weight safety rating) Therefore, the expected load weight will be 11,700 pounds. We will now look for a truck to tow that.

So, if we use the 75% rule, then we must find a truck that has a published tow rating of 15,600 pounds. (15,600X.75=11,700)

I then looked at 2016 Ram diesel trucks to find one nearest to but not less than 15.6K max trailer weight rating.

There was only one diesel Ram nearest the 15.6K and the details follows.

2500, CC, LB, 4X4, Max Tow=15960
GCWR=24300
GVWR=10000
GVW=7868

Additional weight:
5th wheel hitch assembly
Cargo=100 pounds
Driver and passenger=335 pounds

After using this info in RV Tow Check, the realistic vehicle towing capacity (RVTC) is 9,646 pounds if the pin weight is at 15%. Jump up to the national average of 20% pin weight, the RVTC drops to 7,235 pounds.

As you see in this example, that rule does not work and the buyer would end up with an underrated truck. Will this rule fail every time? Maybe not. But why take a risk on a rule that may cause a buyer to purchase an underrated truck?

NO! As in the article example, you picked a trailer weight first.

This should be no different than picking a TT based on the 100% limits. You'd do it the same way, only you work with numbers 75% less.

So, what you should be doing is:

Pick a TV. Instead of using 100% rated numbers, figure out it's 75% tow capacity. Subtract whatever you're putting in the TV (payload). Now you know your TT weight limit. Take 75% of your payload capacity and subtract whatever you're putting in the TV. Now you know your tongue (or pin) limit.

NOW you find a trailer with a GVWR and tongue weight that's equal to or less than these limits.

[DaveGray]

Originally Posted by rockfordroo

So, what you should be doing is:

Pick a TV. Instead of using 100% rated numbers, figure out it's 75% tow capacity. Subtract whatever you're putting in the TV (payload). Now you know your TT weight limit. Take 75% of your payload capacity and subtract whatever you're putting in the TV. Now you know your tongue (or pin) limit.

NOW you find a trailer with a GVWR and tongue weight that's equal to or less than these limits.

Okay, just like an high school teacher would ask, prove your formula. Just as I wrote a detailed explanation, would you be so kind to show me a how the formula you are describing will work for the same Ram 2500 details I provided above?

P.S. The published payload for that truck is 2,130 pounds and the hitch weighs 250 pounds.

[rockfordroo]

OK. Here's what I'd do:

Published tow capacity = 15,960, so 75% = 11,970
Published payload = 2130 so 75% = 1,597

Assume DW = 125 lbs, 2 kids = 150 lbs, stuff = 200 lbs, hitch = 250 lbs, so total 725 lbs.

Now 75% tow capacity drops to 11,970 – 725 = 11,245 lbs
Now 75% payload (TW/Pin weight at this point) drops to 1,597 – 725 lbs = 872 lbs.

So if you ran out and bought a 5vr with a GVWR of 11,245, you’d be at 75% of tow capacity. However, for a 20% pin weight, you’d be at 2,249, which is not only over your reduced payload limit, it’s over the original empty truck payload limit.

As usual, it’s payload that kills you. That’s why you don’t pull a 5ver with a 1/2 ton truck.

Now if I worked backwards from the new payload of 872 lbs, with 20% pin weight, I’d get 4,360 lbs for my 5ver's GVWR (5,813 for 15% for a TT), which DOES seem awfully small, so maybe I AM missing something here.

BUT, if we dropped the whole percentage thing and used the full published numbers, and with same DW, 2 kids, etc:

Now your 5vr would have a GVWR of 15,960 – 725 = 15,235. And for a 20% pin weight, you’d be at 3,047, which of course is WAY over your reduced payload limit, let alone over the original empty truck payload limit.

So it’s still payload that kills you.

Now if I worked backwards from the unreduced payload of 2,130 - 725 = 1,405 lbs, with 20% pin weight, I’d get 7,025 lbs, (for 15% for a TT, you’d get 9,366) which DOES seems reasonable to me.

[OldCoot]

And we all know if you go 1# over payload, GVWR, etc the vehicle will literally fall apart. That's why you see so many cars with 5 or 6 200# people in them sitting along side the road with the car broken in pcs.

There is absolutely no safety factors built into the payload, GVWR etc.

[SidecarFlip]

Originally Posted by jjSpeedwagon

I did not say the static placks are misleading. I stated a lot of information on this forum pertaining to pick ups and trailers are misleading. If you are gonna try and match wits with me get your info straight. I'm done babe. It's just you and judge judy

I always thought that 'Plack' was what is in your teeth prior to brushing and 'Plaque' was a printed statement.....but I could be mistaken....

[rockfordroo]

Originally Posted by jjSpeedwagon

I did not say the static placks are misleading. I stated a lot of information on this forum pertaining to pick ups and trailers are misleading. If you are gonna try and match wits with me get your info straight. I'm done babe. It's just you and judge judy

Originally Posted by SidecarFlip

I always thought that 'Plack' was what is in your teeth prior to brushing and 'Plaque' was a printed statement.....but I could be mistaken....

Yeah, I even spelled it right for him once, before he got nasty, but I guess he just has more wits than I do.